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WW Barb using Bash (Punish)?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Sentarius, Aug 9, 2012. | Replies: 25 | Views: 7486

  1. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    Any thoughts on this? When I started WWing I used Bash (Instigation) to quickly get fury up and WWing under way.

    When I switched to DW, I used Frenzy, alternating between (Sidearm), which everyone says is best, and (Maniac), for a boost to WW damage. I like the style of (Maniac) but the timing is tricky.

    Then I noticed Bash (Punish), which I've never read anything about. (Maniac) provides a 20% boost to all DPS after 5 hits and lasts for around a second, but (Punish) gives a 18% boost to all DPS after just 3 hits, and the buff lasts for a full 5 seconds. In addition, Bash generates Fury twice as fast.

    So, assuming I see a pack, pop War Cry and then Battle Rage, and am left with 10 fury, needing 10 more for my first Sprint:

    Bash (Punish): Two hits to get fury for Sprint, including 12% buff, three hits for maximum 18% buff, buff lasts for 5 seconds of WW, max single target DPS of 177%.

    Frenzy (Maniac): Four hits to get fury for Sprint, including 16% buff, five hits for maximum 20% buff, buff lasts for 1 second, max single target DPS of 231%.

    Obviously there's also (Sidearm), which (I think?) has a slightly lower max DPS but doesn't have to ramp up the way (Maniac) does.

    The attack speed bonus of Frenzy, which matters for DPS and also for LoH when using it, doesn't really figure in here since it takes time for it to stack up. Bash (Punish) wouldn't be as good for chasing Goblins or whaling on bosses that are crammed into a corner and can't be WWed easily.

    Sorry for the plodding analysis. I guess the only thing to do is try playing with it. Anyone have any insights?
     
  2. VagrantKing

    VagrantKing IncGamers Member

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    Tbh I think both are quite viable and it comes down to your own preferences.

    When I first started the WW barb it was difficult to generate Fury so I did use Bash/Frenzy quite heavily. Now that I am better geared I find that I no longer rely on Bash/Frenzy as much.

    If your Fury generation is good enough, you can even replace Bash/Frenzy with another skill altogether like Overpower. Then again, it depends on your skill build.
     
  3. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    Man, working Overpower into a LoH WW build would be amazing. What do you do, just use the WW button to do normal attacks until you have enough fury? No more Goblin killing, but I imagine that only Arcane Sentries could kill me then.
     
  4. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    I use a mighty weapon. Normal attack with whirlwind sometime works but as soon as you have enough fury for one 'attack' with whirlwind (something like 6.x fury) you whirlwind instead of using normal attack and usually burn all your fury this way. With a mighty weapon I just use warcry, sprint around a couple mobs (or one big one) to let the tornados generate fury, then activate battle rage after I have enough. And... yeah, arcane sentries are the only thing that really hurt at that point. You can still kill TGs too but you have to be a bit careful about how you do it.


     
  5. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    Oh, yeah, good point about WWing. Whoops. Oh well.

    I use an axe for crit and a sword for LoH (self-found, woo!) so a mighty weapon isn't really an option, at least right now.
     
  6. Nostalgia

    Nostalgia IncGamers Member

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    I use instigation rune for my bash .I've tried what other people have done where they substitute bash with overpower which is great however its just not viable against goblins who wont sit in your tornadoes, and you eventully end up wasting time trying to gain fury to try and WW or sprint that the goblin gets away. Maybe if i had 100k dps I could make it viable but not with my 32k dps (running MF runs with 300 mf).
     
  7. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    If you use Into the Fray (and i'm assuming you do) then i'd use any of the Frenzy variants any day over Bash.
    -Smite when you want to pin down enemies so that they don't run away as much or do asmuch damage to you via normal attacks or special attacks (i see it as a passive offensive and defensive boost due to how many more effective hits you can get in and how many less hits you take, which is the reason why i prefer it)
    -Sidearm when you want pure extra damage, although i don't really see the point except versus goblins and endbosses, and you really shouldn't have any problem with goblins anyway due to how easy it is to catch up to them with Sprint, and endbosses are also best downed with pure Sprint.
    -Maniac when you want to increase damage mainly for WW/Sprint, although i doubt you get much of a real damage boost due to having to refresh it every 5 seconds when it's probably more effective to just keep on Whirling/Sprinting whenever you can.
     
  8. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    My understanding is that Maniac has to be refreshed much more often than every 5 seconds. Am I misunderstanding how it works? (This is sort of the point of this thread!)


     
  9. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    As far as i know you just need to keep Frenzy at max stack of 5 to benefit from the 20% increase in damage, and you need to attack once every 5 seconds to keep it at 5 stacks.
    Theoretically it sounds good, but practically i don't find it to be that useful. If i want to WW/Sprint, i rather WW/Sprint indefinately (fast attack speed, high crit rate) instead of stopping midway to attack a single enemy (which kills the momentum i feel).
     
  10. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    I just tested it. The Frenzy stacks last for 3 seconds.

    So if Bash buffs last for 5 seconds, is the extra 2 seconds worth the lower DPS?

    I think it might be, because 5 seconds is enough for an entire duration of Sprint, WWing as you go, and leaves you 1.5-2 seconds to land a hit with Bash.


     
  11. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    It does? Wow, i could've sworn it was 5 seconds, but i'm not doubting you, haven't been playing the game for awhile.
    I don't think it really changes much regarding Maniac though, but maybe comparing to Bash it does. Problem is still that i don't really see the dynamic of Bash, WW/Sprint for max 5 seconds, then Bash again to keep the damage buff up, really working out that well in practise. But maybe i'm wrong and with practise you could perfect that cycle, if you can then i'm guessing that yes, it is worth it to go with Punish instead of atleast Maniac.
     
  12. Coolhwip

    Coolhwip IncGamers Member

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    You do more dps by continually whirlwinding and spamming tornadoes. Stopping and trying to hit a single mob every 3-4 seconds will look pretty retarded and it would also mean death if you are playing WW properly which is kiting an entire level worth of mobs and elite packs into an area and kill them all together. At least that's how I've always done it.

    In pugs, I just use bash(instigation) once then sprint ahead of everyone and drag trash forward with me until I find a pack and wait for the rest of them to catch up. As a side effect doing this is a good way to get back at afking leechers hugging the stash hiding in town. They usually wait 'till the rest have cleared some trash to finally come down. The moment they click on my banner they are greeted by a wall of mobs + an elite pack or 2 and they end up having to walk the entire distance and by that time the pack is already dead and since they didnt get a chance to tag it more often than not they get no loot from it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  13. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Yeah that's what i argue to, it's difficult to put it into an equation though but it wouldn't surprise me if continuesly whirling/sprinting would outdamage even a 40% increase, just due to the dynamics of it all.
    Also, it was never asked but i'm pretty sure Hurricane with Tornadoes outdamages Volcanic Eruption or Dust Devils with Tornadoes and the more runspeed you have the better.
    edit: AND you get more LoH effectiveness out of it due to how much faster you spawn tornadoes, so that Bloodfunnel also becomes irrelevant.
     
  14. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    I tried it out a bit, and I am definitely enjoying it.

    First, I absolutely agree, when I am in WW it doesn't make sense to stop it.

    However, there are two great things about Bash. First, when a pack is down to one or two guys who run around and won't stand in tornadoes, yes I could just Frenzy them, but Bash makes it easier to build up buffs for a whirlwind if I want or to get ready for the next pack. Second, in a similar vein, while Frenzy and Bash both work on destructible objects, the fact that Bash requires fewer hits to generate the same fury and to stack up its (longer lasting) buff actually makes it worthwhile to hit an object here or there en route to a pack.

    Basically, I see the skill/rune as offering a little of everything, jack of all trades if you will:

    Better fury generation than Frenzy, not as good as Instigation.
    Inferior buff stack compared to Maniac, but faster to generate and longer lasting.
    And for those annoying guys who run away and just need a few hits, it has better initial DPS than Frenzy, although not better sustained DPS.

    I can see that Instigation is better if you only ever use your generator to start WW, and Frenzy is better if you plan to do serious single targeting, but Punish is definitely worth checking out.

    Next thing I need to do is test if it can kill Goblins in Act 3 w/out wasting WotB. (Frenzy can.)
     
  15. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    I really want to get crushing advance into my build, but every time I try it I end up fury starved because I periodically forget to cast battle rage and have no way to get it back up once it drops.


     
  16. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    It takes a while to train yourself to do that automatically. Just keep practicing!


     
  17. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    The other thing is when you're down to one target with a small hitbox, even with 51.5% crit, perma-whirl doesn't always work. You can run around them in circles if they're melee, but if they're ranged that doesn't really work very well either. Instigation works, and generates enough fury to keep thrive up too. Frenzy or even other bash runes can't keep thrive up.

    What do crushing advance barbs do against a single ranged enemy? Like say a fallen firemage rare who's minions have all died to your whirling? (or succubus, or blood clan spear thrower). Also what about shielding packs? It seems like it would be really easy to lose battle rage and not be able to get it back up.
     
  18. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    If you have stacked crit and are using (Into the Fray), any Bash, Cleave, or Frenzy Rune can keep up (Thrive on Chaos).

    On the subject of (Punish) I've decided to go back to Frenzy (Maniac). In Act III I'm definitely finding a lot of firemage and other ranged types that need to be chased down one by one. The reason I decided to go back to Frenzy is actually the attack speed. Higher attack speed = more life on hit. I do like (Punish) though and I might stick with it if I wasn't a life on hit Barb.


     
  19. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    That hasn't been my experience. I'll give it another go though, as trying to pick off running ranged with bash annoys me too.


     
  20. Sentarius

    Sentarius IncGamers Member

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    Obviously you have to be burning fury by slamming Sprint and Battle Rage as often as possible.

    And it also depends how much they run. You need them to hold still now and then so you can get solid hits in.


     

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