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Zombie Dogs CD

Discussion in 'Witch Doctor' started by Dnttryme, Apr 28, 2012. | Replies: 35 | Views: 3870

  1. Dnttryme

    Dnttryme Banned

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    Zombie Dogs CD

    Does the zombie dogs CD seem too long to anyone else? With Life Link and Sacrifice it doesnt seem like the dogs are going to last long, and with the fast paced combat of D3, a lot can happen in 60sec.
  2. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Indeed, but Zombie Dogs last indefinitely until killed, so the 60 sec CD probably isn't going to be as bad as it sounds.

    The frequency with which you can create Zombie Dogs is probably by design, because it ties directly into how strong Sacrifice is.

    In any case, Dogs are just another form of CC, like Horrify. You can't have a no-cooldown Horrify (or almost nothing could kill you), and likewise, there'll need to be times when your Dogs aren't available to distract enemies for you - that's why it's got a 60-second cooldown. Because Dogs are a form of CC that lasts much longer than Horrify.

    That said, I think that MOST of the time, not all your Dogs are going to be dying before the cooldown comes back up - that'll only happen on occassion, for particularly tough fights.
  3. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Sacrifice builds got other ways to get dogs spawns in PvE. When it comes to life link i would say that the rune is aimed towards PvP. Life link and for the master rune for sacrifice and it would look like it will be good combination for arenas. Damage soak and big burst heal that deals burst damage as well. Can't have too short CD on that.
  4. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    I played the beta and it seems like the dogs go down really fast when they meet unique packs or a huge group of monsters.

    I'm not even sure if the skill is viable for the later difficulties, perhaps the Gargantuan is better?
  5. Dnttryme

    Dnttryme Banned

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    This was why I was asking. As soon as a group of monsters showed up that were even just semi powerful, the dogs dropped like flies. Hopefully they scale with gear and levels well because I would like them to be viable end game. I also hope they do something so the dogs cant be AOEd down easily in PvP.


  6. Greymouse

    Greymouse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Referring back up to what z00t posted yesterday, the dogs seem like they're pretty much CC right now. As such, they will likely have end game viability. Even though they don't tank, and they barely bite (even with all the mods you can throw at them), they can tie up regular mobs quite effectively, and serve as a nice early warning system as long as nothing shows up equivalent to a d2 MSLE, or whatever your build happens to be weakest against. Scalability will probably remain effective under that usage.

    Even against champion packs and bosses, if you're sacrificing and can take a few hits while they're afk, they still serve their purpose and are cool to use. With scalability, that means you can use them in inferno as long as you're nuking them against each pack, and using items and grave injustice + (Sac/NextOfKin, BBV/boogieman, and/or MC/devo) to both reduce their cooldowns and proc new dogs during combat.

    Just expect to be cycling thru a lotta dogs. If you need to think of the lil guys as pets and name them and stuff, just pretend it's a reincarnation thing and the same ones are always coming back to play. =]

    As for PVP, i dunno. Correct me if i'm wrong, but they don't interrupt spell/skillcasts and PVP-specced players are going to hit hard, so even CC is out of the question. Unless they're doing damage reduction via rabid dogs + bad medicine that i read someone propose somewhere, or some build that effectively utilizies... lifelink maybe (i'm doubtful, since PVP'ers can probably aoe all of em quick)... they just don't seem viable to me for a pvp build unless you have cd reduction items that can take it down to single digits. Without the numbers for grave injustice, your dogs will always be out of the count for longer periods in the arena.


    Edit: I forgot about thorns + fierce loyalty for PVP... maybe that, depending on what kind of EQ is out there.



  7. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    I think they CD might be too short. You should have the fear of playing petless occasionally due to their death. It's the potential con of their otherwise huge pros.
  8. Darkmere

    Darkmere IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    The dogs seemed alright to me. You just can't sit back and assume they'll do all the work for you, any more than you could rely on any single skill to CC/damage for you. They got groups bunched up for Soul Harvest/Grasp, and kept champions off me long enough to throw more spiders at them.
  9. Smash

    Smash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    You guys are insane, they are dieing like flies when you met any stronger opponent, Skeleton King killed once all my dogs with one WW.
    There should be no cd on them at all. Circle of Life passive was only reason they were bearable in beta and beta is super easy.
    You are limited in spells, why waisting slot on them?


  10. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    If you are not using sacrifice i think they are kinda useless. With sacrifice their role get's total makeover. Dog's weren't really dying apart from SK and if you are using the summon ZD spell you can plan ahead. Summon new dogs 1 min before doing SK and you got new set ready on demand. Grave injustice and helm affix will ease the pain + there are other sources to get dog summons than just the summoning spell alone.
  11. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    The dogs gain durability with level, I believe. Depending on how they scale, they may be very tough in the later difficulties.

    There is one rune affect which directly impacts the dogs' survivability:
    Leeching Beasts, available at level 54, will allow the dogs to regain lost life. The more damage that is dealt, the more life is recovered. This skill is complemented nicely by passive skills such as Gruesome Feast and Pierce the Veil.

    There are three Passive Skills which will affect Zombie Dogs directly:
    1) Jungle Fortitude
    Jungle Fortitude will decrease the damage the dogs take by 20%.

    2) Zombie Handler
    Zombie Handler will increase the durability of the dogs and add one extra dog.

    3) Fierce Loyalty
    Fierce Loyalty will apply thorns and life regeneration equipment bonuses to pets.

    There are several other passives that will complement the dogs indirectly.
    1) Gruesome Feast
    Gruesome Feast will increase the amount of damage the dogs do. Picking up health globes heals the dogs, so choosing skills and equipment which increases health globe drops is important to both the power of the dogs and the dogs' survivabilty.

    2)Bad Medicine
    If enemies are hit by poison damage, they will do less damage to the dogs for 3 seconds afterward. Choosing the Rabid Dogs rune complements this skill quite nicely.

    3)Pierce the Veil
    The dogs will do 20% increased damage, but cost additional mana to summon.

    4) Grave Injustice
    When an enemy dies in close proximity to the character, the cooldown of Zombie Dogs is reduced.
  12. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Will be interesting to see if leeching beasts share synergy with fierce loyalty. That kind of synergy could create some pretty interesting builds.
  13. Darkmere

    Darkmere IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    I'd be disappointed if a starter summoning skill with no/few passives backing them was able to tank a major quest boss. ZD's are crowd control; I assume Gargantuan will be the bigger solo-tank.


  14. Thrakhath

    Thrakhath IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    One of the possible item effects is:

    Summon Zombie Dogs: Cooldown reduced by 1-9 seconds (see the Witch Doctor Skill Affixes thread).

    Obviously this is a small bonus, but definitely enough to make a difference.
  15. Soval

    Soval IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Dogs aren't a one-size-fits-all solution, they are not supposed to be able to handle every situation you come across. Of curse tehy are going to die when they face bosses-- it's up to you the player to compensate for though opponents, not you pets.

    If you need them on demand, if you want them to survive longer, if you need a stead supply for Sacrifice, you will have to go out of your way to pick the right runes and passives that fit those specific roles. It's not just going to happen by itself, you need to make the effort.
  16. Smash

    Smash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    You on purpose ignored my part where i said that they die to mini-bosses and champions too? And what is wrong if they could tank SK to some degree? Barb with bash can nearly stun-lock him, making fight very easy and that is okey?
    They are weak on CC, weak on tankish and very weak on damage add to this ridiculous long cd and we can close the coffin.

    Funny how people ignore how much you have invest into this dogs just to make them VIABLE... when other classes spells are just good to go.

    If we were not limited in spells that maybe wasn't that big deal but it is.


  17. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Smash, why are you hostile towards this idea? If people want to play as a class which focuses mainly on their pets, should they not be allowed to? It's just a playstyle difference. I see no reason why foregoing offensive casting capability for stronger pets would be a bad idea.

    Once you get your pets to a point where they are extremely tough to kill, the usefulness of the skill should be inherent. If the Diablo 2 Necromanacer is anything to go by, the durable pets will be there to distract and damage enemies while you sit back and cast spells in relative safety.

    What this ultimately means is that the WD will not have to equip as many defense-oriented items because the WD has used summons to help with that role. Perhaps the WD can now take some pieces of gear that would otherwise be deemed too risky by a character without durable summons. The gear equipped can have more offensive affixes on it because the pets are the ones who will be taking damage.


    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  18. Darkmere

    Darkmere IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    No, I ignored what you said because I didn't have a problem with dogs dying constantly when I played beta. And I already answered the tank thing, but here it is again: You shouldn't be able to rely on a single spell for every enemy. Barbs can't efficiently bash their way through huge crowds, WD's can't use dogs to tank bosses. "Viable" doesn't mean "the single solution for every problem."


  19. Greymouse

    Greymouse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    I understand what you're suggesting about the investment issue, that if they choose to make a build centered around dogs, they'll end up with a toon that needs two or three different ZD skill selections just to have the same killing power and benefits of maybe a single skill from another class. In that light, it would seem like a major opportunity loss. Because we don't know about some of the higher level skill mechanics, for either the ZD skills, or the alternate ones that one could equip instead, it's hard to debate the issue thoroughly right now.

    Based on the open beta play though, I feel comfortable saying that I think the dogs are actually an effective CC, at least in the early game. I thought they were pretty good. They quickly sought out and aggro'd enemies, were easily able to tank regular mobs, and (at least in my play experience) made the WD less squishy of a caster class in the start game, before equipment adds. By the time the weekend ended, I was happily plowing through mobs, champs and skelly kings with 3 rabid dogs, sacrifice, haunt and splinter darts at the same speed as other classes I made or teamed up with.

    Granted, by then, it was at a higher level than necessary for SK, but it was the mob/boss-clearing speed that was being compared to the other builds. Perceptually, it was just as fast, and didn't feel like the WD was any worse off. Even on the first solo SK kill, when one is getting a real sense of durability (i got to him at level 9 in a non-speed run, randomly exploring and collecting blues, so your mileage may vary), it didn't feel like it was a bad thing to lose the dogs in one or two swipes. When I resummoned them, they effectively kept the skeleton waves off of me, giving me more room to concentrate on SK. CC was effective then. It was just on that initial attack that they gunned for SK with no other targets around. Had to run around the throne room just as much as a wiz or DH during that first cooldown.

    Anyways, I guess we'll see when we have a chance to build these things and find out if any of us are right. =]


  20. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Zombie Dogs CD

    Despite what people saying that dogs are weak, my dogs never died in the beta outside the Leoric fight. Not once. I don't know where this idea came from that we'll need to invest heavily into ZD's to make them viable, but it has no basis in reality so far in my experience.

    If you want to rely on just one defensive skill to stay alive then you should damn well be ready to invest into it, but that's true for any class as I doubt any of them will have a skill that will be a life saver in every single situation you'll encounter in the game.


    Last edited: May 1, 2012

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