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The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by AngelLove, Jan 10, 2009. | Replies: 48 | Views: 4609

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  1. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Hi, my name is AngelLove. Long time reader, first time poster.

    I have been thinking about this, and doing a lot of research.
    But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer
    to be one of the top 5 dulers.

    There are quite a few PVP summoner guide. But almost all of them suggest
    only 1 point in revive. This strike me as odd (or holding back), for revive
    is the number one pvp skill for a summoner. Skeles simply don't cut it PVP.
    Especially against holy freeze slow, or area effect magic (or both together
    , ie. the hurricane).

    This is what I come up with. The core of the PVP summoner should be
    20 Mastery
    20 revive
    Rest is up to personal preferance. I would opt for:
    20 Skele warrior
    20 Skele mage
    20 Amp (for speed, less aiming = more speed)
    1 in CE for PVM
    1 in decrep for act bosses

    there will be +9 skill from grand charm, +1 from anni, +3 from torch,
    +1 from belt, +1 from ring, +3 from circlet, +3 from necro head, +3 from ammy
    +2 from negma. So without going all out, you have 26 plus skills.

    That gives you 46 revives at 460% enhanced damage.
    Say that you get 46 returned archers at 40 ave. damage.
    With +460% from mastery, +90% from beast, +330% from pride,
    +50% from HOW(wisp projector) +230% from might,
    you get +1160% enhanced damage.
    (if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
    How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
    I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

    Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
    and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
    This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
    or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
    (the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

    (I have heard that 15 buged claw vipers will give you 80K+, but it is too evil
    even for me. and don't work against some ppl anyway.)

    If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
    (less walky, more shooty)
    and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
    you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

    If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
    distrubing the BALANCE.

    But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
    And what I need your help with.
    (I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

    PS. feel free to copy and past this anywhere you like, just mention my name ^_^
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2009
  2. Kalkanor

    Kalkanor IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    the damage sounds good but the 1 problum i would like to point out is when you tele with enig u will be in 1 big group so all it would take to kill u would be a strong FireBall or some skill like blessed hammer that can hit you all
  3. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    That is true!

    But I will not be trying to hit them. The archers will.
    I myself will be concentrating on teleporting. Amp when I have the chance.
    The archers will auto aim + auto fire.

    What's amazing with this build is that "damage is king again".
    One hit from me will kill you. and one hit from you will kill me.
    Now, who is likely to land the first hit?
    I think it might be me due to the auto aim + auto fire.
    But it really needs to be experimented. ^_^
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2009
  4. Kalkanor

    Kalkanor IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    ya i spose your right and it does sound like fun^^

    one other thing i would like to point out it will be near impsoable to have the full 46 revives running at the same time since they each only last 180 seconds each:(
  5. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    That is the biggest problem with this build:
    The 3 minute timer.

    The faster you gather archers, the more fighting time you have.
    But it will likely be less than 2 minutes.

    Prebuff with +mastery/revive gear will help with number and damage.
    But not time.

    Good thing that most ppl look down on summoners, and will not run too hard.
    And with that one big monster, your group will look small and friendly.

    PS: it only takes 40 archers, not 46, to do 40K with amp. few more or few less don't change much.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2009
  6. sequoia

    sequoia IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    I'd always thought summons had a much LARGER PvP penalty than the one the players suffered. It also sounds like you are relying on a merc, which most people shy away from.

    And stay away from LF zons!
  7. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    " Minions attack hostile players or their minions, but their damage is reduced by half "
    - diablowiki

    Please do understand, what kind of struggle I have gone through before posting this.
    This build is pure evil. And I do not want to see anyone doing this if this do work.

    With that said. You may come up with 100 builds that can kill me in 1 hit.
    And I will just repeat 100 times that I will kill them in 1 hit as well.
    It will always come down to who is going to land that hit first.
    And that can only be known through experiment.

    Why should I stay away from anyone again? Because you are sure they will hit me first?
    I am useing an auto aim, auto fire, fast speed, long range, 40K+ attack you know.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2009
  8. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    You will have low FCR and resists. A Ghost will terminate you, as will LF zons and Fireball sorcs. You won't have block, so other chars will have an edge too. Make sure you don't get hit by Rabies, either. I've seen too many summon-using necros die to desynch Hammerdins to believe minion stack will protect you. Not only does it take 20 minutes to summon all those things, it will take another 20 to resummon once you die (and you will die). And that's assuming people let you get your body back and you remembered to hide your gold so you can rehire your merc. And you'll run out of archers fast.

    It's going to be funny when someone uses Slow Missiles on you.

    The points in Amp are better spent in Bone Wall for the Armor synergy.
  9. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Why are people not getting my point?
    Dead people won't attack you. Dead people does 0 physical
    and 0 elemental attack damage.
    You do not need fast hit recovery or resist against dead people.
    (not that you can't get some on your charm or helm or shield or glove or shoe if you do want them)

    Dead people will not desynch, dead people will not whirwind or cast fire ball.
    You do not need proctection from summon stack or bone armor as
    dead people does not do anything, other than being dead.

    Please do not compare the all out evil summoner with any other kind-hearted,
    half-arssed hybrid. Because the ARCHER KING is all about 1 hit kill.
    All will be decided in the first second. You hit me or I hit you. You die or I die.

    I know this is hard to comprehand in the "survivle is king" era.
    But please do try. 1 hit kill = damage is king = what is fhr?

    If it is as I feared. That the archers with the "no fan out trick" will attack
    the very nano second that you finish teleport.
    your screen will look like this:

    XXXIOWNALLXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXPKKINGXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXKILLALLNUBEXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXPOWNGODXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXGODXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXIRULEXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    XXXIEBAYXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
    evil_summoner has exited the game
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2009
  10. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    There are a few things I wish to add:

    There is a bug that turns a necro into an invincible vampire.
    There is another bug that gives you untimed, unkillable revives.
    I don't know how to use them. Even if I do, I won't tell.
    This is a BM build. Not a CHEATING build.

    This is not a guide per se, for I have no intention of guiding anyone
    down the path of darkness.

    I am not here to argue who is the strongest. But I have done a lot of
    thinking and research before posting this. The effectivness of
    this build cannot be easily disproved.

    I remember dragging around 20 revives, without +skill items,
    without teleport, without aura. If you have +skill items, teleport,
    and tri-aura, you will find it easy to get 40+ revives.
    However, to make them all of the same kind,
    takes knowledge of the game and skill as a summoner.
    But it can be done. You can bank on it.
    (If you find it hard to kill monster fast. Max CE instead of mage.)

    Have you ever been killed by hell ranged attacker before?
    A pack of archers with a unique can be dangerous.
    A pack of archers with nothing but uniques is even more deadly.
    A screen full of unique archers that suddenly appear and attack before
    you have a chance to respond is.......

    Do you see the horror that I see now?

    I am not after ownage, I am after knowledge.
    That's way I don't care if I ever build one myself.
    However, I did try to build one. I worked hard. But doesn't seem to be
    getting anywhere near my goal. I have two Pul runes, one I found myself
    . One I traded for with a set of keys (God I hope it's not a dupe).
    But as you can see. I am far from Jah ith ber of the enigma.
    And I need pride, beast and all the charms after that. (plus a soj).
    It's hopeless.

    And that's why I come before you, good people of the necro forum.
    If you have tried this, or if you have fought an archer king before
    (defined by 40+ archers, with 3+ auras), please share your wisdom.
    Or if you can conjure one up with the magic that you do and test it
    yourself, I will be greatful.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2009
  11. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Im glad I just enjoy walking my summons around, kicking the odd chest open here and there and sifting through stuff...........:whistling:
  12. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    I hear you. ^_^
    I used to be a happy-go-lucky guy myself.
    Untill all those BM guys and Cooki-cutter PKers
    filled me with murderous rage.

    Now I just want gore. (not al gore)
    I want to build one that can kill all BMers, and all Godly windy and pallys.
    And this MIGHT be it.
  13. Kaleban

    Kaleban IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    I would say, instead of talking up a build you haven't tried, try it and test it.

    Plenty of the PvP Summoner guides list strengths and weaknesses versus various regularly used PvP builds.

    One of the problems you'll have is damage (I think its been mentioned) that is AoE, splash and or piercing. A FC Zon will obliterate you, Fireball sorks will fry you, any lightning trapper that namelocks you with MB will also hit all of your minions, a Hammerdin that sets up a hammerfield that you teleport into will pwn you, etc., etc.

    There are counters for any class, and while you may think that 40 revived archers = instant death, in a duel situation the other player is likely experienced and not some noov PvMer that has never been PKed before. Which means they'll have 75% block, max DR, probably some static PDR and MDR, teleport from Enigma, etc., etc.

    So as I said, if you don't want critticism of your build idea, then YOU must go forth and test it, otherwise simply talking up a hypothetical build with nothing to back it up just makes you look ignorant.
  14. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    I am begging people to test it!
    That is the whole purpose of This post!
    This is because I myself am not very capable in that department!
    Please do try to understand.

    (I am what people called a "weekend warrior", and a "pure" one at that.
    There are things that I cannot do. Laugh at me if you must.)

    There are kind-hearted summoners out there. Winning duals.
    They think it's because of the skeles, it's not.
    They happen to have some good revive with them when they win.
    That is why.
    When they tell people they are winning, no one believed them.
    Because those summoners themself don't know why they win.
    They tell people how good their skeles are.
    But it does not make sense.

    Revive might be THE most underestamated skill in PVP.
    Are you telling me no one here have the "love of knowledge"
    and the "know-how on char building" to find out?
    Are you telling me that I bring something interesting in front of you,
    but all of you need to be spoon fed the entire package?

    Help me put in the last piece of the puzzle.
    The archers, do they, or do they not have a hesitation timer?
    If they don't, you will reign supreme.

    it's that simple, do the math.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  15. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    People turn into robots after a while.
    1 point into revive is the LAW. no one can break the law.
    It's ridiculus.
    They can kill the ubers, but they cannot do anything to other players,
    RIGHT?
    They are only good as meat shileds, RIGHT?
    200 people visited this thread so far,
    and not a single one of them have seen an archer king.
    Is that not reason enough to try this?
    To boldly go where no man has gone before?

    When a group of archers first appear on the edge of screen,
    they will not attack. Allowing the player to cast slow missile or dim vision.
    But what will happen if you teleported right into their kill zone?

    Do you know how desync works?
    It takes some time for the image to appear on your screen.
    In other words, when you see an archer king.
    the "reverse muti-arrow" is already on it's way.
    If you choose to fight back.
    by the time your missile is lunched.
    Their missile would have landed.

    No matter how good you are, there are things that cannot be survived.
    and 40 unique archers attacking at the same time is one of them.
    My damage estimate is on the low end. It could easily be 3 times as much.

    (BTW, they are unique arhcers because they are Aura enhanced x4, cursed, and extra strong
    , they also teleport, and the low PVP penalty give them a 300% advantage over players.
    Most importantly, there are enough of them to cover your entire screen.)
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  16. Kaleban

    Kaleban IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Before extolling the virtues of a thing, you must first test it YOURSELF, or you just look like an idiot.

    Not laughing at you, simply saying don't make outlandish claims about something before first checking it yourself. Its like a physicist saying that perpetual motion is real and simple, but just needs someone else to do the hard work.

    A person wins a duel when the other person dies. Not because someone has to convince the other they lost. Skeles and skelemagi are known qualities in a build, whereas Revives are not. I highly doubt that in every Summon Necro PvP victory the direct reason is lucky awesome revives. That's statistically impossible.

    You might have an interesting idea, but all you're doing is talking up something you have no idea of. You're a snake oil salesman in that respect. Plus, you really shouldn't diss the community that has put up many fine Necro guides, or done this very type of research.

    YOU do the math. Simple. Then come tell how it worked out, and you'll get credit for your innovative idea. But stop trying to get others to do the dirty work for you.


  17. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Oh! So playing games is DIRTY work now, eh?

    IF you don't want to help me, don't.

    This build will NEVER be tested if I have to do it myself.
    That is the reality of things.

    Oh, I get it. You guys don't offer help here, is that it?
    Or is it just the testing kind of help that is sold out right now?
    Like I said. If you don't want to help, don't.

    I am asking for help and you are not helping, so why are you here?
    To trash talk someone who is asking for help,
    because he is asking for help?
    You think that even though I can't build one for testing,
    some how I can build one to play with?
    That I am using you?

    There are many kinds of people in this world,
    not everyone do things the same way.
    I wish your father have told you this, so I won't have to.

    You think I am lazy? That's why I need help?
    Keep your assumptions to yourself!
    That is not even game related.
    That is a direct insult on me!

    (snake oil salsman? STOP with the name calling.)
    (your negative aura is really hurting my resistance right now, take it eleswhere.)
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2009
  18. AngelLove

    AngelLove IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Why do you feel the need to piss me off?

    There are no doubt people out there with a summoner
    that has max revive and similar gear like I described.

    all he need to do is to take it out for a spin.
    get a few archers, fight a good fight.

    people helping each other out is a beautiful thing.
    Why do you hate beautiful things?
    Why do you feel the need to destroy them?
    Maybe I am not the one that really need help here.

    By the way, where is your guide that you made WITHOUT help?
    Show me. You MUST have one, right?
  19. Kaleban

    Kaleban IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    In an attempt to give you fair criticism, I'll go through your OP step by step.

    You have a distinct LACK of research, and there MIGHT be a reason why only one person considers a Summoner in the top 5.

    There's a couple of reasons. The Revive timer, which makes it difficult even with teleport to gather up 46 revived hell archer types. The negatives you list also affect your Revives as well. Revive is NOT the #1 PvP skill for summoners, otherwise it would be more in use. That is just your unsubstantiated claim. And considering that many necros load up on +skills, a 1 point investment can return great dividends on Revive, especially when those points can be added into SM, curses or even a Bone spell, there are several Bone/Summon Hybrid guides for instance.

    Your "core" build requires 105 skill points. Not very many people are going to level a guardian/pat/matriarch to level 94 to test some lurker's half-cocked theory.

    Without going all out? 9 skillers, anni, torch, enigma, and expensive other gear in slots. So not only do you want someone else to do the testing for you, you've restricted it to pretty much the uber rich?

    More expensive stuff here, Wisp and Beast, Pride, etc. And that's conservative? Not to mention that by the time you are able to Revive the 46th monster, your initial Revives are already dieing off.

    Not sure where you're getting all these numbers, but don't you think if these numbers were valid AND the management of 46 Revived archers were possible, that people would be calling this the cookie cutter PvP summoner?

    I'm not sure why, but every one of your posts is overflowing with drama and gravitas, over a build you yourself have only conceived of in your head, without taking the time to really work out the details. Here's a couple:

    1. Upkeep of Revives. Maintaining 46, much less 46 of a specific type in random spawning areas imho is nigh on impossible.

    2. Gear requirement. Utterly rediculous for all but the richest of players, making the ability to test a snowball's chance in hell.

    3. Minion stack. This has been mentioned, but you seem all to willing to ignore criticism, but a well aimed fireball, lightning bolt, blessed hammer or any number of AoE/splash attacks will kill you, and your army. A Trapsin would simply namelock you with MB, keeping you and your 46 Revives stunned, while the piercing lightning traps decimate you and your invincible army.

    If you want name recognition, try testing your idea, and post a writeup of the success or failure. If you can't be bothered to test it, then whoever does (IF ever) deserves the credit for doing th actual work.


  20. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Yeah, there's a reason for that.

    Dead people will not teleport around with 45 champion archers.

    Dead people, before dying, desynch and hammer, which prevents them from ever becoming dead. It will help YOU reach that state, though.

    A Life Tap wand or Exile will keep people whirlwinding and smiting happily.

    And then come 8 minutes of finding new archers, killing them and Reviving them.

    FHR is what you will need when MBed and trapped, when all your 460%ED archers are just sitting there doing nothing while someone puts their Shadow Dancers in your ***.

    And if you never hit, you never kill. You seem to forget you're dueling people who are alive, not dead. They can do plenty.

    If you were less of a weekend warrior, you would know monsters don't instantly react to your presence, which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting.

    Archers only hit stationary targets, which aren't too common in PvP.

    All will be decided the second you take to the field against a char that outclasses you.

    They hit you.

    You die.


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