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The need for map editor

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Clavdivs, Aug 15, 2013. | Replies: 17 | Views: 1521

  1. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, fully aware that posts like this were made a number of times before, have decided to re-post an article made by a divine long-time collaborator on past mods. Divine being declares that this article is well put, and deserve a viewing on this forum also:

    [HR][/HR]
    Original article made by Snakefist at official forums:

    [Author is a game dev/modder for over 20 years]

    When Blizzard made SC2, and released powerful and complex Galaxy editor - which is constantly becoming more powerful, also enabling bnet2 features for custom games, campaigns etc., my first thought was 'they are creating a world-builder, all those perfect and near-perfect custom made maps are going to have a creating-kit which is very powerful, and (fairly) easy to use, supported by Blizzard and sometimes even sold by Blizzard.'

    It took a while to bear any actual fruits, but here it is now:


    A WoW-like game, put into a SC universe (sic), 8 classes, MMO, focusing on PvE and 3vs3 PvP - read at the site yourselves!

    How much such a project cost? 80,000$ on KickStarter.

    People would probably do it for free, but getting *some* money is the motivation for devs - after initial fun and hype and praise, it gradually becomes a burden, and becomes a second job (or first). I've seen many great projects fail because lack of motivation.

    How much we (the community) payed for the game? Close to 1 billion dollars. There are, supposedly, over 12 million of us. 80,000$ is nothing compared to fanbase - some people gave thousands dollars for items.

    - Would I personally fund a project I find promising with, say, 10$?
    - Yes.

    - Would 8,000 others do?
    - 100% sure that they would.

    Instead of pleading for SF mode, someone could develop it already, Instead of pleading for no-AH, someone could develop it already. Instead of waiting for promised PvP, it could be done by someone long time ago, in many tastes. So could be other things people are asking for.

    All what is needed is the public version of the editor.
    [HR][/HR]
    The text below is a reply to a usual example of what misuse of editor would be - a map full of monsters with used for abuse of exp gained and AH. As it is also written well, The God decided to re-post it too.


    [HR][/HR]
    I don't know how much experience with modding/developing you have, but AH can be changed to be mod-specific. Both the AH and map-editor would have to be heavily modified, no doubt about that. A work may take few months, maybe more. But more importantly, it's doable. There are 6 different AH's at the moment. There is an editor which probably needs to be modified, but it does exist. It requires work, but it's doable.

    As for the loot, from my own experience, both loot tables and drop probabilities, as well as affix values and other item-related stuff were editable in d2, so I have a reason to think that those are already part of editor developers use.

    I have no illusion of user-created content - to put it bluntly, 90% of it is a crap. 1% is a pearl. Rest is good, but not perfect - still it is liked by some people. We are not talking about that 90% which has very little chance to be played at all (but yet have high chances to be created). We are talking about 1%, compare it to DOTA in WC3 if you like.

    ----------
    Chess 2.0
    ----------

    An example of noob-developed content

    1. Queen should be more powerful! Queen should be able to jump over figures, as the Knight does!
    ...realizing that White Queen can take Black in the first move...

    2. Queen cannot take another Queen!
    ...considers option where Queen also can use Knight movement pattern, with various conclusions..
    ...considers the possibility that Queen is taken after all...

    3. There are various ways to resurrect Queen, like replacing other figures with it
    ...goes on with ruining the game


    There is, of course, no comparison between elaborate and perfect game like chess and D3 (though adding AH to the chess seems promising).

    Point being, map as you described is destined to be made, but it wouldn't be part of regular game - just as the mod mentioned isn't part of SC2 standard games.

    We are talking about endless possibilities, like:
    - Open world
    - Every mini-game suggested, like endless dungeon and waves of creeps
    - Wide variety of random side quests
    - Better balance of skills
    - Better itemization - fact that Blizzard is working on it doesn't guarantee success
    - Better AH (yup, many people found it lacking, or would accept another take on it)
    - Better multiplayer
    - Better endgame
    - More variety of virtually everything - such as monster design, graphical improvement (imagine DarkD3 with the ability to change more than just texture/lighting locally)

    If we take a look, for example, Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim mods, some of user-created content is at least on the level with Bethsheda's work. Most importantly, many modders collaborate and allow including of their works in more comprehensive mods.

    Many games today have mods, and powerful editors included in the game was Blizzard's trademark - with WoW and D2/3 as exceptions. While it is understandable for WoW, absence of editor from D3 is just... weird.

    [HR][/HR]
    The God will reply to all comments for this article as if it was his own. The God has original author's permission to do so.
  2. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani IncGamers Member

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    When a game gets old or just comes out bad mods keep it alive.

    D3 doesn't have them but it should. I agree completely.
  3. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    They won't do it because console.
  4. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Bethesdas games are on console too.

    They wont do it because 'Blizzard is always right'. How could you mere mortals even think you could make something more perfect than the creations of Blizzard? Blasphemy.

    Obviously not all of BLizzard that thinks tis way, considering SC2, but in D3 development, there seemed to be a lot of 'we know what is best for you, options are bad mkay'.
    I actually like developers who are confident they are right, and have a clear vision they follow. It is their game to make, not ours.
    The same attitude sucks though, when you do not have a clear vision, but still think you are right.

    Anyway, mods for D3 would be interesting. I doubt I would ever play any - nor did I for D2, TL2 etc. - but it can surely increase longevity for a lot of people.
  5. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    They definitely had that attitude pre-release, when they responded to the "color controversy" by making fun of everyone who said the game looked too bright by creating whimseyshire. So, they got feedback and made fun of it...

    Now, 15 months later, Jay Wilson fired from the project and others reassigned, I think they are a little less cocky. The Whimseyshire debacle is still fresh in mind though.
  6. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    The God agrees that developers should have their pride. When The God participated in most successful divine mod up to date (Snake was leader, and we used different names then), Snake acted pretty reserved and ruled forums with an iron fist - he used to read each post carefully, but not participated in meaningless debates, nor included or excluded anything because plebeian request.

    However, the strict but wise dictatorship was in order, because the illustrious leader didn't make mistakes - balance, the most important quality of mod in question was near perfect, and problems were dealt with quickly and orderly.

    How to act when your product is fundamentally flawed, majority of input is bad and the player base is shrinking on a daily level? The company lost divine thrust, and so is the dev team. Virtually all measures made so far were percepted by the divine being as band-aids, and they proved as such.

    The editor request, however, will not be a band-aid. It is a perfectly normal and legitimate, and can even help the dev team to keep their pride.

    EDIT: The God finds whole Chess 2.0 idea, along with worthy AH addition, hilarious. And sadly, similar to some things which happened in real life
  7. Dogbert

    Dogbert IncGamers Member

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    modding for d3? you can't mod this game. it's even online play only.
    if they wanted mods like we had in d2 they wouldn't make it impossible to mod. sorry :(

    but i would also like to see a map editor. even tl2 has one and it's great. the chances of ever getting one though...
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  8. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    Divine being agrees that modding in the way of modifying D2patch.mpq is indeed impossible, but can be done with official support of editor, similar to SC2. The God is beyond optimism and pessimism too, and doubts we will ever get one - which is not a reason to abandon the idea as such
  9. Noodle

    Noodle <img src="http://forums.diabloii.net/images/pal.gi

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    What an obnoxious posting style.
  10. Dogbert

    Dogbert IncGamers Member

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    Hey you are talking to Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. When talking to a god one must tread carefully. :)
  11. Noodle

    Noodle <img src="http://forums.diabloii.net/images/pal.gi

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    Oh, I treat God with reverence and respect.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
  12. koko

    koko IncGamers Site Pal

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    Anyway, some gods (particularly antique ones) are obnoxious.
  13. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    Some are - thinking of Caligula, my nephew, are you not? He is more than obnoxious! But today, sense of humour is a gift not possessed by everyone, and the way of presenting thoughts through interesting role-playing writing style is often unappreciated...
  14. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    The gods have not often been known for having a good sense of humor. They have generally been better at smiting than jokes. I say the gods stick with what they know. Let the smiting commence!
  15. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have always been known as a benevolent tyrant! But forums today do resemble the forum of my time - patricians have to establish themselves as a reliable and knowledgeable subjects to be accepted as a worthy addition, get to known by deeds/posts, etc.

    The God is not worried about this, as (of course) divine being in its infinite wisdom understand much about how things work, in which modding experience helps a lot (also accompanied with ancient age). So, The God restrains of highly controversial topics, wordly smiting the noobs and making fun-only posts. It will come in time. Right now, divine being just enjoys mostly constructive discussions and utilizes a fun 'reward' worthy posts made by others (never reduces bad ones, Clavdivs is a benevolent god).

    As for humourous content, this God is actually enjoying a good humour and both appreciated and utilized it, even while being mortal. Currently, The God refrains of making post/replays that are just funny (or mocking) - it will come in time.
    [HR][/HR]
    But we are distracted from map-editor unlikely boon - so here's another part of Snake's epic struggle with official forum trolls (he's way to intelligent to stick for official forums, his brain is going to burn). Until brain burn actually happens, lets use his experiences and viewpoints, related to map editor theme


    [HR][/HR]Originally posted by Snakefist, on official forum, met with about zero understanding (but with some approval) - take 3 on explaining what are custom games at all and why and how they can be made in D3:

    The user-made content would almost certainly not be integral part of the game. The current situation is as follows (I've talked about before, but here's again):
    1. Maps are hand-drawn, monsters are manually chosen and put into respective location
    2. Variations of the same map are made through manual editing of maps - therefore it took so long for devs to differ inferno monster density
    3. Bottomline, maps are not random at all and cannot be made random, except through manual changing

    While this is a flaw (unless quick and painless fix of replacing monster type with another - which I believe is going to happen), it could also be a trigger for user-made content.

    As BNET2.0 has records of individual maps in SC2, there is no problem in creating some kind of game lobby, where player choses whether he wants standard (Blizzard) game, some kind of matching PvP system (custom or official or both), or entirely user-created (or modded) content.

    Characters for PvP - easiest to make is probably as pre-geared characters (which progress through winning or losing, whatever - not going into this far away), but have no access to AH/RMAH, for start or for user-created content.

    Access to AH would need to be made by Blizzard, and AHs for created content would be separated from 'normal'.

    Example great-scale mod:
    -------------------------
    Say that group of people has different vision of Inferno. Say they see it as a hellish place which is pretty much open - has no Acts and consists of many maps connected into vast space. Over that places are, say, villains palaces and vast dungeons and lairs, probably endless dungeon as well and wave-of-monsters type one, accessible through waypoints. Monsters types and destiny varies as creators see fit - increasing near and at villain lairs and decreasing over wastelands, which in turn has a much greater chance of random encounters. Random encounters ("Lord of Terror roams the land") happen from time to time. Skills are rebalanced, and Paragons turned in something different. Affixes are tuned and modified, and so are certain drops (main bosses and special encounters). Villains are tough and so are their minions and present a real challenge even for best characters - lower ones cannot expect to beat them easily, but perhaps can in multiplayer.

    Now, all above cannot possibly be just added to normal game and expected to work. But, it is addition many people are likely to play. If the number is big enough, Blizzard checks the mod and gives it approval and an AH (not talking about RMAH, way too early)

    So, this is a custom-type game, selectable from lobby, but taken care of through bnet. Exactly as SC2 mod from first post.

    More people are happy, since some of the players who left game returns for modded content - also are more likely to play original game, instead just use the Recycle Bin). Game population is not decreasing anymore - remember WC3 and DOTA? Insane number of players used to buy the game, log in and play a custom map.

    Merchandise with D3 sells more, because player base is bigger. Blizzard of course knows this, but someone always needs reminding of the fact that RMAH and initial number of copies is NOT only source of income, having D3 logo on merchandise is very important money generator, and so are advertisements.

    But, I repeat, not EVERYONE who makes a 10 yard circle map gets it included in normal game and AH - mods are just that, a modified or created content. Blizzard may decide to give each a AH, even RMAH, but it is currently far beside point.

    What IS the point, is possibility to have an option and possibility to create content, which has its own characters, records levels and items and perhaps has auto-matching system - like the SC2 has.

    Not satisfied with 'Brawling'? Who is? Entering someone's game and asking him for reward-less fight? Ok, my prediction is that in a week after map-editor is released, there will be several PvP mods, with different variants. Select custom game, select "PvP Deathmatch X" and wait for desired number of persons to join. Or, have a auto-matching system. Pre-designed or random rewards. Endless possibilities...

    Why it wasn't implemented yet by Blizzard? Well, suffice to say it isn't. But it can be, as well with a number of other improvements/modifications/balances, if the map editor is released. AH is beyond the point - as many other things, playing modded content is optional, and hurts nobody.

    One other thing - let's stop pretending that all players are 'community' and play just multiplayer all day long. Multiplayer part is not yet made good enough, and even if it was, a great deal of people plays alone, at least part of the time...

    [HR][/HR]
    So, Part 3 of an attempt to explain importance and possibilities of mods, in bnet2.0 mode-friendly environment, actually created for things like this...

    The God allows permanent discussion of this topic!
  16. koko

    koko IncGamers Site Pal

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    All this modding would be pretty cool.
  17. Dogbert

    Dogbert IncGamers Member

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    But these are all ideas manifested by a God. In this case Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. How are we mortals supposed to be able to accomplish anything like this?
  18. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs IncGamers Member

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    This particular idea, is coming from a mortal mind! All three quotes are original posts made by a long time collaborator of The God, mortal named 'Snakefist' (currently - he was carrying different name then) on official forums. The God has consent to defend them as his own, but he is not an original author.

    Original thread is semi-full of rubbish made by plebeian-scum who expect that modded content will be available directly (???) connected to the game, and imaging themselves while 'creating 10 yards map full of elites' and then, Clavdivs supposes, ruling the world - how many elites can be in 10 yards circle map? - 'As many as The God wants, but not so much for mortals, monsters do have collision size, see' - The God doesn't want to answer to this type of questions, so he doesn't go to official forums...

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