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Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Lucas S, Apr 1, 2012. | Replies: 70 | Views: 10593

  1. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Tooltip Description: Revenge has a 15% chance to become active each time you are hit. Inflict 220% weapon damage to all nearby enemies. You heal 6.0% of your maximum Life for each enemy hit.

    How It Works: The skill is grayed out until you get into a fight. At some point during the battle, when you get hit (15% chance), it activates. Then you can hit the hotkey to use it, and you make a kind of spinning AOE to monsters around you....the range seems pretty small (8 to 10 yards?).

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAn9V07GCg

    Skill Comparison: Comparable skills are Cleave and Rend.

    Cleave deals less damage (max 156% when runed) but generates 5 fury per attack. And it is available all the time, not like Revenge which is only available 1 in 7 times you are hit.

    Rend deals 210% damage (up to max of 271% when runed) and is on par damage-wise with Revenge. It cost 20 fury per attack but fury is easy to come by in most barb builts. And again Rend is available all the time as long as you have enough fury.

    Revenge is fury-neutral, i.e. doesn't cost any fury but doesn't generate any fury either, and you have to keep an eye on your UI all the time to check whether the skill has become active. The healing mechanism is mildly interesting, and I can see it being a potential lifesaver on rare unexpected occasions, but you can't exactly rely on it. Chances are that when your life is in danger, you would have chug a pot or a health globe or simply run/retreat rather than pray for Revenge to activate to save your bacon.

    Analysis: Seriously, why bother having Revenge taking up a skill slot? It is unpredictable, unreliable, high-maintenance (eyes on the UI all the time), unremarkable damage and limited range. Cleave is a better option all the time imo and Rend is also a superior choice for fast fury generating builds.

    So how to make Revenge more attractive? First, it should be auto-proc, which will make it immediately less annoying. Second, damage has to go up to at least 250% unruned and maybe slightly expanded range. Otherwise, I don't think this skill will be seriously considered in most barb builds.
     
  2. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    How interesting! I have a very different assessment of Revenge. It is by far the most overpowered Barbarian skill; it deals a high strike size on one target, it scales on multiple target, it leeches scaling amounts of health, and its runestones are strong. I'm not building a single Barbarian without Revenge, in its current state.


    In fact, a while ago on another location on the internets I had almost the same discussion, so I'm well-prepared this time!


    Which specific point do you want to discuss first? I have an answer for every single one.


    Edit: you know what, I'll start compiling an answer right away instead!
     
  3. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    You know you are in trouble when Superstate starts "compiling an answer" against you! :) Looking forward to your insights mate :thumbup:
     
  4. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    A wild Superstate appears!
    He sees your question and starts compiling an answer.
    Reading the answer crits you for 9001 damage.
    Your Intelligence is raised by 100, but you die of exhaustion.
    Want to post again? (Y/N)
     
  5. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

     
  6. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    He means that it has the highest single hit damage out of all Barb skills and that it's proc chance and life steal scales with more targets.

    In the beta, Revenge isn't needed, but I bet that many Barbs will bring it with them when they reach Nightmare, especially in HC.
     
  7. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Alright! I'm going to start with a few bullet points about why I think Revenge is, actually, overpowered at the moment (in PvM), and then continue on to discuss my statements in detail. I'll take your concluding analysis of Revenge and counter it with a few of my thoughts Lucas S!

    - It is unpredictable only after a very low amount of swings, as you will see. Provocation greatly reduces the unpredictability, as you will also see.

    - The "eyes on the ui" issue is alleviated with a macro keyboard. I tried a Revenge toggle on/off button, which when it's toggled on will automatically cast Revenge. Macroing Revenge is very much a PvM-only thing to do, further discussions later.

    - that you find the damage to be unremarkable is quite interesting. In terms of one-time damage it is just behind Earthquake, Dread Bombs and Battering Ram (and possibly Ancients if you want to count them as a one-time cast), 220% weapon damage is not a laughable sum of damage.

    - Revenge isn't a substitute to Cleave really (or any primary generator). It stands on its own as an extra AoE damage / survivability skill in your build (buff skill with BSC).

    - And finally, you seem to have overlooked that by the time you find yourself at low health, Revenge is likely to already have procced (depending on how squishy you are). As such, you don't need to fish for procs at the actual time of being close to dying in the same sense that you make it out to be.



    Here are some extra bullet points that I'll probably include later on as well!

    - Revenge isn't (always) on generator cooldown. It can be cast at the same time as another primary generator. However, it does invoke spender cooldown, and is limited by it.

    - Revenge is one of the few skills that has an exponentially increasing effect when including number of targets. Most AoE skills has a linear return, ie hit more targets equals a linearly increasing amount of damage dealt. This is not the case for Revenge, where the combination of more targets also equals to an increased amount of Revenges cast, on top of the increased amount of damage. Since Revenge has a native leech (that scales with targets), its usefulness is increased exponentially both for defense and offense.


    Alright, now on to more detail!

    Predictability of Revenge Procs, and Provocation


    I should add that I personally only find two runestones really useful for Revenge. One of them is Provocation, the other is Best Served Cold. In actual gameplay I find that Provocation blows them all away but BSC has its own niche it's useful for. More about that later.


    So, some of you guys might have learned that I enjoy a good graph every now and then, here's one detailing the differencies in proc rates of Revenge and Provocation!

    [​IMG]


    Each of these rows represents one incoming successful swing (dodges are NOT included, however, blocks are). The interesting thing here is to notice how quickly the graph reaches certain probabilities. In other words, choose a y-value and have a look at how much later the blue line reaches that same y.


    Now, as you look at this graph and its corresponding rows of probabilities, try to imagine Inferno gameplay; packs of monsters swarm you, they aren't oneshotted by cleave and so on, and you'll therefore get a lot of incoming swings FAST. Each of those swings then pull the probability of Revenge proccing one row further down.

    Secondly, let's assume you have a macro as I do, and as such, Revenge is cast a few milliseconds after proccing. Depending on which limit you want to choose, you'll see that it merely takes two incoming swings with Provocation in order for it to be more likely to have procced than not to (51%). The same amount of swings is 5 for native (~56%).

    Now use for example 90% certainty Revenge has procced; the required number for p prov >= 0,9 is n = 7 (~92% certainty). The same number of attacks required is 15 swings for native (~91%).

    Ie, the increase of 15% proc rate to 30% is slightly more than doubling the amount of Revenges proccing.




    Since Revenge starts to proc so very much and we cast it immediately upon proccing, and it leeches absolutely humongous numbers of health in big monster packs, you can solve for that the incoming damage has to be above a certain of damage in %health in order to actually kill you, on average. Revenge is so goddamned powerful it can easily make you immortal, and its defensive power increases (exponentially too, in fact) as you increase Armor and Health. And using Provocation as the runestone of choice slightly more than doubles its efficiency (with a macro, as stated). I could find the number for certain limits of p, but it requires that you choose two variables: numbers of monsters, and at what certainty revenge procs. There are more elegant ways to solve it, I'm sure, however I never was very good at math.



    Runestone choices


    So, I first stated that Revenge has strong runestones, and later went on to say that Provocation is the strongest, and BSC has a niche that could surpass Provocation. The reason why I dislike the other choices is because Provocation and BSC together fit the two (in my opinion) really important gains to be had; IE either more defense or more offense. Provocation happens to provide both excellent defense and offense, whereas BSC has only offense tied to it. But I also said that BSC has a niche, so what is it? When is it better than Provocation?

    Provocation requires a free spender cooldown. If you're using Whirlwind, you don't have one readily available at all times. In order for Provocation to be as powerful as I'm telling you it is, it has to be in a macro-friendly build. If you're using Whirlwind, Provocation essentially just wastes extra procs that aren't spent while whirlwing, whereas BSC provides you a chunk of damage (oh, BSC is very likely to have a very high uptime versus many monsters). So, in scenarios where you want to use Whirlwind on a big group of monsters, BSC is in my opinion the best offensive choice. Hardcore WW Barbarians could still appreciate the need for Provocation even if using Whirlwind, just to have a much higher chance to have a high leech readily available once the whirl is finished, in case of danger.

    What about the other ones?

    - Vengeance is Mine is a good choice for Barbarians who don't intend to macro Revenge, both for HC and SC. A macroed Provocation still leeches more than macroed Vengeance of Mine, however it still has the fury yield. This could be especially good for perma-wrath Barbarians needing that little extra fury gain.

    -Retribution is suffering from the same issues as Vengeance is Mine. A macroed Provocation still yields more sheer damage (and leech) than a macroed Retribution due to the increased amount of Provocation procs. If you're looking for pure offense, go for BSC instead.

    - Grudge is very much situational and up to player opinion. In terms of Revenge efficiency it's obviously counter-effective due to less incoming swings.



    I have a short demonstration video as well for anyone interested. I especially recommend the AoE portion. Remember that the proc rate is base, so imagine a much higher proc rate, as well as monsters having higher attack speeds.

    [video=youtube;Oc_YfPOGEI8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc_YfPOGEI8[/video]


    Macro or not?


    I'm one of those guys who used to think that people macro-ing stuff generally are less well-endowed in the skill department. I still think so, however, the implications of Provocation means that you'll have huge chunks of procs in short intervals of time, and in order to use as many as possible of them, a macro is honestly a good way to go.

    It is important it's a toggling macro however. You don't want to cast Revenge while running towards a group of archers, since the Revenge cast makes you stop mid-run. This is an element of playstyle you might need to practice to get it right.

    As previously stated, Revenge is at its best in PvM due to the high number of incoming swings in monster packs, and it being macro-friendly in the right circumstances (no WW etc). For PvP Revenge is still a good ability, however the usage for macros is not as essential (in my opinion).

    Edit: We'll be limited in our macro-ing as it's a bannable offense, if D3 uses the same stance as WoW! Gives Revenge a skill-cap really!


    Closing words


    Revenge is probably at its most powerful when cheesing the leech in more difficult content than you should be able to survive. The reason I think it's overpowered isn't the effects themselves (the leech, the damage), it is the fact that the number of Revenges scales with the numbers of targets, which causes the effects to become so very strong. If Revenge isn't nerfed, I can tell you right now that I'm suspecting Provocation will single-handedly carry many-a-Barbarians through Inferno.



    :thankyou:

    Thank you.


    I probably forgot something, likely to edit something here and there.


     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  8. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Jesus! I'll read that more than once I suspect. Macroing is an interesting option, haven't really explored that for D3.
     
  9. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Are there programs that allow you to macro some keys, without being detected as cheats?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  10. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    I'm using the built-in support for my keyboard at least. Come to think of it, I don't think macroing Revenge in the way I'm doing it is allowed. I might have to use multiple inputs on keystrokes instead. IIRC Blizzard's stance is something similar to "one keystroke equals to one action". I'll have to think about that! :scratchchin:


     
  11. Rokel

    Rokel IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    The moment I realised how overpowered Revenge is was when I first saw it proc'd from ranged attacks / spells. I had always assumed for balance it was a melee only skill.

    I don't generally play melee characters in games as I don't like being picked off from ranged enemies. I see this as a great way to counter that sort of incoming damage.

    example : You're surrounded by mid level melee mobs taking hard spell damage over the top from a group of ranged casters - no problem snuggle up to those mobs and you're getting through them quicker and healing yourself. Win -Win

    Provocation is the obviously overpowered rune choice, I can see it getting toned down a bit in the first few weeks of live if not before. I would use this skill in any and all Barb builds.
     
  12. starrise

    starrise IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    I can't imagine they'll never add a cooldown. Something on the order of 5 seconds might restore balance. Still, it will be a very useful skill.
     
  13. Creon

    Creon IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    As one of those looking to make a Whirlwind build, I still have every intention of getting Revenge. The real question for me is: Provocation, Best Served Cold, or Vengeance is Mine? BSC provides the best bonus to offense for Whirlwind, Vengeance is Mine is a great "oh crap!" button to save for when low on health, and Provocation basically makes Revenge always available in a fight.
     
  14. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Any balance assessment that doesn't factor in that you must be hit 7 times (on average) to use this skill once is kinda missing the point, IMO. Consider how much faster you can deal out dmg with nearly every other Barb skill and "overpowered" claims become moot. 2 Cleaves, for example, do more dmg than Revenge, and can be done at all times. It's cool, but by no means a must have. (Doubling the proc rate with that rune might be a bit much, though.)
     
  15. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Yeah I still think that given its proc rate, the dps numbers of Revenge is nothing shout about. The real attraction is the self-heal, which may become invaluable in Inferno. Have to go work on my build again!
     
  16. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Yes, the heal is amazing, but the DPS, while nice, is clearly minimal.
     
  17. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Some more thoughts on this skill, particularly Superstate's analysis.

    1. If there is no safe way to macro Revenge, the utility of the skill in reality will inevitably be less than what it seems on paper. I don't think any reasonable player can cannot react quick enough every single time the skill activates in order to fully maximize the utility of the skill.

    2. I can understand the heal to be amazing in a fight with a pack of champions/rares... your bulb will fill up pretty darn quick (pack of 5 = 30% heal). But in a boss fight (assuming no minions), the heal becomes less obvious, just a 6% heal per proc. Not exactly overpowered in that sense.
     
  18. Creon

    Creon IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    I never considered Revenge a must-have for the damage component. I'm going to test it with Provocation, Best Served Cold, and Vengeance is Mine to see which one provides the best combination of healing and offensive buff (+10% crit). That +10% critical strike rate can be maintained constantly with a 15% proc rate, which is a very nice addition to any build. I think I would rather have +10% crit all of the time than Wrath of the Berserker 15% of the time.
     
  19. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Superstate was talking about one hit damage, not DPS. The DPS of Revenge is clearly not the best.

    It's OPness comes from the fact, that against multiple enemies its an amazing and somewhat reliable heal, it still deals good damage, doesn't cost anything and doesn't have a cooldown.


     
  20. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

    Another advantage of Revenge is the fact that you can proc it multiple times in a short time. I don't think something like Rend stacks, so you don't get the full benefit of two Rends if you use one before the other has spent its full 3 seconds.

    Revenge also deals its damage straight-up which is usually more valuable, and hits enemies all around you, unlike Cleave which would take multiple hits to accomplish the same effect.

    That was a very good writeup by Superstate, but I'm still a fan of as much reliability as possible, although I'll probably take Revenge for a spin now and again ^^. I think it's a good skill - just not my style.
     

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