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Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's? der=0

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Andy2702, Apr 27, 2012. | Replies: 67 | Views: 4618

  1. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I'm curious as to who likes what kind of level system. Comparisons and opinions should be made purely on the leveling mechanics, and nothing else. I'll put these in numbered points so it's easier to understand what I mean by the difference.

    D2's:

    1. Level progression scaled astronomically. It almost felt like there was no level cap because level 99 was insanely hard/repetitive to reach. A varied number of different level players running around.
    2. A level 70 and level 85+, despite being in the same area of Hell Act 5, had extremely different items and even ability (due to skill/stat points) that was easy to recognize (level 85+ is OBVIOUSLY stronger than the level 70, but a level 85 and another 85 were pretty balanced more or less).
    3. The game really felt like it started at level 1, even when rushing made levels 1-60 negligible. Balanced amount of content throughout. I realize you guys might debate this with the fact that rushing made the game technically "start" at level 60+ (Hell Act 5), but think about it - a minimal of content was truly RESTRICTED at low levels.
    4. Leveling is boring in the sense that rushes ruined actual leveling.
    5. Character naturally becomes stronger because of skill points and stat points awarded for leveling, as well as scaling items.


    D3's (WoW as well):

    1. Level progression is scaled exponentially, but NOT astronomically :jig:. There is a hard level cap, meaning max level is more widely obtainable. Lots of max levels running around as a result.
    2. A level 60 in Diablo 3 (level 85 in WoW) would also have extremely different items, but almost identical skills. It is hard to recognize between a godlike level 60 and a noob level 60 (same with WoW). Being at a max level is nothing to be proud of, as level is not reflection of time played or personal skills.
    3. The game "starts" at max level, where access to a lot of the game's content (and being able to thoroughly enjoy them without dying over and over) opens up from that point on.
    4. Leveling is boring in that it requires grinding and tedious work (at least for WoW, can't say anything about D3. I'm actually looking forward to leveling A LOT, but maybe not the 10th time around).
    5. Character naturally becomes stronger not because of skills, but only because of items scaling (and therefore stats).



    Personally, I like the D2 mechanics better simply because it provides more variability AND consistency at the same time throughout the game. Your thoughts?
  2. unmoses

    unmoses IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I'm not sure how you came up with the analysis for certain points

    example: 1.) scaled exponentially? What is scaled exponentially?
    3.) I don't see how the games start any differently? Going through hell diablo 2 is harder than nightmare which is harder than normal.. Ssame for D3 (with inferno obviously)
    4.) I would think they would be the same for both
    5.) If by stronger you mean more healthy, than sure. Otherwise the answer has been items are handling stat points now for d3. They have answered why they did this
  3. Srikandi

    Srikandi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I don't think WoW's leveling system is the same as D3's, at all :O D3 has freespecs, and WoW doesn't... D3 had a limited number of skill slots, and WoW doesn't... WoW has separate systems for skills and talents, and D3 doesn't... WoW has trees (dependencies) in the talent system, and D3 doesn't... D3 has runes, and WoW doesn't... and so on. Why would you lump these two together?

    And I think there are also plenty of other games with interesting and different systems. Why not throw Skyrim, PoE, SWTOR, and Kingdom of Amalur in there, just to name a few, if we're comparing current games from related but assorted genres :)

    As for a preference, it all depends on the implementation. I've enjoyed a lot of games with very different leveling systems, and I've also played games with leveling systems that look great on paper but get boring quickly for one or another reason when you actually play them. All the theorycrafting notwithstanding, I am not going to know how D3 stacks up against other games until I have played a couple of characters past 60. (If I stop playing before that, I know it's failed ;) )
  4. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Unmoses -
    1. Oh, I meant that it gets harder to level each time you level up, which is basic to any RPG, but D2 had an insane curve to the system.
    3. "Start", meaning full, unrestricted access to all content must start at level 60 for D3, but not necessarily for D2 (such a in the case of rushes). For example, there's no way I'm going to Inferno difficulty EVEN as a level 59 (which is only one level away from max), because level 59 and level 60 are completely different things. Levels 1-59 would be leveling focused, while level 60 is content focused (which is similar to WoW with the raids and what not).
    4. Ehh... yeah.
    5. Yeah, that's why there's less variability without the skills.

    Srikandi -
    Strictly speaking from a leveling mechanics point of view, they have the same foundation and same style. I only wanted to compare Blizzard games because it's more relevant :). Skyrim follows D2 model more than the D3 model in terms of leveling. Never played the other games so I'm not too sure :p.
  5. Srikandi

    Srikandi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    See, I totally disagree with this. I think the differences between WoW and D3 that I mentioned are very significant in terms of the leveling experience. (Not to mention the lil fact that WoW is, yknow... an MMO ;) ) And I don't think the differences between D2 and D3 are as significant as you think they are.

    Particularly with respect to your Point 3... my response is "huh"? What is all this content restricted to level 60+ that you are talking about? A couple minor things, yes, but the current version of D2 has that as well.

    Edit: Rereading your post, I guess what you are focusing on is the level cap. OK, in D3 as in WoW, most players are expected to actually reach the level cap and keep playing once their level has been capped, whereas that was not true in D2. *shrug* We know why they did it: you can't keep the endgame challenging if the players keep getting stronger in skills as well as gear while they're in it. Is that going to work? Dunno, have to play it first ;)

    WoW's endgame was... "interesting" because suddenly you need a raid guild and you are spending your playtime playing guild politics instead of playing the game. There is essentially no more questing (no I don't count dailies :p) and no more solo play (despite Blizz's best efforts to fake something up for "casuals"); you are in a completely different game. But that does not apply to D3, so again, I don't think they're comparable.


    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  6. Autti

    Autti IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Pretty sure you have that one backwards. Why would D3 characters have the same skills when all skills are viable, as opposed to D2 where everyone had the same skills as ~13 skills were viable for endgame.

    Some interesting points, but likely to offer to much flamebait and trolls.


  7. Raesene

    Raesene IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Ugh. There is so much truth to this. I like raiding (sometimes), but I would have loved to have something at the same level of WoW raiding that could be done solo, or with a small group of friends. I hated definition of "soloable" as "stupid easy".

    It's one of the reasons I'm looking so forward to Diablo. Large-scale raiding is not even on the table, so the solo/small-group game gets a lot more love.


  8. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Right, that was because D2 skills were not balanced as well as it could have been, which led to cookie-cutter builds and thus very few viable endgame skills. However, had the skills been balanced, the level mechanics of the game would potentially allow for all skills to be viable, which could have greatly increased build variation.

    For D3, however, everyone of the same class has access to identical skills and runes at level 60, because they're fed to you on a plate as you progress through the game and everyone ends up having essentially the same character at level 60. It's just a matter of what skills you choose to use that allows for variation, because they're so balanced. If I had a level 60 wizard and you had a level 60 wizard, regardless of our play styles, if we swapped characters, we can each still change the character to be the exact same as before the swap (minus items and gender and name). Because you and I pretty much have the same character base without items at max level, I believe the game "starts" from that point on in which we each strive to obtain different items and customize it differently and venture down our own separate paths, while still both being level 60 - hence the difference in skill (player ability) between two max level players in the D3 system I mentioned. How powerful the character is is no longer dependent on his level, but only on items (and that is why I keep drawing parallels to WoW). That's the loss of "variation" and uniqueness due to the leveling system I meant in the original post.

    Basically like Srikandi said, I'm focusing on the level cap and the differing gameplay as a result of it, which he answered nicely.


    Who knows, I'm probably nitpicking as the long wait is making me itch for everything Diablo (including posting here)

    And yeah, I created this thread knowing I'd probably generate a lot of unwarranted heat towards myself. I'm not arguing for or against either game, I'm just stating that I prefer one more than the other, and that overall I'm fine either way.



    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  9. Autti

    Autti IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    but D2 has that now with respecs, so isn't your point kinda of moot?

    In fact D3 freespecs means that you can play the game MORE at lower levels because you dont need to save skill points and can make different builds for each level. By that fact i see that you are playing the game MORE up until the level cap than D2 where you just wait to dump your skill points into your build at like level 70, not to mention make a perfect build which means waiting to equip all your items with minimal strength which means waiting to 80.

    I just dont see it your way.

    I think the better argument is that we loose character identity because we can chop and change, but i think we can now "play the game" more.
  10. Zorrah

    Zorrah IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    i don't like the idea of the game starting at the level cap, BUT that is more of an overall game design as opposed to a leveling system design and is caused more by the community at large still. Still Diablo 2 really felt like it began at level 24~30, especially since it would be either level 24 or level 30 where you very often got your primary class skill for your build, especially if you are playing by the save all your points until you get YOUR build skill system.

    I've always been critical of games that begin at endgame instead of at "game". In WoW, it really helped that I love 5 man content more than raid content. In Diablo II, it helps immensely that they added the respec system. I really like burning my normal mode respec on wasted leveling points, so a new character doesn't feel like banging my head against the wall.

    I think Diablo III will be the best still, because it seems like the designer designed the game from the standpoint of "some players will finish in normal, some in inferno, and some in places in between". Designing the game with this in mind will make them more mindful of making all levels of play fun, as fewer players will hit a boring hump that makes them want to quit, and those that do quit, can leave without having a bad taste in their mouth. Also, as someone who plans on playing the game a long time, It would be nice to not have a long boring segment of gameplay.

    WoW started out like that, until the community said, "no, game begins at cap". With Cataclysm, it seem Blizzard tried to fix it by making the game more interesting in the early game, did a great job with the story in that regard, but made that early game so mind numbingly easy that it failed on all other levels.
  11. Urzuxo

    Urzuxo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    You really can't just compare the two without involving the skill and stat distribution system as well. That said, I think it's quite obvious which system I prefer *cough D3 cough*.
  12. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    The one thing I love about d3 is I will have a complete build by the time I start inferno. That entire play through will be for items only as all my skills will be unlocked. I hated in d2 that you gain skills til level 99. You never had a complete build in that game and by the time you got it there was nothing to do. well I personally never reached 99, my highest was 91 and I hated getting it to that point. So ya I vote D3 system over D2 system, its not even close to me
  13. Buu

    Buu IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Honestly, I forgot about levels after ~85. They just seemed to pop up randomly to give me a modest boost to a skill i hadn't maxed yet, and more Vit. Rather forgettable.

    A higher leveled character is stronger and generally has access to better items. Check.

    When I first played the game, yes it started at level 1. But when I had a few characters and wanted to try new builds, the 'game' didn't start for me until ~70. It was only then that I could start seeing the worth of my build I had designed. Yes, a minimal amount of content was restricted from the lower levels (really just items with level reqs). Players could conceivably be level 20 in act 5 hell.
    That or it felt like a chore if all you wanted to do is try a new build. If you wanted to go through the early game content, it may not be boring.

    I would argue that the stat points didn't do anything since stats weren't chosen based on damage.
    Str for armors
    Dex for 75% block
    Vit rest of points
    (Save for 1-2 builds that put points in the energy)
    That leaves just skill points and items. Comparing to D3, the only thing D2 has are skill points.
    This better allows for balance endgame content. In D2, once you hit 86, you out-leveled all of the available content. With a hard level cap, it is impossible to do so in D3.

    Access to skills is not the same as using the same skills.
    And a godlike 60 will out play, and have better items, than a noob 60.
    Your level is a reflection of time played.
    Your level is not (as you say) a reflection of personal skills. (Though I'm not sure of what games your level is tied to your skill).
    Debatable.
    In D2, the game started at 1 when you first started playing. Then, for those only interested in trying new builds, the game started ~lvl 60
    In D3, it starts (again) at level 1. You are learning how to play, and how each of your skills. Then the true 'item hunt' begins at 60 and in inferno. If a player isn't interested in the item hunt, both games (D2 and D3) start at level 1. There is no change in story.
    So why include this if it's not about D3?
    Through to level 60, you are gaining something each level, be it a new skill or skill runes. There is no 'grind' to level (or at least not a big grind) since (according to Blue posts) you should be around level 60 by the time you finish Hell. (grinding for Inferno worthy items might be a different story, but that's not including in the level systems.)
    Skill runes obtained through level changes how each skill can be used. Some make the skills stronger, some make them more efficient, some changes how they function. So it's not just 'character gets stronger through levels', but 'character has more options available through levels'.
    Stat points can be changed through gear (+ vit, + str etc). I would say the D3 stat point system (how each one functions and not how they're implemented) is superior to the D2 system.
    But due to the similarities of the D2 system, lets drop stats for comparision.
    D2 has skill points.
    D3 has skill runes.
    I prefer the skill runes to the skill points.



    I would disagree with the more variability (D3 has so many more options), but agree that using the same 2-3 skills for the whole game does make it consistant.


  14. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Time will tell. D2 leveling system had it's perks, but it also had it's flaws. I have had multiple lvl 90+ characters in D2, but never a 99 one. In D2 there always kinda was something to do since leveling had such a absurd scaling, but i'm kinda min maxer so i always designed the builds around max level. I can be quite the grinder when i'm in the mood, but imo D2 did take it too far. I don't know anybody who would have had lvl 99 without botting.
  15. FireIceTalon

    FireIceTalon IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    What was the half way to 99 on D2? Been so long since I played it I forget.

    On D1, level 46 was halfway to max level (50)! And going from 49-50 was about the same as 1-42....pretty sick.
  16. buddah

    buddah IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I like D2 system better, which pains me because I was waiting for something better in D3. But "automatic" leveling is not my idea of fun. Also I simply like the idea of developing your character to a certain direction, and having some limitations and compromises in the process. In D3 there is hardly any feeling of developing and refining the direction you have chosen when leveling. It's about changing you character if you wish or sticking to what you have and doing absolutely nothing when leveling up. There are options, but they feel meaningless.
  17. capnlarge

    capnlarge IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Can't really say too much about D3's system until I have levelled a character to 60.

    I did enjoy D2's levelling system a lot. But I'm glad that D3 has a completely different one. Just like I hope D4's is completely different than D3's.

    One thing I will say is I do like the lower level cap. Grinding out those levels with endless Baal Runs in D2 was boring as ****.
  18. Crono

    Crono IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Answering OP, I like D2 high level, and high exp required to reach 99, but I also like D3 no need for stat/skill allocation, so I'd prefer a mix...

    Maybe in a future expansion...
  19. Shaelen

    Shaelen IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I think this is a great way of looking at D3's design choices. I've gone back and messed around with d2 recently, and I can really feel the difference between D2 and D3. One of my favorite changes with D3 is the resource/skill system. It sucked playing D2 and saving all of your stat points and skill points. You weren't "playing" the game until you hit A5 hell and started being able to equip your end game gear. Trying to create a new sorc was torturous until you hit 30/24 to unlock orb/blizz; you could barely cast any spells without chugging mana pots, and it really slowed the game play. I like that D3 allows me to use my skills right away, and it creates faster, more dynamic game play. I definitely prefer D3's leveling style, and I even had a 99 in D2.


  20. Nobody Special

    Nobody Special IncGamers Member

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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    This just about fully somes up my feelings. I tended to play through regularly even with new characters, and that could be a pain as others have mentioned. However, the fact that my build was the one i chose through working hard to save the points and allocate the points as i saw fit was something that truelly made the game for me. I just wish in D2 they had balanced the skills better so there was more viable skill combinations (although i have seen some people with rather unique builds still own).

    The fact they went to an "automatic" as Buddah pointed out really killed it for me as well. There is no "Variance" in characters, as someone see another player doing insanely well, they can just swap their skills to match. It wasn't a premeditated and worked on build that allowed them to fully enjoy the benefits of a well built character.

    Those are my personal feelings though, as the automatic system will probably still pull a wider fanbase, rather than the player's who enjoyed finding their optimum combination, most players want to be able to do anything and everything. Was a good choice on blizzards behalf as it caters to hardcore players (inferno mode and gear) as well as casual players by allowing them to utilize everything in a classes arsenal without having to mess it up and learn from mistakes, then start all over.


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