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% weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by thebrightarmy, Sep 29, 2011. | Replies: 24 | Views: 6480

  1. thebrightarmy

    thebrightarmy IncGamers Member

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    % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    I apologize in advance if this thread exists in another form somewhere, I searched and couldn't find anything.

    Here are my two concerns -

    So many skills base their damage off of "% weapon damage" - and not just skills that use weapons.

    -Wizard's spectral blade
    -Monk's lashing tail kick
    -and even (this is the one that got me worried) WD's swarm of locusts.

    1. These are all a little weird, like, why would my swarm of locusts care what type of weapon I'm carrying? Does this bother anyone else?

    2. From what I've read, the % weapon damage stat just looks at your weapon's base damage - it doesn't factor in DPS, elemental affixes, dual wielding, or anything like that.

    So any character using a % weapon damage skill is encouraged to use a big 2-handed weapon - even casters and classes that want to focus on attack speed (like a crit-based melee monk who wants to use dual weapons to get in more attacks).

    Maybe that's ok, and casters and dual wielders can just forego the % weapon damage skills and use skills that scale damage based on level... but it does seem like there are LOT of these % weapon damage skills. Maybe too many to just forego them.

    I wonder if there's anything in the works to address this. I hope so.

    I will admit though, I kind of want to build a witch doctor that uses a huge 2-handed bow with plague of locusts now...
     
  2. Ohgodagain

    Ohgodagain IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Blizzard has said many times that their goal was that if you took two one handed weapons and one big two handed weapon their overall dps output, assuming their of the same quality, will be similar.

    It's a style preference.
     
  3. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    That doesn't mean they succeeded yet on making good on that goal. IIRC, Demon Hunters have a strong disparity between the two styles.
     
  4. Ohgodagain

    Ohgodagain IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding


    Mmmm, hard to say after the DH changes. With hatred generating skills it looks like there is enough hatred to go around to spam with duelies to keep up with the big two handed bow.


     
  5. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    This is how it works:
    2handers are slower.
    Dual wield gives 10% bonus attack speed.
    1handers are faster.

    Dual wield should be 10% more attacks than single target and will *hopefully* equal out to 2hand. 100% balance is not guaranteed, this is not an issue.
     
  6. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    This subject is very complicated because of the way Blizzard are choosing to handle dual wielding.

    Basically, the stats on the "off-hand" item (whether its a shield or other non-weapon) need to be balanced against the 10% faster attack speed you gain. So in the case of the 1h + shield vs dual wield, the defense advantage and stats provided by the shield need to be balanced vs the 10% attack speed gain + the weapon stats.

    But in the case of 2h vs dual wield, it's balanced on the difference in DPS from a 1h weapon to a 2h weapon. So that means the extra stats on the offhand item + 10% attack speed vs the increase in DPS from a 2h weapon as opposed to a 1h.
     
  7. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    I'd imagine the stats on a 2hander are approximately twice as high as a 1hander, but maybe not. If they are, then dual wielding 50 dps weapons vs a 110 dps 2hander should be pretty much balanced. This is not necessarily true for witch doctors, but might be also true for wizards.
     
  8. Spens

    Spens IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Faster weapons generate resources faster, which allows you to use your resources spenders more frequently.
    For example two weapons

    Weapon 1
    50 damage
    2 attacks per second
    100 damage per second


    Weapon 2

    100 damage
    1 attack per second
    100 damage per second

    Using Weapon 1, Barbarian's Bash will generate 12 Fury a second. This means he can generate 20 Fury for Hammer of the Ancients once every 1.67 seconds. Hammer of the Ancients does [50 Damage]*[180%] = 90 Damage. 90 Damage every 1.67 seconds is 53.9 DPS for Hammer of the Ancients.


    Using Weapon 2, Barbarian's Bash will generate 6 Fury a second. This means he can generate 20 Fury for Hammer of the Ancients once every 3.33 seconds. Hammer of the Ancients does [100 Damage]*[180%] = 180 Damage. 180 Damage every 3.33 seconds is 53.9 DPS for Hammer of the Ancients.
     
  9. Strill

    Strill IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    It's +15% Attack Speed for dual wielding. And fyi, high-end quivers give +12~13% attack speed anyway so it doesn't make much difference. In order to keep both options balanced, +damage, which favors 1h weapons, needs to be as common as +APS, which favors 2h weapons. From the database we have at the moment, it doesn't look like that's the case. I looked over the Demon Hunter gear and compared the DPS difference between Dual Wielding and 2h weapons with the most +APS bonuses I could find and no +damage bonuses. 2h did about 55% more DPS than dual wielding. So if they really want them to be balanced, they'd better come out with plenty of flat +damage bonuses to compete with those +APS bonuses.

    This is my summary:

    1h Weapons:
    PRO:
    • Flat +damage favors 1h weapons.
    • Less Overkill
    • Dual Wielding gives +15% Attack Speed
    • Higher attack speed means more utility skills, unlike higher damage.
    CON:
    • Attack speed improves Active resource regen, but not passive resource regen.
    • Attack speed does not change skill cooldowns, which means high cooldown attacks will contribute less DPS.
    • Flat +damage bonuses are rare
    • Dual Wielding a bad weapon lowers your dps

    2h Weapons:
    PRO:
    • +APS bonuses favor 2h weapons.
    • +APS bonuses are common.
    • Legendary Offhand Quivers give +12~13% Attack Speed
    • High damage improves the damage you get from both active and passive resource regen, unlike high attack speed.
    • Only need to get one weapon with perfect stats
    • Higher Base DPS.
    CON:
    • More Overkill
    • Less attack speed means fewer utility skills

    *Passive resource regen is resources you get over time. Active resource regen is resources you get from using skills.


    An interesting tidbit is that even if they were both balanced to have the same overall DPS, Dual Wielding would still deal less damage since high attack speed doesn't improve passive resource regen, while the extra damage on 2h weapons does improve the damage of attacks gained from passive regen. Similarly, Dual Wielding doesn't change skill cooldowns, so high cooldown attacks are still about twice as good with a 2h weapon than with dual wielding.

    In Dual Wielding's favor, however, is the fact that the extra resources from high attack speed can get you additional utility skills, and other skills not based on weapon damage.

    With their stance that things should just be "close enough", and accepting that theorycrafters will always find ways to min-max, I'm honestly worried that Blizzard really isn't thinking things through. They want dual wielding and 2h weapons to be an aesthetic choice, but I've already established here that even if they were both balanced with the same final DPS, dual wielding would still have a large advantage for utility, and 2h would have a large advantage for damage. That directly contradicts Blizzard's statements on the matter.


     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011
  10. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    55% damage gain vs increased utility use is an acceptable playstyle difference. Killing speed isn't the only thing that matters, the game is mostly about having fun. For the players who like to min-max, the option is there, but +55% damage is not game breaking. Higher attack speed is also beneficial for other reasons: you aren't locked into your attack as long, so you can run away from something bad, or when you're low on health sooner; really weak monsters can be killed faster; life/mana gained per hit effects; chance to cast might be added in the future.
     
  11. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    That doesn't mean higher or even the same amount of damage, mind you. Fury is also generated from damage taken in addition to damage dealt, which works to the 2h barbarian's advantage even if you take the dual-wielding attack speed bonus into account. To expand upon your math with that in mind (assuming an extra 6 rage per second from damage influx):

    Using Weapon 1, you generate 18 fury a second (12 + 6). It takes 1.11 sec to generate 20 fury, which does 90 damage. 90 damage every 1.11 seconds equals 81 DPS (93 DPS with 15% AS).

    Using Weapon 2, you generate 12 fury a second (6 + 6). It takes 1.67 sec to generate 20 fury, which does 180 damage. 180 damage every 1.67 seconds equals 108 DPS.​

    Naturally, this is all just an example as we don't know the actual fury generation rates, but the gist of my post is that the higher the barbarian's passive fury generation (damage influx, passives, skills/runes), the more the dual-wielding barbarian will fall behind in terms of sheer DPS. Having more reliable access to utility skills might make up for it, though.


     
  12. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    We don't have chance to cast, but barbs do have extra fury on hit and on crit effects, like fury gain and healing, all of which is more effective with dual-wielding. If the critical elemental damage effects are still in the game, then those also favor faster attack speeds.


     
  13. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Yeah, unless they redesign the math again, dual wielding will be the crit build.

    It's not really an aesthetic choice anymore, but some would consider this a good thing. As long as they keep the two styles viable.
     
  14. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Also stuff like this http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/hack

    The choice is up to you. 2handing might be better, but not by such a significant margin that dual wielding will make the game less fun. You might notice you kill faster with a 2hander when it's better than your previous weapons, but dual wield vs 2handers when the weapons are on par shouldn't be greatly different, the main difference will probably just be how it "feels" swinging slower and hitting harder.


     
  15. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Good comparison Strill, but I have a few remarks about it.

    1H pros:

    I think some people don't realize how important this may become. Diablo games throw heaps of monsters at you at a time, quite a few of which are usually some type of weak, swarmer type of enemies to keep you busy. You can kill these much faster if you dual-wield, because of less overkill. Damage is not everything.

    Also, on hit and on crit effects favor fast weapons as well.

    1H cons:

    I agree, but how does this make 1H worse than 2H? Active resource regens are mostly flat numbers, like +1 fury per hit, which will always favors fast weapons. There are regens in the game that are based on damage percentages (life leech for example), but in the long-term those shouldn't favor either weapon types. Feel free to correct me though.

    We don't know that. In fact, I've seen quite a few bonuses like that in the beta videos.

    The 15% attack speed bonus should counter this somewhat, although if you use a really horrible weapon in your off-hand, then your DPS will still suffer. Although this is only a problem with skills, that alternate between your two weapons, or so I think. So far there's only two attacks that I know of that work like this: Frenzy and your basic attack. Everything else uses your main weapon only, or hits simultaneously with both of your weapons (the latter is just an assumption on my part).

    2H pros:

    So? Some end-game one-handed crossbows also have around 0.2 APS bonuses, which is about a 10% boost for them.

    See what I wrote about active regens favoring fast weapons.

    True, but you also lose an extra socket and enchantment on your off-hand item.


     
  16. Strill

    Strill IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    It depends on which attack you're using. Hungering Arrow, for example, deals a lot of damage overall but deals a small amount of damage per hit, making its overkill minimal regardless of weapon.
    On hit yes, but attack speed has no effect on the average damage of on-crit effects unless the on-crit effect deals flat damage. If it deals a percentage of your weapon damage, it's not going to be any better with high attack speed.

    If your concern is damage, then doubling your attack speed will give you less than double DPS because your active regen was doubled, but your passive regen was not doubled. On the other hand, if you double your damage by picking a 2h weapon, that WILL result in double DPS.

    If you're choosing between double attack speed with dual wield or double damage with 2h, the 2h will improve your DPS more.


    I'll accept that.



    I've seen blizzard posts saying something about alternating between weapons. I was under the impression it applied to everything. I'll have to go look it up.


    Because it mostly negates Dual Wielding's +15% Attack speed bonus.


    No you don't. Demon Hunters have Quivers. I'm sure other classes have their own off-hand items.


     
  17. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Blizzard said some items won't be able to have sockets, i imagine quivers are amongst them.
     
  18. thebrightarmy

    thebrightarmy IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Interesting. I hadn't really thought about the bonuses you get from active resource regeneration: more hits = more resources spenders.

    That's all well and good ... but what about the wizard and WD?

    If my primary attacks (say swarm of locusts and firebomb) use %weapon damage, I'm going to have little incentive to use a Wanga doll or whatever those things are. Ditto with wizards.

    Also, does it seem to anyone else that the skills in the skill calculator tool have progressively switched over to being ALL % weapon damage based? I seem to remember some of them being integers, and now they're all % weapon damage. Hm. If that's the case, maybe they're doing that to make all the classes symmetrical, and they'll just work to balance dual wield/2h/1h ...

    I'm just interested to see how that will work. We know dual wielding gives you an attack speed bonus, but so far no casting speed bonus. I'm worried right now that 2h weapons will be less balanced for casters than melee/ranged chars.
     
  19. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    Good point.

    I'm not talking about on-crit damage, but stuff like flat amount of life and resource gain. Or have you accounted for those in your comparison somewhere and I just missed it?

    Ah, I see what you mean, and I agree.

    If you can find an official quote about this, that would be great. So far from the beta testers' reports (mainly from Kastigar's) it looks like most abilities use your main hand weapon only for damage calculations, at least for the barb.

    OK, so it's less of a problem for the DH, but what about a barb who uses a two-handed weapon?

    EDIT: Just checked the enchantment database again and it seems like two-handers will get their own enchantments, presumably with more stats. Extra sockets will still favor dual-wielding though.


     
  20. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: % weapon damage skills discourage dual wielding

    For them, weapon choice will probably be balanced by the Wizard and Witch Doctor only damage bonuses like the one you can see on Chantodo's Protector for example. Presumably these will modify your damage in a way, that would make these one-handed items on par with the two-handers (probably by multiplying the base damage of the weapons).

    I certainly think they're changing the skills for that reason. Although some abilities are still left with their weapon independent damage, like Wave of Light.


     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011

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