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This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jmervyn, Feb 15, 2013. | Replies: 234 | Views: 19083

  1. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Ok, so I reversed my own recent decision and am on my first Canadian whiskey (it's Thursday) under the guidance of my physician, Kris. The title is from a line from a recent catchy and "militaristic" music video, spoilered.



    Also, my standard disclaimer. The points of view I espouse on this forum and particularly in this thread in no way represent American policy, stances from the U.S. Department of Defense, positions of the European Council, fan dances of Mata Hari, or the squat that my dog Shredder takes.

    TOPIC. There is an undeclared cold war by the Chinese against the West, and America in particular.

    I had read some details about this initially on Wired's "Danger Room" linking the Chinese to the 2003 blackout, where I had thought it was simply a cover-up by Microsoft regarding the electrical grid's SCADA systems being partially compromised by the Blaster worm. I recall years ago arguing with someone on those Computerworld forums that NOBODY would be stupid enough to make SCADA systems directly accessible from the Internet, and even if they did, they would never be so stupid as to have those same systems running Microsoft products. Obviously I was quite wrong, and I overestimated American wisdom in a gigantic fashion.

    I also was reading a nice bit of dross by Dick Morris (yes, the toe-sucker) called Screwed, where he spends at least one chapter discussing China's programs and, as it happens, refers to the same attacks against the American electrical grid as more than just conjecture. Richard Clarke is cited as a primary source, and while I have more than a few sneers to cast in Clarke's direction (he forecast an "electronic Pearl Harbor" and the result was 9/11, which he subsequently claimed to have forseen despite sharing potential culpability), I started to wonder if this wasn't just a matter of broken clocks being right twice a day.

    The more I looked, the more I realized that we currently are experiencing something several magnitudes greater than the French electronic war of a couple of decades ago. China really IS attacking us outright, and not just to steal trade secrets or silence dissidents.

    I'm going to have to resume this later; I just had a marathon phone-call and the fambly wants me to eat and do errands.
  2. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    and I thought this would be about the underground bomb test in N. Korea

    :D

    Sorry Jmervyn but this is not war.
  3. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I wouldn't call that a war, but scheming and sabotage, perhaps a bit of terrorism, together with criminal activity. In short, it's businessas usual, with its extent matching the opportunities given through the internet. It could be called war in a metaphorical way, however.
  4. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Bob, there's multiple ways to fight a war.

    I'm very busy this morning. Read between the lines if you like.
  5. korialstraz

    korialstraz IncGamers Site Pal

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    I haven't checked the vid, link or anything, but I agree with jmerv on one point. Fighting a war with weapons, bombs and whatnot isn't the only way to wage war.
  6. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    Indeed you can also wage war by searching air passengers and limiting what fluids they are allowed to take onto the plane.
  7. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    If you had used the phrase "groping grandmothers", I would have said you won the thread.



    EDIT: Bonus, I just read Jmerv's link, and it said US and China are "frenemies". Should have put that darling on the first page, TIME magazine.
  8. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    That's kind of the direction I'd like to go in with the thread, along with why that's actually a fairly scary prospect, PLUS what America's new-found isolationism might result in.

    Like I said, I may not get to the brass tacks for a while yet.
  9. Jocular

    Jocular IncGamers Member

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    I'm interested to see how Chinese-American relations go forth with both of them having to deal with North Korea becoming ever more hostile. Neither country can invade North Korea without huge consequences...nor does anyone truly believe the North would ever fire a nuke. It's a mess.
  10. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Meh


    Kind of like Taiwan, etc
  11. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Not sure if any nations with nukes will ever mess with each other above a certain threshold, thanks to good ol' mutually assured destruction. I do believe, though, that a SHTF moment is inevitable, in one form or another. I'll bet jmervn's got a chicken strapped to the chopping block out back as we speak. Probably has a hatchet pressed real hard to its neck, ready to employ those SHTF skills.
  12. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    [​IMG]

    Meh I'm an Optimist.

    :D

    They made me play "duck and cover" in school as a kid but I got over it.
  13. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Um, I have had Chris Dormer and Ali in my morning commute in the last week or two.

    and me in a new car with great mileage!

    :D
  14. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Wars can be limited, cold, and even non-violent. For those who haven't heard, "War is the continuation of Politik by other means" - Clausewitz

    Also worth knowing for the neophyte, though not always germane to the discussion: The Principles of War - MOOSEMUSS

    • Mass
    • Offensive
    • Objective
    • Surprise
    • Economy of force
    • Maneuver
    • Unity of command
    • Security
    • Simplicity

    Our primary enemy that I'm thinking about here is China. There's a number of other nations who could be considered 'at war' with America, such as Iraq, Pakistan, North Korea and maybe even Saudi Arabia, but none of those are serious geopolitical threats even though North Korea is still officially fighting us. I'm not including the possibility of one of them conducting a nuclear strike, or worse yet, an EMP attack, because despite the potentially devastating result these would still be one-off attacks rather than the sustained geopolitical conflict that I wanted to discuss.

    Right now, one of the main attacks against the U.S. is remarkably wise - the use of our own consumer greed against us. China continues to manipulate their currency in order to prevent market economics's results from hurting them. If the renminbi was allowed to appreciate, Chinese cost of goods goes way up, and they become less competitive against other products. What boggled my mind was that apparently we continue to give China foreign aid - $10M according to one Romney speech - that we're borrowing FROM them!

    Secretary of State Kerry (puke) claims that we must continue our program of foreign aid, but what does it actually achieve? Many of the countries that receive it are certainly no friends of America. I hardly think what amounts to outright bribery of these countries' leadership, and in pretty much no way benevolence to the foreign populace, is a smart investment.

    The 'hot' part of the Chinese-American war seems centered around commercial espionage. While there are incidents such as the hostile downing of our EP-3 plane - which we apologized for! - within the Chinese interpretation of their "Law of the Sea Treaty" controlled zone, most of these incidents are surreptitious. It seems like the Chinese have been conducting an all-out blitzkrieg against American IT interests, from infiltration, to theft, to attempts to sabotage SCADA systems and 'softening up' America's power grid.
    Well, I only have two chickens left - predation is a biatch - but we'll be buying 6 more in April or so. Have to buy them in multiples of 6, because New York. We don't eat them (yet).

    As for SHTF skills, I'm not as butch as you might imagine. I may or may not have killed a 'coon that ate a bunch of my chickens, and I may or may not have tried to skin it, but if I had skinned it I definitely screwed up attempting to tan the hide.
  15. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Nope.
    War is hell.
    This is propaganda.
  16. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    It's not hell *YET*, unless you're on the receiving end. Plus, there's nobody that I'm aware of hitting any beaches in the traditional fashion.

    Still, it qualifies as war under Clausewitz' definition, which is why I provided it. It sure as heck isn't propaganda; I don't believe the Chinese really care what Americans think as long as they stay ignorant.
  17. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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  18. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    [h=1]BREAKING: North Korea Launches Short-Range Missiles on East Coast[/h]

    North Korea has fired two short-range tactical missiles off its East coast
    SEOUL – North Korea has tested short-range missiles in the Sea of Japan (known as the East Sea in Korea), in an apparent attempt to counter-act joint U.S.-South Korean military exercises, South Korean news agency Yonhap reported.
    “North Korea test-launched a short-range missile in the East Sea [Sea of Japan] this afternoon, amid the ongoing security crisis on the Korean peninsula following Pyongyang’s third nuclear test last month,†Yonhap news said.
    The source, Yonhap said, was a military source within the South Korean government. The North Korean military launched two KN-02 short-range missiles into international waters, the report said.


    http://www.nknews.org/2013/03/breaking-north-korea-launches-short-range-missiles-on-east-coast/
  19. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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  20. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Why is it that fascist gov't always seems to fall into the same pattern? [/rhetorical]

    Anyhow, I'm far more interested in what their intentions are regarding <us>, as in the West. One of the books I'm reading (slowly) is a somewhat obscure military treatise by a couple of their Command & Staff College instructors (equivalent).

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