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Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD de

Discussion in 'Witch Doctor' started by EismitSahne, Apr 23, 2012. | Replies: 25 | Views: 2413

  1. EismitSahne

    EismitSahne IncGamers Member

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    Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Hey,

    Personally i really like the WD and after playing him i feel even more confident about making him my main character.
    However i have one big problem with him/her.

    For most of us d3 will be mostly about farming gear quick and efficient.
    At some point once your gear is good enough, being able to move as fast as possible will be quiet important (finding champions or simply traveling to bosses etc.)
    So, as things look right now the witchdoctor will be the only character without the ability to travel in a "tele" style. All classes got some kind of leap, teleport, extra movement speed etc. So in the end the WD will be the slowest character to cover distance and thus less efficient in farming.

    Am i missing something?
    Who else is considering to not make the WD his main character because of that reason?
  2. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    You are missing something. Several somethings, actually.

    1) Spirit Walk: The tooltip does not state it, but Spirit Walk gives the player a substantial movement speed boost.

    This is one of the least resource-intensive movement skills of all the classes, however, it is restricted by cooldown. Finding ways to reduce the cooldown on Spirit Walk is certainly one way to improve mobility.

    Combining Spirit Walk with Spirit Vessel and Grave Injustice, as well as +Spirit Walk gear will enable a Witch Doctor to use Spirit Walk often.

    2) Stalker: This Horrify rune allows the WD to move more quickly for a few seconds.

    3) Big Bad Voodoo: This gives a movement speed increase, but is restricted by radius, so it will not help that much.

    4) Equipment: Boots often contain movement speed increases, but other equipment slots should offer it as well.

    Also, the basis for your argument is flawed. Not completely flawed, mind you, but still flawed. Efficiency does not imply that you need movement speed. If you are farming Elites, kill speed is as important as kill count. Kill speed is not determined by movement speed, but kill count is because the player has to look for the next group of elites.

    If you are looking to avoid battles with non-elite monsters, you don't always have to outrun them. You can always use crowd control such as Barricade or Mass Hallucination or Grasp to shut them down while you keep moving at the same pace.

    EDIT:

    Example Scenario

    Here are some notes I took really quick...

    Stalker
    20 sec cooldown
    4 sec duration
    20% increased movement

    Jaunt
    15 second cooldown
    3 sec duration
    Approx 20% increased movement (maybe more)

    Spirit Vessel
    17 sec cooldown Stalker
    13 sec cooldown Jaunt

    Grave Injustice
    kill 17 enemies within effect radius so that GI procs = cooldowns refreshed!

    Cast Jaunt and Stalker at the same time. You will be invincible and have 40% increased movement speed for 3 seconds, plus one additional second of 20% increased movement.

    Add some movement gear and you are now faster than most classes as long as you kill a few enemies along the way. Congratulations.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
  3. Jaago

    Jaago IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Stalker and BBV can't really be used for quickly traveling between mobs, and for Spirit Walk, it is a suboptimal use. In a sense, I agree with the OP, but really, it remains to be seen. I think only Barb (Sprint) and DH (Vault + Tactical Advantage) have potentially imbalanced movement abilities, and I do hope that they will be nerfed if they prove too strong.

    Maybe Inferno mobs will actually be hard and dense enough for movement speed to not matter much, but I think that would be a tad optimistic.
  4. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    I think that in higher difficulties, monster aggressiveness and power will be such that NO class can simply run past an elite mob, unless there is really absolutely nothing in a large area around it.
  5. EismitSahne

    EismitSahne IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Jaago i agree BBV and Stalker just seem quiet inferior to Teleport or Vault etc., and it's true that it remains to be seen.
    I was always under the impression that blizzard tried to not introduce a skill like the D2 teleport again, wich was a must for most pve builds.
    It's more of a concern i have then a true game changer and probably some nostalgia for D2.

    Hey pcguy thanks for the info on spirit walk, if it's like that the skill looks far more interesting to me. Especially since i have a caster like build wit Grave Injustice in mind. It is not on par with teleport etc. but still...

    Of course killing speed does matter in a farming scenario i actually thought about mentioning it in the first place.
    I'm talking about a scenario where i am only looking for blue packs, yellows and bosses and i don't care for anything else.
    My point is that the overall kill count per time of these mobs seems to increase (just like in d2) with a valid possibility to travel fast without sacrificing to much of your "killing speed".
    Most of the options you stated are an perfect example for this since you will have to sacrifice a lot more then other classes to get some comparable movement/mobility.
  6. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    In later difficulties, you aren't going to be using Vault to travel around, anyway :p. You'll NEED the Discipline to survive. If you waste it on travelling faster, then when you encounter a monster pack, you're just gonna need to sit there and wait for your Discipline to regenerate, which is pretty slow.

    Also, Leap and Teleport both have cooldowns, so that makes them very different from the D2 teleport :p.
  7. emiliorf

    emiliorf IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Also, on a note, I was playing the fastest of all classes with witch doctor due to the summons/DoTs. And we don't even have Locust Swarm yet.

    Point being that, I indeed had to walk normal speed, but I was dotting everything along the way and keep running. Dogs were finishing things as needed. Of course this implies in me killing mobs instead of bypassing them, but I found the dots a quick way to keep moving while still cleaning the way. And for DoTs I believe nobody surpasses the WD.
  8. FizzyBubbly

    FizzyBubbly IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Here is something very simple to try out.

    Whatever class you are not liking make a hardcore character in beta then proceed to run the beta naked with only the default main hand weapon. The game takes on a completely different feel and classes that you thought were boring or didn't do anything actually begin to surprise you. The pace becomes more methodical and calculated. You will need to use all the spells at your disposal to survive. Playing like this gives a great visceral response and feels like it would be a small glimpse into what hell/inferno could be like.
  9. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Regardless of that, if you enjoy the WD the most, why would you go for efficiency over enjoyment? :loving:
  10. EismitSahne

    EismitSahne IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Your right Kitteh, and i think i will still stick with the WD he is just to much fun.
    It's just something that bothers me but i guess i will trade teleport etc. for the WD madness any day.

    zOOt all skills do look like you won't be able to spamm them due to CD or "Energy" usage however you will be still a bit faster.
  11. weedjj

    weedjj IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Ya, there is no way that you will be able use teleport, vault, etc as a method to travel around in Hell and Inferno. You will die. They will be used for escaping bad situations just like spirit walk. I can't wait to LoL at every wizard who gets teleport and rune it to bypass the cd and get themselves killed. This game just isnt going to play fast at higher difficulties
  12. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Weedjj,

    If you have good gear and you move down one difficulty, movement will have a more noticeable effect because kill speed will be higher and survivability will be increased due to the decreased difficulty. Well-geared characters will be able to be more discriminating in where they go, what they kill, and how they kill it.

    Bashiok has said that Hell difficulty will have items which will be valuable even to characters in Inferno difficulty, so the scenario of a well geared character farming within Hell instead of Inferno is believable.

    Movement Speed will play a large part in how quickly a well-geared character can clear a lower difficulty area. This is important to note, because I can see one of those teleporting wizards you mention hanging out in the earlier acts of Hell and just flying around, AoE'ing enemies into oblivion, indiscriminately trying to gets as many drops in as little time as possible.
  13. weedjj

    weedjj IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Perhaps, but the drop rate on those items is going to be incredibly low. I can't see a realistic scenario where people would have good gear but spent the majority of their time a level below where their gear lvl is. To get that gear, they either spent A LOT of time in Hell to get there, or they spent time in Inferno and in that case, whats the point of dropping back to Hell?

    When you hear stories of test groups wiping 5 times just trying to get into Tristram in NM, I just keep holding out hope that the game is going to be as hard as they have said. In this case, 1. even Hell wouldn't be a cakewalk to just tele/vault or run through and 2. The amount of time to gear up to the point where it is relatively easy without going into Inferno would be a really long time with the lower drop rates in hell.

    I just don't see it as being that much of an issue. There may be a few rare scenarios that those skills help out, but overall, I dont think its going to be a big deal. Teleport was one of the worst things to happen in D2 as it led to Sorcs being the only viable MF'rs and force them to bring in high lvl runewords like enigma which forces everybody to have that. Not good design by anybodies point of view.

    It does all depend on the game being as hard as advertised tho. If it is, it will all work out.
  14. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    I agree. Though, I have to add that the point of dropping back to Hell (and lower difficulties) is mainly going to be used for two reasons.

    1) Rushing other characters:

    If you played the Beta, rushing was most easily accomplished by the Demon Hunter, who had the best movement skills. Moving through areas quickly is the best way to skip through enemies and get your friends and party members through the story mode as quickly as possible.

    2) Feeling less challenged:

    Consider the following logical statement (please keep in mind it is overly simplified):
    If Inferno is twice as difficult as Hell...
    Every hour spent in Inferno should be the equivalent of spending two hours in Hell.
    Every valuable item in Inferno should have the equivalent worth of two valuable items in Hell.

    Let's say you like Inferno, but it's getting a bit too stressful for you and you want to go back to Hell and just blast stuff. The area clears which occur after this decision should take less skill, be accomplished more quickly, more easily, and with less effort. They should be equivalently less rewarding.

    There will be instances where the drops kept are not for character, but for other characters or for crafting materials. If you farm the drops in the easier areas of Hell, you will be able to trade up to some better gear, or farm enough materials to craft some nice Inferno-viable gear.
    - Additionally, you can use some of that gear to outfit your lower-level characters or help out your friends.

    Now, back to our point and the point of the thread:
    Movement helps powerful characters move through areas more quickly. The usefulness and purpose of Movement is determined by the difficulty of the content. The difficulty of the content determines the drops. High-quality drops can be found in both Inferno and Hell. They are easier to find in Inferno. They are more difficult to find in Hell. Inferno is more difficult, will take longer to clear. Hell is less difficult, will take less time to clear. The scenarios are balanced.

    SUMMARY (TL;DR)
    A character outfitted for fast clears will get more loot than a character outfitted for lucrative clears, who will be getting better loot. If through methods such as trading and crafting, quantity=quality, this amounts simply to a play-style difference.


    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  15. WD pimpin summons

    WD pimpin summons IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    We don't even know how long killing monsters takes in Inferno.

    If every battle takes a few minutes to complete, then fast movement between mobs will be the least of your concerns.
  16. tvndental

    tvndental IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    This is the main reason I am not making a WD first. I am probably going to go wizard or demon hunter as my first character because of their mobility.

    You guys forget that Demon Hunter has two sets of resources and Wizard still has signature skills.

    So the demon hunter can waste all their discipline to vault and still be able to defend themselves fine with hatred skills. Demon hunter also has the skill preparation where you can get back all your discipline instantly if you need it.

    For wizard you still have signature skills to use even if you are out of arcane. Wizards also will likely have prism and an armor skill up to keep them safe while they teleport.

    Don't forget that you can have a Merc when you play solo too.
  17. Soval

    Soval IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Movement skills in D3 were never intended to be used as a way of getting to places faster -- they are supposed to aid you in killing monsters or to help stop monsters from killing you. You won't get around faster with one class or another unless you can kill things faster with it.
  18. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    Followers and player pets aren't really reliable damage shields. Enemies ignore them more often than not. Basically as soon as you deal damage to a target it will forget that your follower even exists. It may not be just damage that causes this, distance from the player or other factors may also play a role.

    Almost all movement skills have runes that favor builds where you use them for getting to places faster and not necessarily for escaping damage. How safely we'll be able to do this in Inferno? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to see players eventually ignoring most monster packs when they get to a certain gear level.

    Actually, I already have a theoretical Wizard build planned that's almost completely impervious to damage with highly specialized gear and can somewhat reliably reset the cooldown on Teleport.


    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  19. weedjj

    weedjj IncGamers Member

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    To be perfectly honest, if Inferno ends up not being insanely hard even with great gear and tele'n around skipping packs becomes viable, I hope Blizz buffs inferno or at least nerfs the tele rune. If 1 class is that much faster than all the others like in D2, I will probably just quit. I assume they have learned from what happened in D2 and this wont be a problem.
  20. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Who else considers another class due to the "slow" WD

    I don't understand why people rush through the game, I never understood it in D2. Play the damned game.

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