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What's up with all the crazy conspiracy theories?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by Buen, Jun 22, 2012. | Replies: 50 | Views: 3248

  1. Buen

    Buen IncGamers Member

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    So guys, everywhere I look I see people whining over this and over that, one of the things as oftent follow these comments is that they do 'this and that' to funnel everyone into the RMAH.

    Do people honestly believe these things, or are they just grasping at straws with something to criticise?
    I do realize that alot of these people are just whiners with baseless arguments, but what about the rest of you? What do you think?

    Personally I really, really, really doubt that a company like Blizzard, who isen't excactly running a deficit, would make big game changing decitions just to make 20-30% ekstra of the RMAH, considering how big a risk they have a scaring customers away.


    And if you are a big objective about the reasoning, it makes perfect sense for Blizzard to do alot of the things they do.

    I didn't really have a point to this topic, I just find it so wird that so many people are hugely busy whining and acting up when Blizzard produced a really good game. (If you stop looking from an Elitist entiteled POV) Plenty of my friends aren't that hardcore gamers, and ever after weeks they haven't reached Inferno or even Hell for some.
  2. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    I don't think the RMAH needs to be looked at through rose-tinted glasses, but its presence resonates throughout the game design. If you look at the game with an objective lens and put simple economics in the equation, the relevance is significant. Apply simple opportunity cost into this mix and you'll see why.

    I wrote a fairly long post about it and I might adapt it to a more proper response if you so desire. It's not so much of a conspiracy as much as the application of relevant economic models.
  3. Snakefinger

    Snakefinger IncGamers Member

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    Well they did design the game with the AH in mind, but the biggest problem with people saying blizzard designed the whole game around making money off the RMAH is this: There's also a GAH that you can use. Last time I checked there's plenty of great gear on the GAH.

    Cynicism is a by-product that drives much of the world today. I'm 28 and I really long for simpler days. The internet is single-handedly the greatest and worst thing to happen to the world in the past 100 years.
  4. Skjolde

    Skjolde IncGamers Site Pal

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    Can you give me a link to the the thread where you made a post about it Nizaris? I would like to read it.
  5. mr punk

    mr punk IncGamers Member

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    yes, it's totally a crazy conspiracy theory. big game companies like Blizz, EA, Capcom, etc are just misunderstood. they would never think about designing games with open customizable systems to sell endless products. it's absurd to think the industry discuses ways on how to monetize their games at GDC. no, they only discuss how to make high quality games. obviously, they're completely satisfied with risking millions and millions of dollars with only the possibility to profit from the one time sale of the game.


    exactly. diablo players made up the bulk of D3 millions of sales. this kind of decision would risk turning off this decade old massive player base. besides, they're too discerning to get wool pulled over their eyes like they're zynga players. they only buy complete, highly polished games on day one.


  6. sacridoc

    sacridoc IncGamers Member

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    The game was clearly designed around the AHs. That's both AHs, not just the RMAH. The GAH is very important too. I don't think it's a conspiracy theory to say that Blizzard is testing monetization in their games with the RMAH in preparation for TITAN (their next MMO that is supposed to support the company for years to come). Their goal isn't to make tons of money through the D3 RMAH, it's just to test it out and see how it works while making a little money on the side. The RMAH in D3 isn't designed to be a huge money maker for Blizzard.

    It's undeniable though that the most meaningful change from D2 to D3 is the inclusion of both the gold auction house and the real money auction house. And the game was designed around both.
  7. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/...ith-the-Game&p=8359042&viewfull=1#post8359042

    It's a little dated, but you might have to follow along a bit before understanding where I was coming from.

    The follow up post clarifies a bit on how I'd address the perceived problem:

    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/...ith-the-Game&p=8359139&viewfull=1#post8359139

    The main thing here isn't that the RMAH or GAH exist, or even that the game caters well to them. It's more about the environment that instills a sense of "need" in the average consumer (aka the common denominator of players). Rational buying is an interesting thing (because most of the time consumers don't always conform to the rational consumer model), but if you look at the model Blizzard created from a third party perspective, you'll see how well it caters to the rational consumer.

    The rational consumer, in short, is that an individual will always seek to maximize utility. Right now, the general consensus is that money in lieu of playing the game not only has more utility, but provides more "fun" for the average player.

    The model I'm constructing isn't based on conspiracy, but on common economic practice and understanding. The same ones that Rob Pardo is surely applying as well. Having met the guy and talked with him on a few occasions, I have no doubt in my mind that he sees the game as an economic equation.


  8. sacridoc

    sacridoc IncGamers Member

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    Good points.

    I don't believe we've reached the final destination with how the RMAH will actually work in D3.

    There's a sizable group of people out there who have the best gear available and farm Inferno for the best gear to list on the GAH or RMAH. These people will become increasingly concerned with making real money from D3 over just accumulating gold. This will shift trade from the GAH to the RMAH. When the RMAH was released, the best items were still found on the GAH, but over time I think this will change as the RMAH becomes the focus.

    Eventually, it could be the case that the only way to buy the best items is through the RMAH. If D3 goes in this direction, it will essentially become a PtW game. Where your average naive gamer will play the game through Nightmare or Hell and then realize that they could either try to find items on their own (which at that point they should understand will take a long time). Or they could use real money to buy the best items instantly. At this point, depending on how naive the gamer is, they either quit the game or they invest several hundred dollars in the game perhaps thinking they'll make it back.

    The problem with this design is that it can lead to a serious bottoming out of the player base since a lot of people will not want to pay hundreds of dollars to have the best gear and will feel disadvantaged because they know that farming for the best gear will take a massive amount of time.

    Again, it creates a PtW atmosphere and would likely increase the number of people playing HC by quite a bit.

    Those with the best gear who are willing to farm heavily on a regular basis as a form of income will sell to those with weak gear who want instant gratification and can rationalize paying hundreds of dollars to be good at a game versus investing tons of time or just quitting.

    I don't see this as a conspiracy theory. It just seems inevitable that the people who stick with D3, playing ~12 hours a day, will find the best gear and will be primarily concerned with earning an income off D3. It all depends on whether the GAH sticks around or not. But if you have really high MF + stats and you're farming Inferno, why would you continue to sell items for gold when you could be making an actual income from the RMAH?


  9. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    And who doesn't want to make money? As long as the game is fun, who cares?

    I've played several popular MMO's in the past and D3 is nothing compared to the huge gap between cash and non-cash spenders.

    People love to dramatized their whiny subjective opinions, majority of these whiners are still living in that obsolete D2 bubble and still can't accept the fact that AH and RMAH is what saved the game.


  10. SteveG

    SteveG IncGamers Member

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    A public corporation using unethical business practices in the name of profit?! That’s crazy talk!

    It is my personal belief that D3 was indeed, developed around the RMAH or a “pay to win†mechanic. There are a two facts that I base my opinion on. What I’m gonna list here is FACT, not opinion

    1. Drop rates have been nerfed to account for the RMAH. From Bashiok himself. Translation, you farming is now less effective than if the RMAH did not exist at all.
    2. Character customization that is ENTIRELY gear dependent.

    There are also a couple of observations, that when you look at them with your “D3 built around the RMAH†glasses on, make a lot more sense.

    1. Removal of add sockets/Mystic . Less item customization means higher item turnover, or more $$$ from the RMAH.
    2. Little character viability without AH use. Viability is a subjective term in the context of D3. But, it is my opinion that, the alternative to the RMAH should not be hundreds of hours of farming just to make your character not get one shotted. The addition of PvP is just gonna make this worse, A LOT WORSE.

    So, as you can see, a “Pay to Win†mechanic was indeed added to D3. I’m just reading the writing on the wall. Personally, I believe the “pay to win†mechanic is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming. Blizzard sympathizers, please save us all your BS argument of “heaven forbid Blizzard get paid for their creation!†It’s not about wanting to pay Blizzard or not, it’s about unethical business practices. “Pay to win†is unethical. It’s about core gameplay mechanics being changed to accommodate the “pay to win†mechanic. No full priced game should have an intentionally built in “pay to win†mechanic.

    Why am I still here? I’m hopeful, hopeful that Blizzard changes. I’m hopeful that enough noise can be generated on these boards, on the official boards, other fansite boards that can grab Blizzard’s attention and convince them that game design of this manner will not fly. I liked it so much better when game developers just tried to make fun games.

    The “whiner/hater†label? I, personally, wear it as a badge of honor. It symbolizes my unwillingness to bend over and take it in the you know what from a game developer, even one named Blizzard Entertainment.
  11. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Someone obviously have not played D2lod for the past few years on BNET.


  12. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    sigh.... I don't even know where to start. Nah I'll just log off from the forums and do something else.


  13. Soval

    Soval IncGamers Member

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    I keep hearing people insist, with great drama and self-righteous indignation, that it is obvious that the game was designed, ruined in fact, around the RMAH so Blizzard can nefariously make money -- but I have never seen any of them produce one iota of proof to back of any of this.

    None. Zip, zero, nada.

    Why? Because it isn't true at all.

    Look and see if here are any forum posts, or twitter post, or interviews, or official announcements, or anything from the developers or the CM's that said that they were adding something, or removing something, or balancing something because they wanted to steer people towards the RMAH in order to play the game. You won't find any, because it isn't true.

    And if they are building the game around making money from this mandatory RMAH, why did D3 ship without it? Why is there a Gold Auction House? Why are all the items on it items that were found by players? Why can you find usable, even optimal items at all?

    Why, because they did not build the game around the RMAH.

    If you think otherwise, then please provide proof... not, not anger, or speculation, or conspiracy theories, 'kay.
  14. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

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    I will not say that Blizzard was oblivious to the fact that, by adding an easy way for people to trade and buy items, players would find it the easiest way to get gear, as they noted on several occasions that gamers, on the whole, take the path of least resistance. Nor do I refute the fact that the AH's have had an impact on the game. How that impact is perceived is a whole other issue.

    I am not 100% sold on the concept of the drop rates being affected by the AH's; although Bashiok has said this, tweeted about it as well, Jay Wilson flat out denied it in the AMAA on Reddit...so, either Bash is confused/misinformed, or Jay is a liar. I think the former is more likely, as Bash has made errors in this way before, and Jay loses a lot more if he's lying than Bash does if he is confused. All that said, the dearth of legendary drops, especially in the lower levels, makes this a curious question.

    I feel that Blizzard sold the RMAH to the public as an enhanced trading house, but for many players it has become the de facto boss to farm for gear, because there are some who ca not accept that they cannot progress as fast as they want to in the game, so, of course, Blizzard meant from the beginning for people to use the AH's, and twist the screws accordingly.

    I had some of the same misgivings, to be honest, but I stepped back from the idea, and looked at it in total fairness. Did Jay not say we'd need to farm for months to be viable in Inferno? Yet we complain because Act 2 is too hard after two weeks.

    Ultimately, I believe Blizzard wants the RMAH to succeed and be a solid revenue stream, but I do also believe they do not want that stream at the cost of losing customers due to apathy or emnity. If it was more of an issue of greed, I think we'd see a lot looser end game, less restrictions on postings, etc. I also ultimately believe that we all believe what we want to believe, and often make facts fit our conclusions.



  15. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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  16. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

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  17. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    I'd recommend reading my post earlier in this thread. A game that revolves around the finding and trade of items is intrinsically linked to any medium for trade. Since the most efficient and common form of trade in Diablo 3 is the Auction House, it goes without saying that tuning has a direct impact on the proliferation and selling of items.

    Wyatt Cheng has talked directly about the item curve and where to set it. Their initial tuning for item drops did not consider the AH due to lack of players internally testing, but you can bet your *** that Wyatt has spreadsheets of the item curve and how it will affect the economy when loot bands contract or expand. It's not a conspiracy to theorize that such tuning revolves around trading and finding of items - it's a simple necessity.

    Whether that is for money-grubbing or not, it doesn't matter. Having a concentrated medium for millions to market their items requires the developers to take it into account.

    I'm not somebody who posits conspiracy theories, but I do like to apply academic models to things like this, and you'll see what I mean in my previous post.

    If at the end of my post you still disagree, I would encourage a well-thought-out reply in explaining how I'm incorrect.


  18. sacridoc

    sacridoc IncGamers Member

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    First of all... some people believe that Blizzard dynamically adjusts drop rates based on what is on the AH, which seems pretty ridiculous. That's not the same as some of the ideas in this thread.

    They definitely designed the game with the AHs in the front of their minds. This HAS been mentioned in statements by Blizzard.

    But again, thinking they adjust drop rates in real time is conspiracy theory material...
    ____

    1) The game was designed around BOTH AHs, not just the RMAH. The drop rates are obviously less than what you see in D2 for the highest level gear. The gear is also more varied with the removal of truly meaningful unique items, so it's even less likely that you'll get the exact item you want. And the difficulty of Inferno provides another barrier to getting the best gear. It's undoubtedly harder to get the best items in D3 vs D2. This was a necessary move for Blizzard because they had to compensate for the AH making it so much easier to access gear than in D2.

    2) Blizzard is not trying to make massive amounts of money off the D3 RMAH. It's a trial run for TITAN and a way to test monetization in their games. They care more about how it's used than how much money they make off it. There's a GAH because it allows Blizzard to see how people use each one. Also, does D3 really strike anyone as a game that had massive funding behind it? I mean it's Blizzard yeah, and it was in development for 10 years or whatever, but overall this game doesn't seem like it broke the bank for them really. I really think a lot of what D3 is about is testing the RMAH for future titles. Compared to an MMO, D3 is an extremely shallow game.

    3) Blizzard doesn't have to force people to use the RMAH with tricks or conspiracies. Simply including a real money feature in the game as they have will drive people in that direction. They would have to deliberately make it terrible to use for people to avoid it.

    4) People seemed to be confused about the difference between good items, great items and perfect items in D3. There are a lot of items that are good and useable that you may find every now and then, but the best items in D3 are insanely rare. It almost makes me wonder if the $250 RMAH cap will result in the creation of a black market.

    5) Here's one statement by Bashiok: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150764997?page=3#49

    That post clearly states that elements of the game have to be altered because trade is much easier in D3... it's not a controversial statement really, it's really obvious and not unacceptable honestly.


  19. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

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    That follow up post was excellent. Any thoughts on my remarks re Bash vs. Jay? It seemed to me they were at cross purposes, but maybe they were speaking of two different philosophies?



  20. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    You are missing the point of this thread. It is all well and good to say that Blizzard has spreadsheets etc to take into account the impact of the AHs in considering the economy and "loot bands". There is nothing wrong with that and is for the good of the game.

    It is however another thing altogether to spout (not referring to you) crazy conspiracy theories that Blizzard has some nefarious plan to continuously adjust the gameplay and loot table in order to squeeze every red cent of profit out of the RMAH at the expense of us poor gamers. That's loony talk.


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