Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

The Myth of Build Variety

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by JEB90, May 26, 2012. | Replies: 59 | Views: 8965

  1. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    98
    I'm an old (in every sense of the world) barb forum poster from back in the D2 days. I've been looking forward to D3 for years, and I'm really trying to like this game, but I can't seem to get past the "trust us we know what's better for you" approach Blizzard took in this game. All the drivel they keep spewing about how the new skill system is great and unlocks virtually unlimited possibilities is a prime example. So I can respec whenever I want. Wonderful. Unless I want to do it mid-fight. Or say, switch skills during a mf run. Hmmm...

    More to the point, I was thinking back to some of my various barb builds and comparing them to the current system. In D3, you can use 6 skills and have 3 active passive skills (if you pardon the oxymoron) without respecing. On the face of it, that seems ok--until you think about D2. When I came back recently to get ready for D3, my last pvm/ubers ww/frenzy barb used frenzy, ww, battle command, shout, and battle orders on a regular basis--only 5 skills. So far edge to D3. He had access to--and used 3 others quite often, too, though: berserk, howl, and leap attack. If he was a pure mf barb, he would have used find item, too. At the same time, my barb was running 5 passives. All without respecing--and all with various degrees of strength depending upon my preferences.

    When you think about pvp builds, the difference becomes even more pronounced. The latest bvc would regularly use ww, berserk, concentrate, leap, bc, bo, shout, and the 5 passives--not to mention teleport. A more specialized build like the jav barb I played back in the day used all of those plus double throw and normal throw--and ran with a second mastery for 6 passives.

    Ah but what about instant respec? Again, you didn't need the gimmick of non-instant, instant respec since you had access to so many skills with the push of a button. If you really wanted to respec, though, getting a respec token AFTER you used up your 3 free resepcs was hardly onerous. Gimping the game interface in the name of "you really don't want to have to press all those buttons so we'll save you the trouble" to protect us from ourselves is a joke.

    Sure, sure--I'm just a bitter D2 player nostalgically longing for the old days. Ask yourself, though, why you are here reading this post rather than playing. When D2 first came out, I only bothered to read the forums when I was at work--taking fully authorized breaks, of course. In all honesty, D2 sucked me in immediately. D3? Not so much. It's very easy to tell that the people who made the game are a completely different crew with wildly different priorities. So far, from what I've seen, the skill build approach is just one example of how those priorities led to a lesser game.
  2. zapotek

    zapotek IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    102
    Some valid points but the skill system is not beyond repair. I think in the future they very well might add a couple of more hotkeys, at least that is something I hope. Unless they decide to console port and that is the reason for not allowing more hotkeys(the controller).

    I think every expansion that comes will probably add some new skills to the classes which probably means there will be a need for some extra buttons. Sure doesn't help much in the current situation but meh, one can hope right?

    In my perfect world, they would add weapon switch bindable key and two more skill buttons. The barb class really needs it especially, considering how certain things like Warcry is a must. There isn't so much room for freedom as I would like atm.
  3. BryanM

    BryanM IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    One thing people don't get about the Pandora's story is, that it's a box filled of evil. Hope was in the box because it belongs there. In the box full of evil.

    To be honest, everything's pretty well over-saturated as it is.


  4. betazoid

    betazoid IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    Choices, so many choices.. I do change spec or some passives at least when farm or doing new content. PVP will be the same. D3 has so many builds more than D2 ever did and imo it is not how many buttons you have to push. Gameplay at the moment feels great, not too many or not too few keys to push.
  5. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    98
    If you are going to try to sound smart by citing mythology, it helps not to misinterpret the myth. Hope was the gift that made the evils bearable.

    You're right. What was I thinking? Everything is perfect exactly the way it is. Blizzard can never do any wrong.



  6. Ixnatifual

    Ixnatifual IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I think the new system itself is fundamentally superior. But some balance tweaking of certain skills and runes is needed.
  7. JEB90

    JEB90 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    98
    I'm genuinely curious to hear what you think makes it better other than because Blizzard made it. What's superior about a system where everyone has the same skills at the same power available to them and you have limited access to them at the same time?



  8. Zarniwoop

    Zarniwoop IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,131
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    The myth is true. You cannot design a skill system, or at least no one ever has, that doesn't have optimal paths.

    All you can do is create artificial gimmicks to make people's optimal builds not work in certain situations.
  9. Odoakar

    Odoakar IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    For me biggest problem is knowing halfway though NM, that the build I want to and enjoy playing, won't be able to make it in hell/inferno. There's maybe 2 different barb builds that can take on hell, and most of them are heavy on defensive skills.

    In D2, I solo'ed hell on /players 8 with frenzy barb, sword&shield barb and 2H ww barb. Here, the only thing I see viable for Hell is sword and shield, with WotB, Ignore pain, Earthquake and defensive passives.
  10. Galabab

    Galabab IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,219
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Agree, d3 system is dumbed down, hyped up and boring.
    The more I play d3 the more I see my former skepticism validated.
    I wish they made a mod with d3 graphics and story but all d2 core mechanics lol.
  11. BryanM

    BryanM IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    This is just me, but when I first heard about their idea for a "rune system", I thought it a terrible idea. And couldn't understand the hype people on the forums had for it:

    * A lot of the runes should have been mods on items. Such as +projectiles for Magic Missile, Toads, Charged Bolt that isn't called Charged Bolt, etc.

    * Then they tried to make a specific number of them for every skill. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, sometimes it just doesn't work. Hydra in all the colors of the rainbow? That's fine. Bash? How the hell are you going to vary Bash in six different interesting ways?

    * They had to overreach on some effects to plug the hole. The monk's teleporting Thunder Horse Fists of Thunder option is two skills mooshed into one.

    * It's a lot of work for a diminishing return on gain. While we all have a few we absolutely adore, the bulk of them are meaningless. If they didn't exist, it would still be the same game. If it meant fewer enemies, fewer overall base skills, less time spent on items; was it worth it?

    No. Hope was the curse that made the impact of the evils even worse.

    You can't interrupt old things using your chicken soup for the soul, 21st century hippy logic. I'll take Hesiod's word on it over yours. Or even overhyped blowhard Nietzsche's.


  12. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,959
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    You can complain all you want, and I agree no system is perfect, but I love this system a lot lot more than the D2 system, and other than balancing out the skills and runes so more options are viable (because let's face it - some rune options and some passives will simply never get used by an educated player, while I believe each one needs to have a place in at least 2 viable builds for it to be considered balanced), I can't really think of much to improve.
  13. Ixnatifual

    Ixnatifual IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    42
    - You don't need to Google and research for ages to avoid gimping your character.
    - You avoid the shallow gameplay of builds where it's optimal to pump very few skills.
    - You can experiment with various tools at your disposal without having to start a completely new character of the same class.
    - There's many more build combinations.
    - A misclick won't require you create a new character.

    I think those are the major reasons why Diablo 3's system simply beats Diablo 2's system hands down.

    Just my 5 cents.


  14. betazoid

    betazoid IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    Bashiok tweeted regarding WD killing Inferno butcher in 9 secs that only 0.1% of lev 60 players use the same 6 skills, not counting passives. And that was 5th common build! I would think pretty much same applies to barbarian.
  15. BryanM

    BryanM IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    It's 2012. Diablo 2 has had full respecs for years now. Please update your bullet lists accordingly.


  16. Zarniwoop

    Zarniwoop IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,131
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    I think if you if you look at how many SUCCESSFUL builds (inferno act 2+) there are, the clustering would increase a ton.



  17. hubb

    hubb IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Claiming that anyone who disagrees with you must be a frothing-at-the-mouth Blizz fanboy is an interesting way to encourage constructive discussion.

    There are many things I don't like about this game and the direction Blizz has taken, not least how you choose skills and character impermanence - I agree that they could've done it differently. That said, I think this system ultimately leads to greater variety in builds and gameplay (compared to D2), and you make some silly arguments to show otherwise. Like betazoid said it is not about how many buttons you can push, likewise I don't see how having X amount of passives somehow adds to build variety, especially when these were virtually identical across barb builds.

    Barb gameplay in D2 mainly consisted of binding your attack skill to RMB and keeping it down while running into enemies. You'd occasionally need to use one of the war cries for CC, and of course buff up with BC/BO/Shout. Depending on your build and gear level how much you spec into and use those passives, defensive skills and 1pt wonders would vary, but for the most part they were specced and used similarly across barb builds. Don't get me wrong - I love D2 and I spent an embarrassing amount of time tweaking builds and running/teleporting into things over the last 10 years - but your comparison doesn't hold up IMO.

    I think (hope) that skill balancing, item improvements (because most uniques in D2 were useful, right?) and Inferno tweaks will open up more end-game options. We're not even two weeks in and the game is already doomed? :/
  18. Sooru

    Sooru IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The problem with current situation is that one needs 3 defensive passives and 3 defensive active skills to be able to do progress in Inferno. That basically reduces the meaningful buttons one gets to press to 1-3. My current Act 1 farming build keeps up defensive buffs, once in two minutes hits two buttons for godmode, and other than that I spam cleave and occasionally Charge for healz.

    The six active skills is fine on the idea level, but as long as only one attack is absolutely needed, and taking defensive buffs for the other slots increases your chance for success, people will rather choose that way, than select 6 different, "fun" attacks that only deal damage in different ways.

    In my view, barbarian only has 4 attacks: Cleave(broad sweep), Frenzy(maniac or sidearm), Ground Slam(reduced cost) and Weapon Throw(ricochet). This is my completely biased opinion, and someone else might see a different list.

    I would like to use Ground Slam, but there's no way I can spare the skill slot. Furious charge I don't count as an attack, it's a 8% per target heal spell on cooldown, that doubles as an escape skill.

    With monk I think they made much better job at it, they have tons of attacks that deal meaningful damage while also provide other utility functions. I'm sure it makes the monk gameplay much more engaging.
  19. jurr

    jurr IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I like the respec. It works great for now with plenty of room for tweaking/expansion. My favorite part is that I have 5 characters, not 3 full accounts of playing characters and another 3 full of mules like in D2.
  20. Raazer

    Raazer IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    All your responses carry the implication that anyone who disagrees with you does so because they're blinded by their love for all things Blizzard. Actually, I like the new system, and I don't "love" Blizzard, so you can drop the arrogant bully schtick.


Share This Page