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Will anyone be using a shield?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by lorieninfl, Jan 17, 2012. | Replies: 45 | Views: 7844

  1. lorieninfl

    lorieninfl IncGamers Member

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    Will anyone be using a shield?

    I'm curious if anyone is going to wander around with a shield? The DPS loss would be rather massive it seems and with no active/passive abilities to turn your shield into a weapon; they almost seem pointless unless you are going for a pure survivability build.
  2. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    It all depends on how they balance it in the end. With the currently available info I am not impressed with shields at all, however there is very little info and even that little info is subject to change. In the end I'm sure they want to make shields attractive and thus I will seriously consider them when the time comes. But yes, with current data they are not impressive at all.
  3. Bowzer

    Bowzer <a href="payments.php">IncGamers Site Pal</a><br>D

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    Something about Barbarians and shields just doesn't work for me. My philosophy for using a barb is going to be kill things fast so they don't kill me.
  4. shoko

    shoko IncGamers Member

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  5. Decimus

    Decimus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I understand that if one has no knowledge of how D3 melee works this is the assumption, however; let me enlighten you. You are likely to, as you level up first and foremost, be doing MORE damage if you drop your offhand and go without any offhand at all (or use a shield).

    This is because of how D3 treats mainhand and offhand swingtimers. In d3, mainhand and offhand does not hit independently, they queue eachother. What that means is that when dual-wielding you're not getting alot of extra hits, in fact if dual-wielding hadn't had a hidden 15% ias bonus the difference would have been in this no-stat scenario absolutely zero.


    So when is it going to be a damage loss to be dw-ing? It's when you find a good weapon upgrade, and only one of them. If the upgrade is big enough, it is a damage loss to have this awesome upgrade be queued behind a bad offhand, since dual-wielding essentially makes the swingtimer its own (swingtimer + the offhand one)*15% extra ias from dw bonus. And this is no theoretical scenario mind you, I have had this happen to me on several beta playthroughs.


    HOWEVER, why wouldn't we then all be using shields if dual-wielding is redundant? This is because in comparison to d2, shields offer way less protection. They now have a block amount rather than completely negating the damage, and it would appear it is harder to reach high numbers of %block. Basically it all comes down to style. Dual-wielding/2handing equals slightly more damage and slightly less defense when compared to shields. In the end you will be pulling respectable numbers whether you want to use a shield or not.


    It all comes down to the style you prefer.


    Oh, and if you don't understand what I mean by queueing eachother, find any Barbarian playthrough and you'll see how the Barb only swings with one weapon at a time (of course).


  6. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    If you don't have 2 good weapons for dual wield, you can always just find one 2-handed weapon. Unless they drop more rarely, they'll be just as easy to get as a single good 1-handed weapon.

    You also need to remember that finding a good shield will probably be almost as difficult as finding a good offhand (assuming drop rates are equal, otherwise this too can differ greatly of course).
  7. Scorch Hellfire

    Scorch Hellfire IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I could see a WD using a shield if they are using the closer ranged spells without dogs...
  8. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    Am I alone to find this whole lower-dps-than-not-while-dual-weilding silly? I assume that only your mainhand weapon's damage (and both weapon's stats of course) is being used when calculating skill damage? Does the (likely) increased speed of one handed weapons and the associated resource consumption make up for their lower damage?

    What I suppose I may agree with is how two-handed and one-handed damage is now much closer. But, I fear, dual-weilding may be almost worthless (who uses autoattacks?!) if shields have anywhere near their amount of statistics.
  9. StrikexForce

    StrikexForce IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I dont see the point of using a shield unless its Hardcore.
  10. Decimus

    Decimus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    What is so silly about it? Stats from the offhand is used in almost all cases (aside from the stats improving the offhand weapon such as elemental procs and %damage), but it doesn't matter in this case. Increases in min/max damage is extremely powerful. I don't know if you have played the beta, but items with min-max on them is by far the best way to increase your damage (at lower levels at least). The result of this becomes that whenever you find a weapon with a better damage range, you should simply just try to unequip your offhand and check your damage output.

    In this following scenario we'll be ignoring 15% dual wield ias. Let's say you have two weapons with 10 damage range and 2 seconds swing timer. The actual swingtimer for weapon 1 is 2 seconds (it's own) + the offhand (2 seconds), which means w1 has an actual 4 seconds swingtimer when dual-wielding. Same goes for weapon 2.

    Then you find an upgrade that has 20 damage and 2 seconds swingtimer. When you equip this weapon, the dps will increase, obviously. However, because in this case we're dual wielding, the actual swingtimer of this weapon becomes 4 seconds as well, since it has to queue behind the other weapon as well. As such, in this no stat, no dw ias scenario the increase only becomes 50 % (from 5 dps to 7,5 dps).

    Now, we unequip the offhand, and the mainhand is now decreased to a 2s swingtimer again. That means the dps becomes 10 dps instead of 7,5.

    The offhand does sometimes provide offensive stats, however I'm pretty sure shields can as well. The only real thing to keep in mind is the 15% ias. That's arguably the only thing that makes dual wield any better than 1x 1hander (whether you use a shield or not).



    Oh, and there are no auto-attacks in D3. Anything still unclear? I don't mind explaining this, because I'm 100% certain that the majority of Barbarian's leveling will miss this opportunity to increase their damage output, especially while leveling (where finding good upgrades is most common, naturally).






    The point is to maximize the damage output at all times. I can't say I care if that's one of your concerns or not, I'm just giving you a heads up that whenever (if you're using 1handers and dual wields) you get a weapon upgrade, you should try unequip your offhand.


  11. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    What is silly is the fact that weilding a second weapons can sometimes result in a dps decrease. You've demonstrated that it could. Weilding two weapons should always be an increase no matter what. I'm really not sure I like the shared swing timer.
  12. BRAINS

    BRAINS IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I would dual wield if I have two weapons with effects that I can't pass up such as massive life leach on one sword and a good cold effect on the other. I would dual wield so I can hit enemies with each of the sword making use of their effects. Like some else said there is a minor attack speed increase when you dual wield. I think I'll be trying out the shield because it will increase my armor greatly (shield have a lot of armor) and I can socket a shield. Socket the shield to increase your characters damage and you've made up for the loss is dps from not dual-wielding. In addition it looks like you will need massive amounts of armor to get a decent damage reduction.

    I'm a 1-Handed weapon and shield kind of guy, but I bet you could manage to make a strong build that wield all sorts of combinations of weapons. I think people are underestimating the viability of 2-H weapons in D3 as well. Especially for barbs you could wield powerful 2-H hammers or poleaxes and increase the attack speed so that you attack as fast as a sword or axe. The advantage here would be that in D3 the skills take their damage from attack damage. So I could barbs using bulky weapons if they are using a lot of damage outputting skills.
  13. Decimus

    Decimus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    Oh, yes that is a bit silly I suppose. Regardless, it is needed to ensure sword n' board doesn't fall way behind.


  14. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    They could work it so that dual-wield doesn't make you lose damage no matter what, but they'd have to go with some quite silly systems to get it done without totally killing sword+shield, so it's probably not going to happen.
  15. Kblavkalash

    Kblavkalash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I imagine it will be quite balanced in the end. What I mean is if you select dual-wield then you gonna need to invest more into defensive skills & passives, but when you select shield, you can go more into offensive skills.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
  16. Illmattic

    Illmattic IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I think this is exactly how its going to be. Wielding a shield will allow you to focus more of your DPS and not have to worry about def as much.



  17. KIIFive

    KIIFive IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I think the way dual wielding works is perfect.

    I mean in real life, to make an impactful swing using a weapon (baseball bat, knife etc), you really do have to put your whole body into it. You can't just stand still and have only your arm swing...that would be pitifully weak, and in terms of Diablo, would do F**k all damage.
    It definitely makes sense to have swing timers queuing off each other because of this. (Swinging two weapons simultaneously probably results in an overall weaker power output, even if you do land both hits. Stand up right now and try to punch as hard as you can, with both fists together...try not to fall over. Then try to do a step, single punch as hard as you can, it will be much more powerful....assuming you have some sense of coordination)

    The 15%ias also makes sense, because with just one weapon, you have to 'reset' it before you can swing again. AKA you swing, the weapon is now out in front of you, then you have to pull the weapon back to your side before you can swing again. But with two weapons going alternately, you can swing the second one before you totally finish resetting the first one. (try it, punch hard with your left, then hard again with your right as soon as you can. Notice your right starts before your left if ready to go again, the 15%ias is a good representation of this effect. You can also try hard punching with just one arm, it will still be fast, but not quite as fast as using both, remember to put in the same amount of effort for each trial).

    And finally the lower damage output when using a weak weapon along side a strong one, opposed to just a strong one, also make perfect sense. If you held a crowbar in your left hand, and a plastic spoon in the other and hit your friend with them, alternating like described above, for 5 seconds, he would be pretty hurt.
    However, if you dropped the plastic spoon, and only hit him with the crowbar still using only your left hand and hit him for 5 seconds. He would get really f*cked up.


    As for how this effects diablo. Two high-end one handers (think end game here, months after release), dual-wielded, is going to do more damage than the same weapon and a shield because of the 15%ias. ALSO, there is a block animation am I right? meaning that yes your survivability is higher, but due to missing the 15%ias as well as having to deal with block animations, your overall damage output will be noticeably lower.
  18. Decimus

    Decimus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I doubt that the block animations will lock you out of attacking. If anything, it's because you took alot of damage to incur a stunlock (which would happen without a shield anyway). Haven't tried it though!


  19. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    I can't remember exactly where or if at all, but I think Blizzard did say something about no blocking animation, at least not like it was in D2 where it interrupts and locks you in place. Then again, they also said the difference in survivability won't be nearly as big as it was in D2.
  20. Zokar

    Zokar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Will anyone be using a shield?

    My melee mage will probably use a shield :p


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