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Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Market & Economy Discussion Forum' started by Punkonjunk, Sep 17, 2013. | Replies: 62 | Views: 21511

  1. Punkonjunk

    Punkonjunk IncGamers Member

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    Now, brace yourself, as I'm sure this is going to be a huge wall.

    So. I played the **** out of D3. I logged some 600 hours or so gettin' everyone to 60, etc. Spent a lot of time on the auctionhouse, some flipping, lots of upgrades, and so on. I do, of course, recognize that the actionhouse allowed me rapid upgrading at a low price, but the cost of that was the loot in farming seemed like trash. all the time.

    This was disheartening. Constantly. But.... the AH, was at least helpful to get to end game.... there just wasn't anything to DO when I got there. Paragon is a joke, seriously a joke. Grinding is not fun, it's grinding. if it was fun, we would call it fun, and not grinding.
    You might grind a blade before you use it, but here, we have nothing to use the blade on, we get the best we can, and grind it to a husk.

    Too much metaphor.
    I stopped enjoying it as it felt pointless.

    Eventually, I found path of exile; an amazing game emulating the nostalgic fun I had in D2, but with a massive skill set that was quite simply insane. Just off the wall insane. You adjust, but it's still a beautiful thing to behold, to this day...

    However....

    Gear upgrades are a nightmare.

    These are the tools we use to scour the forums for upgrades:
    http://poe.xyz.is/

    Take a ****ing look at that. it's sort of like the autionhouse in D3. Except you have no idea if the item is sold or available, or if the guy is offline and will be for weeks, or if he wants 800% of what you currently have in currency.

    It's virtually impossible to find upgrades reasonably in PoE. The trade economy being what it is, value is generally extremely flexible, but very, very high cost regardless.
    There is also a trade chat channel. Where people link items. Repeatedly.
    I don't need to get that deep into it; it's completely and arbitrarily obnoxious, and creates artificial trade barriers that are simply infuriating for reaching end game in a game that has some semblance of one.

    Diablo 3's itemization might change in a big way, but at some point, there will be a wall.
    This wall would normally be meted out by the auctionhouse, so you know what you need, how much, etc.

    Now, that wall will be not only not knowing what you need, but not knowing who to buy it from, or how to get in touch with them, etc.

    No matter what is implemented in it's place, it will be much, much more difficult to use. Arbitrarily.

    I feel like the AH whiners were the vocal minority and this is a PR stunt to save face, because honestly people were and totally must still be using the AH to progress, and I don't see that as problematic, at it's core; while account bound gear is annoying it provided a step out, but loot 2.0 is ideally the right step, gear that matters dropping.

    but no matter how it's handled, it won't change the fact that we now suddenly have a new arbitrary difficulty implemented in finding what we want.


    And that is ****ing infuriating.

    If I didn't like the AH, I wouldn't use it.

    I don't understand why they wouldn't implement a non-AH league or playstyle.

    Because seriously, why are we taking it from everyone?

    Does everyone REALLY want the auctionhouse gone?

    I know I don't, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
  2. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Can't please everyone so they chose to please self-found. Because self-found players care about fun more than winning and games are supposed to be fun. Congrats to Blizz for choosing fun over power gaming.
  3. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Tell me if I'm wrong, but you look like someone who enjoys the item hunt as an endgame as well. In the current incarnation of D3 the AH short circuits this item hunt, so it's no surprise that you didn't find anything to do after relying on it for your upgrades. What's worse is that if you ignore the AH you're met with ridiculous drop chances fairly quickly, but of course you know this already.

    I don't know about you, but I think D2 did things really well in the endgame, which is the reason why so many people played it for a long time. You had drop chances that allowed you to reach the end of Hell in a reasonable amount of time, even without trading. There was no need for an AH, or really for any kind of trading at all. It was only there to help you fine-tune your character to the highest degree. I think a system like that is the way to go for a game where items are the goal for the majority of players. Based on your registration date I assume you're an old-school D2 player. How would you like a system similar to D2's? Would it still make you miss the AH?

    With the new, potentially build changing Legendaries i think the AH would hurt the game even more, because people could try out every combination of build and items really quickly (even if only with less than stellar Legendaries), so the endgame experimentation would be cut really short. I think with reasonable drop chances there's no need for the AH, but first we need to be able to reach 75-80% of our characters' potential by ourselves. Based on what we know so far D3 is definitely moving in this direction. Let's hope we'll learn more from BlizzCon.
  4. Punkonjunk

    Punkonjunk IncGamers Member

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    I traded here for D2, back in the day. It was very, very frustrating, but the market saturated quickly.

    I've never much liked forum based trading, and I think the auction house is an extremely natural evolution for a trading economy. I think the problems with D3 were lumped onto the auctionhouse as the lowest common denominator, but quite unfairly.... D3 has a lot of problems.

    Stretching out the value of build changing items by making them harder to find from other players isn't a fix. It's a wall. By the time I played D3, we already knew that enigma, shako etc was mandatory for many builds... but it didn't change the enjoyment.... because on the road to that build, we had a LOT of choices. a LOT of builds. I had 3 accounts filled with different things I'd done, from enchantress to FoHer, (named Hammer_PK, for trollin' pub duels)

    I'm not arguing against respec, either. One tiny facet of the problems here is that there are SO FEW effective builds. In D2, PVP was basically rock paper scissors with a lot of builds, and that's fine, it wasn't built for PVP. but you could bust through that whole game and have fun doing it with HUNDREDS of builds. Try explaining that to my D3 barb. Go on, try, I'll wait.

    Yeah, stupid tornadoes haven't stopped. And for sure it was a crazy fun build for a while, but..... there should be a lot of builds like that. Like, an insane amount.

    I spent hundreds of millions trying to make a viable melee wizard in D3, but no matter how hard you try spectral blades is gonna keep on sucking compared to your other options.

    And again, that's just scratching the surface.

    I feel like we're solving a huge problem with a wall. If I thought climbing walls was fun, I'd go join the army, or just climb walls.

    I like instant gratification, but that's not to say everything should be. The options should be so diverse that the instantaneous nature of the auctionhouse doesn't stop people from experimenting, but rather encourages it.

    Another neat point for path of exile? They roll out new uniques on a weekly basis, usually a couple at a time, generally at least 1 is designed by the playerbase. These often open up neat new build ideas, too. (and cost a buttload.... for a while, which of course, would be reduced if path of exile had an auctionhouse, introducing a reasonable economy on the barter system, which they won't now that blizzard has basically set the precedent for hating auction systems.)
  5. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    This is true, D2 had practically no bad skills. Oh wait....
  6. Punkonjunk

    Punkonjunk IncGamers Member

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    It had a lot of bad skills.

    That was over a decade ago, and many bad skills could still be built around and pushed into end game. (see superdave's valk thing)

    That was a big place skill levels and unique gear and runewords came into play. There was a HUGE base of diversity in equipable and item modification.

    Diablo 3 is missing a lot of these important factors, and I don't think fixing it mandates the removal of the auctionhouse.
  7. javazon

    javazon IncGamers Member

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    Hey Punko, you lazy sack of zebra poo. Come on IRC and say hi! Slacker!

    p.s I agree, killing ah/rmah is as stupid as allowing religion to have any control in your lives.
  8. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    The whole fantasy that you will find exactly what you are looking for and never want to trade is a farce. Now they are forcing us back to spam channels and third party sites. Tremendous progress. I guess we can chalk it up to Blizzard's new found religion--if the vocal whiners don't like it, take it away from everyone. AH? Leech? Barb Nerf? Archon Nerf? Check, check, check, and check.
  9. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Even when you can't find exactly what you're looking for, trading doesn't have to be so important as it is now. It certainly wasn't in D2. You could definitely gear up your character for Hell just by yourself in less than 100 hours and you would enjoy doing that, because good and interesting Uniques and Sets were constantly dropping for your characters. While in the same amount of time you could probably reach MP2-3 In D3 (I don't know, I never tried), you may not see any Legendaries at all during that time (this I do know from personal experience). That's the problem and the reason is the AH.

    Many people think that if the drop chances would be much higher than they are now people would stop using the AH so much, but that would only be true if the drops would be absolutely absurd. You're talking about guaranteed rewards with the AH versus chance based rewards with drops. People will always prefer the former (especially after they got used it), until the latter becomes almost a guaranteed way to always get what they want. This is made worse by the fact that people already accumulated a lot of gold, so if you would increase the drop chances players could buy stuff even more cheaply, because prices would plummet due to the increased supply.

    If trading is ever to be balanced against drops, then it needs to have some hindrances for players, just like drops have with their chances, hence the removal of AH and the return of bartering. In a game where items are the goal for the majority this is the only way to do things in my opinion. We simply need barriers on trading to keep items valuable in the long term, while still allowing them to have realistic drop chances.
  10. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    First, thanks for telling me how I'd like to play. This whole attitude that "if you only have to grind more for sub-optimal gear things would be wonderful" might be great for you, but I'm not interested in spending more time to have worse gear. Diablo is and has always been a trading game. You may not have used the d2 trading forums here, on bnet, and on other very popular 3rd party sites, but to pretend they weren't important in the game shows a serious misunderstanding of it. How in the world do you think people got runewords? Furthermore, I play primarily one class--barbarians. I've done this since d2. Maybe that's a stupid way to play, but I like it. When I find good stuff for the other classes, I want to trade it for good stuff I can use. Making that harder and calling it progress is just stupid.

    Oh--by the way--you actually "need" very few things in life. Pretty much you need to breathe, eat, drink, sleep, and evacuate waste. Everything else is optional. Those of you who keep screaming about what the game "needs" would do well to remember that.
  11. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    That kind of frustration was my reason for quitting after 200 hours and four L60ers (all but a witch doctor) in late 2012. I needed AH gear almost everywhere to survive inferno, perhaps with 5 self-found items, and I never found a single legendary item, just a plan for a Staff of herding. It seems my way of playing D3 provided entertainment for less time than it did for D2.

    If they remove the AH, the trading forums will be back to what they were in D2. I think their existence was one of my most important reasons for playing D2 for so long, despite the repetitive nature of what I did. I will probably give D3 another try after the AH has shut down and they have something like a ladder system.

    I'm also expecting more activity on the D3 trading forum which I happen to moderate :whistling:. More power for me again, mwahahaha!!
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  12. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    I apologize, that wasn't my intention at all.

    It's great that you enjoy trading and it's obviously much more important to you than to me, but you'll still be able to trade, even after the AH is closed. The problem with the AH is that in my opinion its ease of use will always push all players towards trading, even if they don't like it, because the alternative is playing hundreds of hours or just to get one or two upgrades. From what I've heard not many people find that fun or rewarding (meaning the long gaps between upgrades, not trading) in a game that's all about items in the end. Raising the drop chances would only give access to even more items at lower prices.

    When there are some barriers to trading I think it makes sense that it's more likely that only people who enjoy playing that way (like yourself) will do so, while the rest of us will enjoy finding our own loot, because the drop chances can be safely raised without the whole of the economy overflowing with the best items. The economy will still be affected of course, but much less so than with an AH, where I could share my loot with a few clicks.

    Closing the AH is progress in the sense, that now people who don't care about the economy will be much less affected by it. It does suck if you're a trader, I acknowledge that, but in my mind this is the lesser of two evils, because this way a whole aspect of the game won't be pushed on people who don't want to bother with it or by it.

    I hope that made some sense. I also hope that it's clear that I don't want this change just because of myself and that I wouldn't want to punish anyone. I do feel that this is a necessary change though and that the game will be better for it overall. I fully admit that fact that I'm not a trader may influence my view on this issue though.

    Disclaimer: The devs increasing the drop chances to allow even non-traders to find most of what they want is kind of an assumption on my part, but we do know they are making the loot more personalized (and making the personalized loot BoA or BoE) and that they are increasing the drop chances of Legendaries. Their goal seems clear to me. Whether they achieve it is the real question.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  13. JimOfTheJungle

    JimOfTheJungle IncGamers Member

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    The obvious solution was simply to keep the AH.

    But. Uber-nerf it.

    Implement a system where players only got to use it a few times per 0-60 run. And a few more times after.
    t
    You could either do this via hours of game played / experience earned / number of mobs killed.

    Or do it via in-game found items that were super rare. Scroll of sale. Scroll of purchase. Each valid for one AH use.

    Certainly not a shortcut to the self found items. But also a better alternative to trade channels and chat spam or 3rd party websites like d2.

    Whats wrong with that idea!?
  14. trocadero

    trocadero IncGamers Member

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    So it feels like they want to end all trading, both from an incentive point but also from a mechanical point. They probably are going to go full bore BoA or just disable all types of P2P trading. No more trade window! On Monday, I would've thought that was insane, today, it's seems logical and actually the right idea.

    But, as others have said, I don't really play all the classes, even though I got all of them; my Barb and Monk are what, PLevel 2? 3? Whatever it was where you group through MP0 Inferno to get the achievement. If I find a great Inna's something, I want to trade it in for better Zunni gear or maybe a Chantodo (sic). And the absolute best part of the AH; I could do this trading simultaneously w/ playing! You know, killing monsters! Like you're supposed to! WUG chat spam meant you weren't killing monsters, which is what they want us to do at all times.

    But, as I said earlier, I think they don't want you to trade w/ other people, at all. If they match the drops for this goal (like the console) then it'll be a short term success. But then you'll get everything you want in a month or two, and then what? You can't trade in the PC version, and PvP might actually be worse than D2, which I never thought possible. There's nothing to do w/ the gear you just found super quickly. So maybe the PC is dead and truly gone; buy the console version, b/c then you can trade it back in when you complete your Grail in 6 months.
  15. Cerberus

    Cerberus IncGamers Member

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    I just don't think the AH itself was the core of the issue with D3s "failure". I simply believe Blizzard went too far in trying to get in on the micro transaction goodness. The game is by no means too hard or impossible without the AH, but the game feels like it was built around players using it. In the question of why the initial loot design was so horrible I'm even partial to saying it was intentional considering Blizzards vast expertise on the area (WoW, D1, D2).

    I'm not stranger to the amount of trading that goes on in D2, but it never felt like you needed to do it. I've always lived off the land and I've been stuck grinding Meph in NM to get through Hell more hours than I care to count. You do catch a break every now and again however and it's no doubt what keeps you playing.

    I got to paragon 40 in D3 and just felt I was racking up screen upon screen of rare junk. I didn't feel the game was too hard by any stretch, but it did not feel rewarding. It's the lack of endgame goals like runewords and elite legendaries that put me off D3. Granted, D2 went a bit far here with the high rune droprates, but knowing it's there gives me a drive and motivation.

    Considering for instance the amount of duped runes in circulation (the mere fact that an Enigma is considered a required "standard item".. ), I don't think the idea of an ingame AH was bad at all. I see D3 at launch as a failed experiment. They failed to see what was so great about D2 and compromised the loot system either from greed or incompetence.

    edit: bottom line: I do hope they manage to fix this now, but I don't think closing the AH is a good idea.
  16. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    One other thing that I'd like to throw out there is that trading by chat spam is just an assumption at this point, they only confirmed that the actual trade would happen in-game, inside the trade window. They never said the mechanism for finding sellers or buyers would be chat spam once again as far as I know. Just something to think about. I will definitely do that, because right now I can't think of any alternatives.
  17. Speedster

    Speedster IncGamers Member

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    I think this sums it up. There's an idealistic fantasy that if the AH goes away everyone will stumble across godly gear over time and suddenly develop extreme patience.

    The reality is that the AH was just a more sophisticated trade forum than the third party sites in D2, and that the power players are always going to find the fastest way to acquire the best gear.

    I tend to agree with the original post'er that a vocal minority may have influenced things for the worse. But, if the AH goes away, they will either be proved right or wrong.
  18. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Let's not lump barbs & archon in with the auction house change.

    Blizzard has stated for months now that they were getting rid of perma archon / wotb. Fortunately cd reduction is making its way onto gear/gems/paragon2.0 so you'll be able to significantly reduce the cooldown. Also life leech was removed from all classes so obviously barbs weren't specifically targetted there. That said, barbs needed a nerf more than any class I have ever seen in any rpg so you can't say the other nerfs weren't justified.

    The auction house removal though is completely out of left field. Utterly ridiculous and a terrible decision for the game. They better freaking quadruple our stash size now because gold is done as a meaningful currency. Its gonna be all about the gear. Perhaps one of the gems will take over as the defacto currency, but I doubt it. If someone has a godly item you want, you better pray to your gods that you have a godly item they do.
  19. TheDestructor

    TheDestructor IncGamers Member

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    With the AH the path of least resistance will always be buying your items, now without it, the best way to get items is by playing the game (because trading is a PITA for better or worse). I think this is a better alternative to our current situation. I think both options have their merits, but for the long run of the game, going without the AH is a better choice as it allows them to tweak drops to be more forgiving without the AH cutting the legs out from under the rewarding monster killing experience.
  20. Speedster

    Speedster IncGamers Member

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    Yes, good point. There was a definite need to balance the OP builds and skills, and the fun factor of the game should get a nice boost.

    Also agree on the pending uselessness of gold being a BIG problem, one that the AH had solved. There's a reason economies moved away from barter around the world. In D2, gold was useless so high runes became the de facto currency. Maybe gems will replace gold and we'll all have to learn that one manticore with certain stats = some number of radiant emeralds ... sounds, uh... fun.

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