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[Guide] WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by hansenvi, Nov 21, 2012. | Replies: 29 | Views: 23245

  1. hansenvi

    hansenvi IncGamers Member

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    I'm sure we all know OH DPS doesn't matter as much on a WW/Tornado Barb, but I was quite amazed when I tested this theory with different weapons, and I just thought I would like to share the results.


    The tests are not conducted under the strictest conditions but should give a rough idea just what is more important, AS or weapon DPS.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LOKziMx2g
  2. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Amazed this post has zero replies. Apparently no one followed the link; for those who haven't, he uses the same mainhand weapon and three different offhand weapons, a 1059.6 dps with 1.3 aps, a 225.6 dps with 1.66aps, and a 14.4 dps with 1.44 aps... and they all kill MP10 Azmodan within 3 seconds of each other.

    Although the results seem surprising, they shouldn't. We've actually had all the information we needed here and here. Key information is:
    1) Run Like the Wind tornadoes always do 20% mainhand weapon damage per tick.
    2) Run Like the Wind tornadoes scale with attack speed, using the previous weapon's attack speed to determine tick frequency.
    3) You can have 4 Run Like the Wind tornadoes active at a time; as the 5th spawns, the 1st dies. (You get less tornadoes than this if you spam Sprint, with best results if you reactivate Sprint just as its duration expires.)
    4) Whirlwind does 48.33% current weapon damage per tick, using the current attack speed, but otherwise scales with attack speed the same as Run Like the Wind.
    5) Just to state the obvious, when dual-wielding you generally alternate hands. The mainhand swings, then the offhand, then the mainhand, et cetera.

    So let's say I have a 1.2aps mainhand and a 1.66aps offhand. That means that 58% of the time I'm swinging with my mainhand and 42% of the time I'm swinging with my offhand; this is because my offhand is much faster and therefore gets its turn done faster. So even if I was using a Bash build, the mainhand DPS would count more than the offhand DPS by almost a 3:2 ratio. For Whirlwind, which uses current weapon damage and speed, this is exactly the case.

    However, Run Like the Wind has very odd mechanics. First off, it always uses the mainhand damage; second, it always uses the previously used weapon's attack speed. So if I'm random about when I activate Sprint, 58% of the time the tornadoes will tick 38% more often. That means that just by using the 1.2/1.66 dual-wield combo, my Sprint tornadoes will do 22% more damage.

    Lastly, the majority of the Whirlwind barb's damage isn't from Whirlwind, but from Run Like the Wind. Four tornadoes ticking for 20% is 80% weapon damage; one whirlwind tick is 48.33%. That means that Run Like the Wind provides 62% of the total real DPS, while Whirlwind accounts for the other 38%... but that's before the 22% increase from the dual-wield combo, which brings the ratio to more like 69% to 31%.

    Now, remember that all of that 69% is mainhand damage, and only 42% of that 31% is off-hand damage. When all is said and done, only 13.88% of a 1.2/1.66 barbarian's real DPS is based on off-hand DPS; a whopping 86.12% is based off main-hand damage.

    So the current math explains the video's results perfectly: All results are pretty close because the mainhand DPS is more than 6 times as important as the offhand DPS. 86% of 1211.7 + 14% of 1059.6 = 1190.41; with 14% of 225.6, = 1073.65; with 14% of 14.4, = 1044.08. The rest is explained by Run Like the Wind mechanics; the 1.66 dagger received the biggest boost, allowing it to perform best, while the 14.4dps weapon still had more aps than the 1059.6 and therefore came close to tying it.

    EDIT: ON ECHOING FURY
    I didn't notice Echoing Fury was the mainhand when writing the above, which changes the math a little.

    I'm not saying Echoing Fury is unusable, but it's severely overrated and definitely looks better on paper than it works in practice. With 1.43/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.554aps; with a 1.2/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.467aps (both before off-weapon attack speed boosts). That's a boost, but it's just under 6% faster. Whirlwind would tick 10% faster, but would factor in the offhand more (46.3%), which with the 225.6dps dagger would only give 4.2% more real DPS overall. When all is said and done, a 1.2aps, 1060dps mace (that is otherwise identical) would do the same amount of real DPS.

    In terms of general Fury management, you'd be ahead too. The total results would be that you'd get 6% less Sprint procs, 10% less Whirlwind procs, and spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. Since 71% of your procs are from Sprint (4 tornadoes at 0.08 = 0.32 vs 0.13 from Whirlwind), you'd proc 7.2% slower overall but spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. With 2.12aps with Echoing Fury on deck, you apparently have 48% attack speed from gear, which means 73% after WotB, which gives you 2.48 aps main and 2.87 aps with a 1.66 off-hand, for a net APS of 2.66, which means you're currently spending 79.8 Fury per 3 seconds, for a total Fury cost of 99.8 per 3 seconds. Saving 10% on your Whirlwinds would bring you to 91.8 Fury per 3 seconds, which is a 8% reduction in costs, making up for the 7.2% reduction in procs.

    The one downside would be Thrive on Chaos; with 8% lower costs and 7.2% less procs, each second of fighting at full DPS would extend the duration less. For fights like MP10 Azmodan, this is irrelevant as you'd still be spending and gaining more than 30 Fury per second, but for MF runs where there are stretches of empty ground it might be relevant.

    Nevertheless, my conclusion is that 1211.7 Echoing Fury < 1090 rare mace. Hope you didn't waste too much money on that sucker.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  3. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    On the other hand, Echoing Fury as an offhand has definite merits. +.25 attacks per second, a socket, strength, and life steal or critical hit damage (take your pick) without having to pay dearly for one with 1100+ dps. If you're using a mace in your main hand, it also makes it whirlwind and sprint tornado attack speed breakpoints less complicated; you'll hit the same breakpoint with both weapons.
  4. Elly

    Elly Administrator

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  5. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Maybe as a budget option. You want insane aps, which admittedly Fury can do with top speeds of 1.68aps... but you also want life leech, crit damage, and socketed, and Fury doesn't have enough random mods for that. An attack-speed Fury is solid offhand but nowhere near best-in-slot.

    (If you haven't figured it out yet, the only thing legendary weapons are good for is gimmicky stuff like fear/knockback/freeze, in terms of pure DPS or farming a rare is BiS for every single build of every single class. Except Chantodo's Wand, it's actually fastest option for Wizard. Maybe one or two will make it in PvP, that's about it.)
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  6. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    In the 50 to 200 million gold range, a ~860 dps, ~165 strength, socketed, 3% life steal, +.25 aps EF was better for my actual applied dps than any dagger or sword available. For comparison, my previous offhand was a 194% crit damage ~680 dps dagger with 1.5 aps. I think in the calculator I gained ~20% applied dps. This may or may not be because my other gear isn't fantastic enough to make that extra 90-100 crit damage as important as +.25 aps, or because a good enough dagger was overpriced or not available, but I don't think I'd call it a budget option unless you compare 60 million gold (what I paid at auction) with the cost of most of the rest of my gear (significantly more per piece).
  7. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    You have a lot of faith in your calculator. Link it and I'll vet it for you.
    First off, you're dropping 60mil gold on weapons, so if you don't have very high crit, you're doing it wrong. Always prioritize resource management first — monster health and damage are variables you can MP level your way out of, but Fury per second isn't. For Barbarians, Into the Fray is your primary generator, so crit chance first, everything else second. Maybe you should be dropping 60mil on a helmet or a ring or bracers or gloves.

    Second, what I meant was it should be a budget option. It isn't — it's heinously overpriced. Like an overvalued stock, my current advice is "do not purchase." If and when it actually becomes a budget option... well, by then you'll probably be in the good gear department and the point will be moot. If you currently have one... sell it while it's still worth something. It does do a fantastic job at stat-sheet illusion weaving, and even with me crying like Chicken Little it'll take months, or at least weeks, before the price drops significantly (other than general inflation). Unload now.
  8. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    http://www.d3rawr.com/d

    I don't know where you're getting that I don't have high crit chance. I do. Or rather, it is high enough to be functional and I've spread out to hunting other things, as crit chance is not the optimal way for me to increase my dps at the moment.

    Edit: perhaps I didn't state it very clearly. At 60 million gold, my EF is my third-cheapest piece of gear at the moment. Only my cold damage SoJ (30%, wizard skills) and my rare helm (str/socket/809 armor/60 all res/5% ctc/enough mf to put me at max with my templar and paragon) were cheaper, even counting 1d12hr purchases and auctions won while the servers were offline. It is a fairly 'budget' option compared to the rest of my gear, but I was unable to find anything that provided more applied dps in the calculator I used.
  9. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    If you tell it you have a 1.2aps, 1000dps weapon mainhand and a 1.5aps, 0dps weapon offhand, it tells you that your offhand Run Like the Wind ticks do zero damage. Therefore, it thinks that offhand DPS has something to do with RLtW damage (it doesn't). If it's that far off on RLtW, which is a majority of your real DPS, I'm sorry but it's crap.
  10. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    Here's the conundrum for your math: if offhand damage matters AT ALL, we should see some sort of spread between the weapons' killing times. You've got ~a 10% spread in the weapon dps but no spread in killing speed. I haven't bothered to crunch through all the number, but I'm not convinced that rltw explains away all the spread. The chance that the dps difference is exactly offset by the AS speed difference would be pretty coincidental. I think to know for certain we'd need to see a variety of dps weapons with the same attack speed. In fact, a good test would probably be a low dps mainhand with a variety of same speed dps offhands.
  11. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Good observation. It didn't fully satisfy me either; explaining how current math gets you 90% of the way there is great and all, but that last 10% is bothersome. I'm in the lab working on it.
  12. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Finding a bug in a piece of software still in development does not make it garbage. What weapon actually in the game has 0 dps? Also, if you'd troubled to really investigate, you'd have realized it assumes you don't have an offhand weapon equipped unless the offhand weapon has a damage stat. With a 1-1 damage, 1.5 aps weapon, it correctly calculates offhand tick speed and damage. I'm sorry but your opinion on the calculator is crap.
  13. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Was crap. Was.

    This might be a tad nitpicky, but I have spotted one error when it comes to handling RLtW tickrates — it pretty much assumes the effect is going continuously. For Whirlwind, this is correct (as long as you keep channeling); for Run Like the Wind, tornadoes are a little more incremental. For example, let's take a tornado with 8 frames per tick. The calculator has this as dealing 60/8=7.5 ticks per second and just moves on from there. However, what really happens is that the tornado spawns with the intent to live 180 frames (3 seconds). It dishes out a tick every 8 frames, until it's handed out either 22 or 23 ticks at the 176th or 177th frame (I'm trying to research whether it does damage at Frame #1 or waits until Frame #8 to start dealing damage; I'm thinking it's #8). It never makes it to 184, so the last few frames are wasted. 22 ticks over 3 seconds is 7.33 ticks/sec; 23 ticks is 7.67 ticks/sec. Either way, it's off by about 2.5% in its reporting of RLtW damage (which means overall DPS reporting is roughly 1.5% off).

    Of course, I don't have the answer to this yet either, and it does provide a good approximation (in this case, evenly split between the two possible answers).
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  14. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Yeah. D3 research being a work in progress, I don't expect much more than a good approximation from anything. The rest of the calculator is quite nice, too; importing bnet profiles, saving data, one calculator for all classes instead of several spreadsheets or whatever.
  15. sssdrawr

    sssdrawr IncGamers Member

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    I was recording a fight with 2.00 and 2.50 APS weapons. Based on your post the time between the attacks should alternate between 0.5 seconds and 0.4 seconds right ? But that wasn't the case. I never got 0.5 or 0.4 seconds. It was always between 0.417 and 0.467 and there was nothing like a short long short long rhythm.
    For me it looks like avg attack speed of both weapons and swinging 50% with MH / 50% with OH.
  16. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    The rate at which tornadoes are dropped has nothing to do with weapon swing timers, so you wouldn't necessarily expect the tornadoes to simply alternate fast slow fast slow. If you're constantly whirlwinding, the pattern is non-obvious, and almost certainly not simply alternating.

    Secondly, there isn't a one-to-one map from attack speed to tic rate. Instead, there are breakpoints.
  17. Crunchy II

    Crunchy II IncGamers Member

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    The +APS from the Echoing Fury is applied to the off-hand too. So that 1.43 EF effectively turns the 1.66 Dagger into a 1.89 Dagger! That surely makes an EF pretty godly?
  18. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    No, it isn't.
  19. Crunchy II

    Crunchy II IncGamers Member

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    The EF certainly affects the off-hand when looking at the APS on the paperdoll. Do you mean it is only applied for auto-attack but not tornadoes or Whirlwind?
  20. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    I knew about the breakpoints, but was simplifying it; the only thing that creates the breakpoints is rounding. However, non-alternation was a genuine mistake that I was aware of shortly after my "back to the lab" comment above.

    Here is a slightly more accurate Whirlybarb DPS calculator, getting the ticks exactly right on RLtW (I counted them, you actually get a bonus tick at frame 0) and includes DPS values for all four ways you can use WW+RLtW (MHMH, MHOH, OHMH, OHOH), making it more accurate than the other calculators.

    If you put in the off-hand axe and dagger that started this whole thread, guess what? 0.7% difference, in favor of the dagger. However, with the 4 ways to play WW+RLtW, there's chance for error there too.

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