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Weapon Throw Discussion

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Karth, Dec 31, 2012. | Replies: 11 | Views: 5353

  1. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    okay, so we all know that whirlwind+sprint is the current Barb powerhouse, but I want to see some discussion of Weapon Throw-based builds, too!

    First, the runes for Weapon Throw:

    Mighty Throw - I like this one for all-around use. It has a 1.0 proc coefficient so you're generating 14-29 fury every time you crit with it and 169% damage (253% with a 50% Three Hundredth Spear!) is not shabby at all. Great for builds that use Weapon Throw as single target damage and a fury generator and other skills for AoE damage.

    Ricochet - Not my favorite, largely because the proc coefficient (.33) leaves you not generating fury quickly or reliably when you're in a tight spot against one or two targets. 130% (195%) weapon damage + slow vs three targets for free or very little fury is nice, but I feel that you can get better crowd control effects than slowing from other skills.

    Throwing Hammer - Another favorite of mine. 1.0 proc coefficient and a 50%(!) chance to stun with each hit means you can generate lots of fury and pretty much lock down a single target. Plus it feels really good to throw a hammer at something and see little stars appear around the monster's head. Don't ask why, it just does.

    Stupefy - Skills that cause Confusion definitely sow chaos on the battlefield, but I prefer more predictable proc effects and monsters; this one doesn't interest me when Throwing Hammer is an option.

    Dread Bomb - Fairly nasty AoE damage from full fury, but then you no longer have full fury. :/ I can think of a lot more interesting things to do with a full fury bulb.

    Other skills I like in combination with Weapon Throw:

    Seismic Slam (Stagger, Shattered Ground, Strength from the Earth) - A great addition to make a totally ranged build. Stagger can keep things pretty well locked down with enough attack speed, Shattered Ground does pretty good damage and can knock back anything but yellow mobs and very very large mobs, and Strength from the Earth is great for a power leveling build - it costs so little and can pay for itself with just one proc of Battle Rage.

    Leap - Get out of Jail Free card plus a mobility aid and emergency fury generator. I prefer the stunning rune over Toppling Impact as some enemies aren't subject to being knocked back easily. The other runes are oriented more towards melee builds.

    Sprint - worth a mention for any barb build of course. Marathon for solo play and Forced March for multiplayer/power leveling. Run like the Wind is nice but I don't think it works well with a ranged weapon throw build.

    Ignore Pain - an option for countering Reflect if necessary, but I don't find Reflect a problem and other skills give you more options when it comes to defense.

    Ancient Spear - synergizes well with The Three Hundredth Spear and No Escape, though I can't say I enjoy having enemies in my face. Dread Spear can return horrifying amounts of life, but the other runes seem lackluster for this build if you ask me.

    Battle Rage - So good with Weapon Throw that it is almost required. Into the Fray + No Escape gives you tons of fury, Bloodshed turns any Weapon Throw rune into an AoE, and I guess Marauder's Rage could be useful if you didn't want or need either of those effects.

    Other skills and passives - Hammer of the Ancients isn't really a ranged skill but deserves an honorable mention; with Battle Rage (Bloodshed) + HotA (Smash) and a full fury bulb you can do really funny things to packs (elite or not). War Cry is useful as always but maybe not necessary since you have the option of being a ranged character. WotB is powerful as always; either Insanity for burning down monsters or Thrive for keeping WotB up for longer fights. I can't really manage perma-WotB with my weapon throw builds, but then, I've never really tried very hard for it. Ruthless, Weapons Master, and No Escape are my passives of choice, but Unforgiving and Bloodthirst could have a place there as well.

    I'll leave gear for another post maybe; I wanna see what kind of action this thread gets first.
  2. tougeznut

    tougeznut IncGamers Member

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    I tried a throw build when I had a bunch of extra gold laying around. Bought a 300th spear, a high fear EF, and a -5 fury cost IK belt. The single target damage was amazing, but since I wasn't ready for Ubers I switched back to a Sprint build.

    I never though of using the blood eruption rune though, that might significantly improve aoe damage. It still feels like throwing is best used for a hypothetical PvP scenario though. You could just max attack speed, crit chance, and crit damage, while ignoring any defensive stats and go for a complete glass canon. With 20% chance of fear from EF and a super high APS you could easily keep any attacker at bay.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
  3. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    I guess there aren't a lot of people using or thinking about Weapon Throw. :(

    I do think it has potential for pvp, though I'm not sure I'd want to play a glass cannon for such. Barbs have good passive defenses, but relatively poor active defenses compared to other classes; they might not make good glass cannons in pvp situations.
  4. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    I'd love to play a throw barb, but I still can't believe there's no fury generating throw skill like frenzy and bash. It seems like they've (once again) gone out of their way to make throwing button intensive. In a dueling environment where you're not regaining fury from mobs, that could be quite a handicap. Now, having played a hybrid pvp jav barb in the D2 days, I am all in favor of mixing melee and throwing skills, but, throwing, to me, feels like a tacked on weak sister to the other barb skills. That said, I will be testing it out once dueling goes live. I'm more than a little skeptical, though, as we won't be able to spam like good old double through, and we still have no auto hit skill like guided arrow. If your opponent manages to dodge a couple throws, you'll start running out of fury pretty quickly.

    One approach that seems promising is ancient spear with rage flip against other barbs. Knock 'em back; throw a little bit; run around until ancient spear resets; rinse and repeat.
  5. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Weapon throw can pretty easily generate more fury than it spends (via Battle Rage and No Escape) even without using anything to reduce its cost. Once you get into a moderate amount of reduced weapon throw cost gear (say, an IK belt) you're easily generating fury with any decent crit chance, and if you double up and reduce the cost with a second piece (SoJ, Mara's, or Skull Grasp) you're able to generate some serious fury even with only one of Battle Rage (Into the Fray) or the No Escape passive.

    I think if anything, a pvp barb with Weapon Throw will be a stronger threat than double throw barbs ever had hope to be in D2. Warcry to get your minimum 1 fury to start spamming (I understand you have to have 1 fury to use a skill even if you've reduced the skill's cost to 0 via equipment), sling axes or hammers as you prefer until you've got some fury, use ancient spear to bring them in and top off that last 15 fury, then HotA (Smash) or something to make the kill. Or there are lots of other ways you could go with it. Sure, it isn't auto-aiming, but the projectiles do move fast and even the fastest characters can't continually move as evasively in D3 as the did in D2 (compared to projectile speed).
  6. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    That's all well and good...as long as you hit something. As for being stronger than D2 throwbarbs, while I'd enjoy that, I seriously doubt it. In classic they stunk because there we no weapons, but through 09 my jav barb (throw/ww/zerk hybrid) could beat just about anyone but the very best teleporting sorcs.

    Here's a major problem I see with throwing (and really all barbs). Warcry to get started, but not enough fury to cast rage, so no fury from crits. You need a second fury generator just to get started. As a throwbarb, it seems like you will have to hit with ancient spear to get going. For all of us, we're going to have to be very inventive to get the ball rolling unless we fury up before the duels start. And I'm guessing most people won't look too sympathetically on that.

    Then again, with the screwed up no-dodge hitbox, who knows? I would assume they would have to change that for pvp, but they've missed on a lot of things I assumed they would do.
  7. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    You need to quote patches with D2; otherwise I assume you're referring to the latest, where throwbarbs suffer from various problems. I use latest-patch as my mental standard, rather than referring to any sort of 'good ole days.'

    As for your concerns with fury generation, I assume that a well-made throwbarb will have gear to reduce Weapon Throw to at most 1 fury (between Mighty belts, Mara's amulets, SoJs, and Skull Grasps) and potentially 0 fury; it is pretty cheap to get to this point and mostly eliminates concerns with fury generation, as one crit is enough fury for 14 (No Escape only) to 29 (No Escape + Battle Rage) more throws. You seem to have overlooked the patch change to No Escape? It provides 14 fury on a successful proc when you crit with Weapon Throw. So in your situation, the barbarian uses War Cry to get 20 fury, starts throwing until he crits or maybe uses Ancient Spear, then probably has enough fury to cast Battle Rage safely and can generate 29 fury/crit, thus having spare resources for whatever he wants to dump fury into.

    I think we have to assume that hitboxes will stay pretty large. If they change this for pvp it instantly eliminates the ability of people with abnormal latency to participate in pvp like the rest of us can, and remember, the D3 server coverage is designed such that some people will have pretty big latency (IE, all those poor people in AU and NZ playing on The Americas with constant 200ms latency). There are other ways to 'dodge' projectiles, though, and I don't anticipate D3 pvp being quite so 'twitchy' as D2; a few hits likely won't mean instant demise, for similar reasons on top of such twitchyness being, well, bad. But like you said, who knows?

    I honestly prefer to discuss Weapon Throw in respect to pvm right now due to the lack of info on pvp. I do enjoy theoretical discussions, but I find them unproductive if there is too great a lack of information.
  8. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    I'm pretty sure you brought up pvp in post #3...just sayin. ;) Anyway, one more thing about this: I'm thinking warcry with charge might become popular for all barbs. Without a templar follower, you can't cast warcry (impunity) + rage to get started.

    As for pvm, I think people don't talk about it much because it's sort of like thrower pvm in D2 (good old days or latest patch)--kind of a fun gimmick but not very useful in the long run. For me it is nowhere near as efficient as ww/sprint and--and I don't know how this is possible--even more button intensive. Well...that and this forum is pretty dead.
  9. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    ^ This is where pvp discussion started.

    You don't need a templar's bonus or even No Escape to 'get started' with a throw barb; you can use full IK and/or Unforgiving to get fury regen by the second, and since you'll probably always be 'in combat' during pvp, fury won't degenerate on its own. Pvp definitely won't be like PvM, though; you'll need a way to get resources without jumping into danger vs a lot of builds.

    Sure it isn't the most efficient thing for most pvm (I'm not so sure about power leveling - throwing can generate huge fury for your AoEs and keeping Sprint (Forced March) going) but I still enjoy doing things differently sometimes. If I wanted to be efficient I would spend real money for the gear I want and finish off my last three paragon levels entirely by running MP0/1 with a Skorn+IK sprint/ww build. Instead I prefer not to be bored to death. :p
  10. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

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    Unfortunately, for this game, that ship is very far out to sea...
  11. snurrfint

    snurrfint IncGamers Member

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    I've been using a throw-barb since release. She doesn't have super gear or anything but the build is definitely really strong for PvE.

    I use Dread Spear to generate enough fury to begin casting. It also serves as a great life saver as it fills the health globe in one hit. And with crits it of course resets the CD so that you can throw it again. It is also good to generate fury when out of combat to get a few extra sprints out for traveling. (Note that dread spear can crit barrels and other stuff as well for extra fury and CD reset)

    Also, the thing OP says about Ricochet for WT is not true. It's the best rune period. For PvE you'll need the extra targets. It's generating more life with life steal, and will clear rooms faster. You'll need the AOE aspect of Ricochet. Maybe if you'll combine Mighty Throw with Seismic Slam you can get the AOE part but that requires an extra skill slot and I rather use that fury to spam sprint tbh.

    This is my char. Right now I have Ignore pain instead of sprint because I've been running Ubers, but you'll get the idea.

    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/snurrfint-2384/hero/7114429
  12. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    How is it not true? If I must rely on Weapon Throw to generate fury, Ricochet leaves me with a .55*.33= 18% chance to generate 29 fury. 18% is low enough that your chances of throwing for several seconds vs a single target without generating any fury is non-negligible; this I do not like. If you're using Ancient Spear, you have another generator to fall back on and my statement remains true. Admittedly my crit chance could get higher, but this still won't make an enormous change to the reliability of fury generation unless you go far out of your way (build changes, suboptimal gear) to do so.

    Also, I see no way to deny that there are better skills for crowd control than a 60% slow vs three targets. 70% chance to stun in a cone AoE, 100% chance to stun in a 10 yard radius on kill, knockback vs almost anything in a cone AoE, and others.

    I'm not saying Ricochet isn't nice for Ricochet builds, but it isn't my favorite Weapon Throw rune. A build with 130% weapon damage vs at most three targets as its primary AoE and primary single target skill just doesn't float my boat.

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