Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

Ultimate monk guide

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ElementEight, May 30, 2012. | Replies: 24 | Views: 14277

  1. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    First, you need to reach level 60. That's easy, since the market is overflooded with cheap, high damage weapons. Get one of those and replace it every 7-10 levels or so. If you can, a socket can really kick up your early damage with a ruby. You should dual weild. You should also socket a helm with such to boost your experience. Every piece of gear you wear should include dexterity, vitality and attack speed. Anything else can be nice, but superfluous.

    Skills and runes you choose hardly matter at this point, but I suggest a mix of the following. Don't get two mantras, and don't get two generators.

    Fist of Thunder
    Crippling Wave
    Sweeping Wind
    Breath of Heaven
    Serenity
    Mantra of Conviction
    Mantra of Healing

    As for passives, resolve, seize the initiative, guardian's path and transcendence are all good choices.

    Once you hit 60, Inferno opens up.

    Whip out one of the following items:

    [​IMG]

    ...and pick one resistance at random. Say, arcane.

    Now, you'll sift through the auction house looking for items with: All resistances, arcane resistance, attack speed, dexterity, vitality, and many sockets.

    Good values will look like this, kinda:

    15-20% attack speed
    ~50 arcane resistance
    ~60 all resistances
    ~100+++ vitality
    ~100+++ dexterity
    1-3 sockets depending on the slot

    Once you have every slot of gear with at least 3-4 of each stats, around such values, you're ready to use a new skillset! No, not really. Just go for runes that are more defense oriented, like concussion for crippling wave and so on.

    Make sure you use the One With Everything passive. Your arcane resistance will turn into all resistance, giving you a big survivability boost. Oh, and Time of Need on Mantra of Healing is pretty kickass as well, improving that amount by another 20%.

    Enjoy
  2. Hadrial

    Hadrial IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Good guide, sounds exactly right.
  3. nolan16

    nolan16 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    143
    I'm only using one of your suggested skills, passives look okish. Also, no Near Death Experience?
  4. Couscous

    Couscous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Is this ironic? To be honest the only things I agree on are the attack speed and the serenity skill. Obviously the more dex/vit/+ res the better, but the other stuff is based on your preferences.
    One with everything is good when you need to stack res quickly at first, but after you get a little wealth you should switch to all res and free a passive slot. Don't understand why so many people disregard way of the hundred fists, it's pretty good. You might want to get life per spirit spent and spirit regen, also crit chance with a lot of builds. Also after reaching a relatively high hit points you'd like to stack a ton of dexterity not only for damage but for massive dodge. With high dodge and good attack speed you will barely get hit by melees. One final tip, damage isn't everything for a monk, I'd happily sacrifice some damage for more life per spirit and other mods. Sadly at this point that is really really expensive.
  5. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120

    dex doesnt scale well the interresting regions of the dex to dodge ratio are beyond what any monk could ever achieve ; also In Inferno champions will be your biggest problem. and many critical effects cannot be dodged ; the only elemental that are dodgeable are that electricity thingy and mortar ; but stuff like molten / plague / firechains can downright melt your face even with extensive kiting.

    so AR / all resist is the only way to go ; dodge is a bonus but its not reliable and does not work for many challanges at all.


  6. Couscous

    Couscous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    I agree on that in part, it doesn't scale well. But achieving +50% is not that hard, using mantra of evasion and the passive that gives 15% dodge I'm at nearly 60% dodge and it makes a huge difference. You still need other defenses of course, that it's just a piece of the puzzle, but in my opinion it improves survivality in a great amount. I'm in inferno too. Try the Belial fight, you can stand still punching him and only move when he throws the meteors. Defeated him multiple times without barely getting hit. Not saying is god mode nor anything similar, just that it helps a lot.
  7. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    It's ok, they're just suggestions. I got to 60 in 3 days (not even playing all day) so it worked for me. Note that I had some gold for twinking up.

    My experience with NDE is that if you procc it once, you'll probably procc it again. If you get in a situation where you die once, you probably will again, because it'll be the result of something cheesy (vortex+jailer+desecrate+x, for instance). Plus, by having less defense (you skip either 15% dodge, healing on spirit spent or 25% reduction for it), you obviously occasion more NDE proccs.

    Dex/vit are necessary to have a minimum of; they provide the basic health pool, dodge and damage you'll be scaling off of. Attack speed is obviously necessary as well, as attacks = spirit = survival. I hardly see how you can skip on either Mantra of Healing or Conviction. Evasion suffers from severe diminishing returns, therefore making it inferior to Healing defensively, even more so then Time of Need is taken into consideration.

    No. You should stack more resistances. The goal of OWE is to have +all resists beyond what any other class can achieve, as resists are by far the best and most easily acquired purely defensive stat, beyond Vitality, which you will have if you've followed my item build.

    It does less damage per second than FoT. Its attack speed is also lower, reducing spirit generation. It also doesn't knockback. The only thing it has going for it is some AoE, though barely when compared to Thunderclap or the 5th rune (chain lightning).

    Life per spirit spent: Very rare mod, generally around 10 hps on the items I've seen (perhaps unlucky). Though, this means that a whole bulb gives you something like 1500 health. Laughable.

    Spirit regen: Not worth the stats slot unless it happens to be there as like, the 6th stats. Spawns rarely as well, not that useful since the build only has Mantra of Healing to spam outside cooldowns. And you want it only once per 3 seconds. The cooldowns aren't very hungry themselves.

    Dodge has big diminishing returns, especially through dex. It falls off a lot after 800 dex. Regardless of this, resistances scale the same way dodge would in terms of effective hit points.

    For some reason, you seem to believe that dodge only works against melee attacks, which has me questionning your experience (the resistance comment ticked me off as well). What have you cleared, out of curiosity?

    Resistance also provides "life", which is much easier and cheaper to acquire than spirit-spent-to-health and regen. They can spawn on any pieces, too, unlike spirit related stuff.


  8. Athenau

    Athenau IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Since when does dex/dodge not scale well? It scales _better_ than both armor and resists. Effective health scales linearly with armor. Your dodge chance scales linearly with dex, which means that your effective health scales super-linearly with dex.

    If your dodge chance is kd where k is some constant and d is your dex, your chance to be hit is 1-kd, and your effective health multiplier is 1/(1-kd). This is asymptotic to infinity at d=1/k and grows much faster than any linear function.

    People seem to be confused because dodge has breakpoints where additional points in dex have a lower benefit, but the scaling is still linear between breakpoints. You might only get .01% dodge per point of dex after 1000 (the last breakpoint) as opposed to .1% for each point below 100, but you will always get .01% per point above 1000, because the scaling is linear.

    Maybe some numbers will help. Against mlvl 60 enemies:

    1000 armor 25% DR +33.3% EHP
    2000 armor 40% DR +66.6% EHP
    3000 armor 50% DR +100% EHP
    4000 armor 57% DR +133.35 EHP

    1000 dex 30% dodge +43% EHP
    2000 dex 40% dodge +66% EHP
    3000 dex 50% dodge +100% EHP
    4000 armor 60% dodge +150% EHP

    At no point is dodge worse in terms of EHP than armor, and you can clearly the super-linear EHP scaling at work.

    That isn't to say you want to dump everything into dex, you want a relatively even balance of dodge/resists/armor for best results, but dodge does not scale worse than other forms of mitigation, in fact it scales better.
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  9. Couscous

    Couscous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Athenau you are right, would have been better if we said diminishing returns. As a monk you get past the last breakpoint fairly quick.
    Elementeight I never said dodge only worked for melee to start. Second a mod being rare or that you haven't seen much doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I've seen items with 50 life per spirit, one of my weapons has nearly 40 to start with. The point you make about the resistances is valid though, stacking one kind + the all res mod might get nice resists, isn't there a cap or diminishing returns?
    About the spirit generators are you sure? I tried em all and hundred fists seems to out damage the others but not sure. Also I think it is fists of fury if I recall correctly acts similar as thunderclap, dashing and knockbacking, not sure about that too. Crippling wave is nice but seems to regenerate spirit more slowly, which can be a downside if you don't have decent spirit regeneration. Also does less damage. About the mantras, after the nerf to boon of protection I tried overawe for a while, but found the evasion mantras helped me more with survivality against elites. Now that I have better gear I might give a try with the healing one, although save the one with 20% res the others seem lackluster.
  10. Kaynar

    Kaynar IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Sorry but for inferno fists of thunder is not a good choice. In fact, Deadly Reach + Keen armor glyphs are a MUST for starters in act 1 inferno. Crippling wave is a no-go compared to deadly reach because many mobs with shielding or invulnarable minions as well as archers and casters will not be affected by the -20% damage done glyph which would need to be used in order to survive. Mantra of healing with resistances or mantra for dodge with extra armor are the 2 best options atm. I'll agree for the passives and the other skills you mention. Someone here mentioned "why no near death experience passive?" The answer is simple: if you died once your probably going to die again very soon, you should invest your passive to help you take more damage, not to ignore death once every 90sec. Deadly reach also provides a ranged attack which saves you from walking into plague and with some good moving from molten and desectrator as well.

    About the diminishing returns: what has been said above is right suggesting that your target is a lvl60 monster. A lvl61, 62, 63 or 64 monster in different acts will require MUCH more resistances before you resistances number starts to have bad diminishing returns. E.g. I have 770 resistances, vs a lvl60 target its about 60% dmg reduction if i can recall. But vs a lvl63 its more like 45-50% which means that there are still no heavy diminishing returns.
  11. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120

    first off all you'll never get beyond 2k dex anyway. id say that most monks will never go beyond 1,5 k

    second. Armor has a lower Itembudget than Dex. so comparing them 1:1 is not very sensible either.

    third: dodging is simply not solid because not everything can be dodged. and on some hits i dont want to rely on dodging in the first place. If iam in Inferno Belial and i have the choice between 50% editional EHP through Dodge or through 50% more EHP through AR / Resist
    I would always go for the AR / resist. you simply cannot rely on dodging every time. and you cannot stack it well. and even though it might scales lineary and not logarythmic like AR and resist. the Dodge ranges you describe cannot be reached .... dex is just not good for stacking evasion.

    In Inferno you get bombarded with a ton of elemental dmg which cannot be dodged even if you had 100% dodge...

    i guess its good because every monk at 60 has around 700-1200 dex and thus ~24%-32% extra dodge a barbarian would never want to accumulate.but thats already it... i think making an effort to stack Dodge beyond using the Dodge Mantra. is a waste of affix-, and skill- slots; as far as bang for the buck is concerned.


  12. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    White pretty much nailed it for me.

    As for Keen Eye, it provides about 8-9% armor increase for me, far below Concussion's 20% less damage and the attack speed reduction. FoT has the advantage of knocking stuff back, - with enough attack speed, anything short of an elite pack becomes trivial as it stands permaknocked.

    Regardless, resistances are awesome due to HWE. Doesn't mean you should skip other stats, though - dex, vita, ares, xres. Other stuff such as health per spirit, life leech or life on hit are great as well, but you need a minimum base of resilience before seeing an advantage in those.
  13. Couscous

    Couscous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    How much armor do you have WhiteGiant? I think 2k dex is quite possible to reach, I'm sitting at 1.6k dex and vit and still have several slots that could use a heavy upgrade in both departments. Yesterday I sold a fist weapon that had 300+ dex for example, and the ones I'm using have much less. I expect in the future when people will have better gear to be something normal.
    Anyway I get your point and can't really disagree about the dodge mechanics. All in all one of the complaints about the monks (and melees in general) is that we need really good (and expensive) gear to do what others do much easily. I can see quite a few viable builds for monks, but most of em require a massive investment in gear, at least with the rarity and prices we have right now. Guess in a few months it will be different.
  14. Athenau

    Athenau IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    The point was to show that dodge scales better (so the "diminishing" returns argument is garbage).

    Comparing them 1:1 makes dex look worse,not better. In reality, you get a lot of base armor for free (i.e it doesn't cost an affix slot), so (up to a point) stacking strength/armor on top of that is less effective than putting the equivalent amount in dex. If you have 1000 armor just from gear, then stacking an additional 1000 points of armor puts you at 40% DR, which is a 66% increase in EHP.

    On the other hand if you put those points in dex, you get 25% DR and 30% dodge, or 47.5% mitigation which is a 90% increase in EHP. The more base armor you have, the more pronounced this effect.

    "Tons" being desecrated and plagued? Everything else is AFAICT, dodge-able.

    Armor and resists have the benefit of protecting you from getting one shotted. Once you have enough mitigation to avoid that, then the fact that dodge is probabilistic doesn't matter. So yes, this is a drawback of dodge, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that dex gives you a) more damage, and b) another EHP multiplier which is always more effective than sinking the equivalent number of points into fewer multipliers.

    This is wrong. Whether pumping dex is worthwhile depends on how much mitigation you have from other sources, and how much the indirect benefit of doing more damage improves your survivability.
  15. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    they are not exactly diminishing returns; as you said the increase in EHP rises like you'd excpect from a square function. but the range of dex you can accumulate is is very limited. so describing how you get greater and greater returns as you go towards the 8000 dex isnt very helpful...



    i disagree again: if you look out for the AR Affix you can often triple the base armor of any given item; or get AR from items which would otherwise have none. I could use the same argument for Dex ; every monk if tanky or not will have a considerable amount of dex @ 60 and thus a reasonable amount dodge ; and if it is about 1000 its quite a bit of bang for the buck.


    "Tons" being desecrated and plagued? Everything else is AFAICT, dodge-able.[/QUOTE]
    not to forget Firechains, Frozen and Arcane. certain baseline mob and boss attacks aswell.


    well i can hardly argue with that, but everyone plays on a budget. and thus cannot afford to shoot for the absolute perfect ratio with perfect rolls ; if that'd be the case iam sure barbarians would gladly go for 30-40 dodge aswell ...

    dont get me wrong if were to get free dodge i'd gladly take it but i dont think its worth the buck. sure i get dps out of dex too; but if i go for crit / IAS i get dps out of my weapon and dex. so dex is not what i would be looking for if i already had around ~1000. maybe that changes in time ( balance patches 'n stuff ).

    but as it is now with the special needs of OWE and generally better itemrequirements for monks to progress i dont see myself investing that much effort in equipping my monk, given that i will hit brickwalls @ act 3 and 4 anyways.

    much less could i farm the items i needed with a monk. well maybe i could but that would require ALOT of trading. and i found it more cozy to just level a DH and kite farm like everyone else who makes progress ...


  16. Hadrial

    Hadrial IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Exactly what I did, if end game requires you to kite/attack from ranged, why not be the best class that is designed for that?


  17. Couscous

    Couscous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    It's sad and says a lot of the state of the game that most monk discussions I've read end with the same sentence. At least we can transfer most gear between characters but still...everytime I try to level my demon hunter I feel just bad, like it's an obligation I shouldn't have to do. Guess I'll be one of those monks farming act 1 for a long time.


  18. Athenau

    Athenau IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Well, the other half of that demonstration was to show that at no point was dex worse than armor. So while I agree that the dex values in that table were impractically high, you are never worse off mitigation-wise by choosing dex.

    But that extra AR isn't free, which is my point. It takes an affix as well, so you have to choose between the benefits on top of stacking more armor on top of your base, or stacking dex. Ditto for the "you already have dex" argument, that dex isn't free. You had to consciously gear for it, which is an implicit acknowledgment that dex is pretty useful.

    +armor does seem to be available in larger quantities than individual +stats (roughly twice as much) so there is that. Then again, you get a lot of armor without even trying. For example, I'm sitting at ~2700 without level 60 gear (haven't gone shopping for inferno) and with all my items centered around IAS/dex/vit/resists.

    Firechains and Arcane can be dodged. Frozen can't, but the danger from frozen is not the damage, but the freeze, so armor and resists won't help you either. I've never seen a regular attack that coudn't be dodged, ditto for boss attacks. Basically the stuff that can't be dodged is limited to ground effects (molten, desecrated, plagued).

    Crit is a bad choice for monks. Monks don't get +crit damage from their skills, so you have to burn even more affixes to make crit useful. IAS is a great choice, but it only shows up on a few slots (rings, amulet, weapon) so it isn't competing with dex on the rest.
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  19. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    dont underestimate crit ; its true that the itembudget for crit and crit dmg is high but. but it scales better and better the more you have.

    also the last rune of Sweeping wind scales incredibly well with critchance ; even without high crit dmg multiplyer.
  20. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Every stats costs the same. It's just that some are more valuable for certain classes.

    Some people have shown criticism towards my idea of "diminishing returns" on dodge. My point was that since the monk had high dexterity (as it is needed to deal damage), focusing on resists, which we start with none of, ends up yielding more mitigation faster. Acquiring 50% more reduction than what you currently have through dodge would be more difficult than acquiring 50% more reduction through resists.


Share This Page