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Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by galzohar, Apr 22, 2012. | Replies: 101 | Views: 20417

  1. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    While before playing the beta I already thought there is basically little reason to use bash or frenzy, now I really don't see it...

    Even unruned, cleave deals 120% weapon damage. You need to cleave 4 times per hammer of the ancients use (neglecting small amounts of fury gained from cooldown-generators and damage taken) or 6 times per seismic slam. In practice, the result is that most of the damage you are dealing (again, based on beta experience plus some common sense) actually comes from your fury generator. With cleave generating not much less fury than bash/frenzy, I really don't see how losing the massive amounts of AOE damage it deals is worth having just a bit more fury for the spenders.

    Without AOE, there's really no way for bash/frenzy to compete with cleave on straight out damage, and with so much of your damage coming from cleave, you really won't be considering a bit more fury for a lot less damage from your fury generator.

    Sure, there are boss fights and the occasional single mob, but we all know those are the exceptions, not the norm, and Blizzard is not expecting us to have 2 fury generators anyway. I mean, the whole design of the game seems to be based around everything being AOE (which makes sense in some ways, but then why have such useless non-AOE abilities).

    I know this comes off a bit critical, and we don't know everything yet and such, but still - The single target skills just seem way too weak to be considered.
  2. Youngtimer

    Youngtimer IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    I am with you galzohar!

    Additionally the runes favor in the same way. Rupture (85% AOE wpn-dmg on kill) is extremely powerful and easily out shines other runes. (nerf incoming?) In a situation where you have at least two mobs, you hit both with 120%, one dies and the second (or third, forth...) suffers 225%. Also this mechanic includes chain reactions which can be observed in several skeleton events in the beta.

    Actually i cannot imagine a level or difficulty where i want to switch from cleave to bash/frenzy.

    Greetings from Germany,
    Youngtimer
  3. iESCAPISM

    iESCAPISM IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    It all boils down to: PvP.

    And possibly Flavour. Frenzy with Sidearm and Bash with whatever that narrow line shockwave rune both sound like a lot of fun. I do agree that Cleave, with Rapture in particular, sounds like the go-to pve skill though. I would have prefered if spenders werethe main AoE nukes.
  4. cozmiccc

    cozmiccc IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    bash with the first rune is very handy to stunlock monster... try it with the skeleton king. Frenzy is pretty good too with the high attack speed. Did you give them a fair go? Though I agree that in beta monster dies too easily anyway that you don't feel the lower damage cleave provides. It's possible on tougher monster you'll prefer higher single target damage and some CC in the form of stun.
  5. LucianDK

    LucianDK IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Early on Cleave is definitely outshining Bash in sheer performance thanks to the aoe component. Plus if you look at Reaping Swilng, Cleave exceeds the fury gain of Bash with instigation rune with 3+ foes hit. Should be quite an aoe fury engine - cleave/reaping swing, whirwind/wind shear, leap/call of arreat together with the weapon master passive and using mighty weapons.
  6. Volpula

    Volpula IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    It all depends on the particular build you'll use. I'm a big Cleave fan with a two handed weapon. But recently I used Frenzy with a twohanded and result was really good. I would porbably go for a single target generator and aoe spenders so I would prevent overkill.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  7. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    With the right build Frenzy is just a way to get a lot of fury fast.. Even in D2, when the regeneration rates of monsters become higher, it can be more sensible to kill one at a time. The stronger you are compared to the mobs, the more important AOE becomes for speed.

    That said, I expect Cleave to be nerfed.
  8. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Personally i'm a fan of frenzy right now. Frenzy builds up stacks much faster than i though and after you got 5 stack frenzy rolling there is no stopping you. Even without rune effects it is closer to 200% per cycle when you get the stacks up.

    I'm talking about relative damage. Frenzy ofc doesn't do 200% per cycle but in comparison it does when you apply the AS buff.
  9. Fuzzyboy

    Fuzzyboy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    It would seem logical that cleave at some point would be balanced so that it was more efficient than bash, when there are 3/4 mobs, and bash would be more efficient with less. Assuming skill-changes cancels out nephalem buff, and 90% of the time being spent with a lot of mobs around, I don't see bash as a viable alternative at least not at the moment.

    I'm guessing that very few boss fights will be tank and spank, so cleave might even be viable for bosses - I guess there's no telling until we know more. We might end up selecting skills based on the boss we plan to run, but for levelling, my bet is on cleave.
  10. WDfromBg

    WDfromBg IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Bash is usable vs bosses when you dont have enough fury! Frenzy, ofc.I will use it if I create a dual wielder!
  11. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Cleave needs a nerf pretty bad.
  12. Siege Valgore

    Siege Valgore IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    But, Cleave generates Fury not spends it? And it deals more Weapon Damage? Or do I have it backwards? I have actually only ever used Bash in Beta (Over two months now, always a Barb). Not sure why it only recently clicked for me that I might want to give Cleave a run. But I've always used Bash and I have never died, not once in beta.


  13. RazeBarb

    RazeBarb IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    I plan on starting a fight with that "rushing" skill with the rune that gives you additional Fury for each enemy you rush through, then I'll spam cleave with that explosion rune and from there I'll probably go with AOE skills.
  14. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Frenzy and bash might have a higher fury-generating potential, but it's not by much. You'll still be using them quite a lot more than you'll be using your spenders, as it seems, meaning their damage is still very important. And in damage, seems like nothing beats cleave in 98% of the cases, and even in single target situations, cleave isn't far behind.

    It's funny how people bring up bash/frenzy with their AOE runes to compensate. Just shows how powerful AOE (and cleave) really are.

    As for the explosion rune, it's only really powerful if monsters die fast, so in later levels that rune might not be as powerful as it is in the beta. But cleave has other very powerful runes too, so that doesn't really change the arguments in this thread anyway.
  15. Siege Valgore

    Siege Valgore IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    lol. Nice.


  16. Smash

    Smash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    I use both in beta:
    Cleave/Rupture for trash on RMB
    Bash/clobber for tough monsters on LMB

    My concerns are more about bash and frenzy.
  17. Paddywan

    Paddywan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    I think Bash / Frenzy will be relevant as you get access to different spenders / other skills. The barb really lacks a solid single target damage skill, I don't really rate Bash in that role but Frenzy is perfect for it. I was thinking the same after playing the beta that cleave is more appropriate but as soon as things start living more than 1 or 2 hits Frenzy and to a lesser extent bash come back into play. I think the biggest problem with cleave is the strength of the first rune, its one of the reasons I moved away from Frenzy in the first place but again it will weaken as mobs begin to live longer / are more balanced health vs damage than the beta.
  18. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    The only way I'll use single target skills is if mobs are so tough, that the only way to kill them would be to isolate them 1 by 1. But even that will most likely not be possible in most cases.

    As for spenders, we only really have 4 spam-able ones - Hammer, Rend, Seismic Slam and Whirlwind. All are some sort of AOE, and seems like all require quite a few "generator" attacks in order to be able to use them once, meaning your generator's damage will always be important, and having a non-AOE skill in a situation with multiple (non-separable) targets is simply not optimal in any way. I wouldn't be saying that if frenzy/bash gave a significant amount more fury or at least had some semi-viable AOE capability, but they just don't seem to provide enough of either to compensate for not having cleave.

    As for having 2 generators, I think the extra benefit of an extra support skill (which can help for both single target and AOE) will still be preferable to having slightly more single target damage.
  19. ADest

    ADest IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    I used Bash until Cleave unlocked, then I switched back to Bash when the clobber rune unlocked for Bash, but quickly switched back to Cleave for the AoE. Then, when Seismic Slam unlocked, I switched to BACK to Bash yet again, and wasn't dealing MASSIVE amounts of damage to everything in the beta. When you finally get Onslaught the damage from Bash is pretty insane. I was two 16.2 Mighty Sickles and Onslaught just slaughtered everything in my barbs path. Bash kept Fury up constantly, and whenever a crowd showed up (like those summoner skellies and their minnions, or the carrion bat packs) I'd just Seismic Slam them back to Hell.

    Bash does 150% weapon dmg, runed to Onslaught it adds 2 more hits at 20% each, so Onslaught is effectively 190% wpn damage. Seismic Slam is 155% weapon damage and has some knockback and is AoE. I had absoluteley no problems with my Barbarian using Bash, Seismic Slam, Ground Stomp, and Leap. With all my builds I have 1 skill for single targets, 1 skill for AoE, one skill for defense, one for movement (if available) and the rest are just whatever I feel best complements the other 4. I just absolutely loved my Barbian. Leaping into groups of Unburried, (there's a spot in Catherdral 4 where 3 always come down these steps) even the champion packs with that big golden one as their leader, ground stomping, and onslaughting/Seismic Slamming them all to pieces before they can recover from the stun was the higlight of the Open Beta for me. I didn't think I'd come to like the Barb more than my Wizard, and I still like the Wizard lots, but my Barb was very much stronger than my Wizard in dmg output, survivability, and movement. I got both of them to around 60 DPS, but when my Wizard hit 60 DPS she was always running out of Arcane Power extremely quickly.
  20. meangreen

    meangreen IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

    Frenzy will be sick in later game once you get Smite rune. Couple that with Wrath of Berserker Thrive on Chaos rune(or insanity rune), weapons master passive, a pair of mighty weapons(duel wield grants +15%AS and 3 fury per attack) and your looking at 215% attack speed with a 20% chance to stun. It will own bosses, theoretically of course.

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