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So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

Discussion in 'Wizard' started by DickScotchfist, Oct 24, 2012. | Replies: 38 | Views: 16167

  1. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    UPDATED: 30 October 2012- "Tricks of the Trade" section in Post #3

    This post builds off of the brilliance of
    the windup wizard. For more information, visit the man who started it all at www.windupwizard.com.

    In my opinion the greatest misstep being made right now by aspiring windups [cm/ww wizards] is jumping on the ias>ALL bandwagon.

    Now, don't get me wrong, as fellow windup friends have proven to me, IAS is much more important than we ever realized, and should definitely be more of a priority. However, unless you have a lot of patience, you shouldn't be throwing all your earnings at ias to hit the "3.0 APS Graceland," unless you plan on doing NO deeps.

    So what then? What has changed about Windups in 1.05? In my opinion, I think it should be our paradigm of how the build should work. Maybe we need to completely forget about "stun locking" enemies. I know I did. And once I let go my need to stun lock, I realized having a windup that "stutter-stuns" can be nearly as effective. Accept the fact that you'll probably NEVER be able to lock down a single enemy completely, and your life becomes a lot easier. Suddenly, 2.0 APS is fine and you start wondering who really needs 3.0 APS anyways (bury that jealousy nice and deep). The key to Stutter-stunning being as effective as stun locking is to make building your EHP as important or even more important than building your IAS (to a certain extent). So, replace:

    IAS>All

    With this:

    EHP>IAS>All (yes, yes, crit chance too of course)

    1.Try to make sure you have strength and/or armor on everything (the days of being able to get by using a shield as an armor boost are over).
    2.Can't afford All res? Get phys res. Better yet, get both.
    3.Chill the f$kc out on the vitality. You don't need much as a windup (if using prismatic armor). Try to get most of your vit from your pants and chest piece, where it's by far the cheapest versus other items.
    4.Strongarms effing rock! Get AR on em for cheap.
    5.Sockets on Helms are overrated.

    By prioritizing EHP, you'll see the power of Stutter-stunning since you can survive an enemy being 25% active with complete ease. And if you're worried that not being able to completely stunlock will make you a worse teammate, don't. No one else even notices. They're just grateful for the 75% stun.

    Bonus: with today's damage nerf, try to do away with teleport if you can. You can replace it with Stretch Time, which is a "cheap" 10% ias boost, and a simple way to meet the next Energy Twister breakpoint. You'll also get browny points from your team as everyone loves seeing their own dps go up

    Edit: Careful using this skill on Uber-Magda! Her wasps will bunch up and not disappear since they can't travel far. You can end up with an Instagibbing 10 Wasp freight train once the bubble disappears.


    All this being said, if you've got the determination and want the best of both worlds (Max ehp AND ias) I highly recommend looking at fellow incgamer forum user Kestegs' Armory profile. He's far and away the strongest Windup Wizard I've played with and his setup and methodology can give you insight into some great item directions to ultimately shoot for.

    -Lostman


    my own current gear: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/LostMan-1541/hero/14272321


    Edit: see reply post (2 posts down) by me for more information and recommendations
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  2. darkrealm

    darkrealm IncGamers Site Pal

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    You probably should look at developing minimums & standards for people know what to shoot for. IE Crit Chance, IAS, EHP, etc etc. Also, people should understand EHP (Effective Hit Points/Effective Health Pool) is a term to represent how much damage you can survive given a few factors like resists, armor, etc. If anyone wants to get an idea on their own personal EHP you can go to: http://www.diabloprogress.com/ In addition, you also might want to include costs for a setup and speak about your own gearing choices versus Kestegs. One last note, Stutter stunning is very obtainable for just about any build with CM, Frost Nova, and Wicked Wind. But there are levels of reductions in CDs that speak to the IAS part of the equation that Lost is referring to here.
  3. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    UPDATED: 30 October 2012- "Tricks of the Trade" section

    Yeah, I don't mind fleshing this out a bit. Although I personally hate "minimum standards" for this type of build since it's really all relative (increasing ias decreases the minimum crit you need and vice versa). Secondly, I wanna jump in here and plug my own favorite EHP calc site. While I love dprogress and use it, nothing comes close to http://www.d3up.com in my honest opinion (dprogress has problems with hellfire rings). Until I can really give this some thought, let me list what the new minimums are for an effective Stutterstun Windup. Again, this is MY opinion, as my requirements differ somewhat from mainstreams':

    Crit chance: 40% (so 37% while playing solo, but using scoundrel's Crit buff- be sure to equip him with a Buriza bow!)

    Ias: 1.88 Attacks per second- this was the first breakpoint I hit where I noticed a huge leap forward in effectiveness by getting 2 more ticks per second with each tornado (Other important breakpoints to shoot for: 2.001, 2.15, 2.31). These numbers are important! Don't buy gloves with 9% ias if 6% ias gloves get you to the same breakpoint for cheaper!!

    armor: This one is difficult as the number I'm going to throw out is all theory and untested (but I'll try to test it this week). Unfortunately this really needs to be quite high, as we can't use shields anymore to boost it an extra 1200. I'm going to have to say 4000 unbuffed minimum. And honestly, that is minimum. You really ought to eventually shoot for 4800-5000 somehow (Sidenote: Do NOT use the enchantress' newly nerfed 5% buff to reach this number. If you're using her, choose her "6% damage mitigation from ranged attacks." It is a WAY higher EHP boost).

    All res: Ah, yes, everyone's favorite. This really depends. Do you want to use prismatic or storm armor? I opt for storm, but only because my unbuffed AR is 1000. But for the longest time, I used prismatic and it was more than adequate. I recommend prismatic for most new players. 800 buffed should be a good starting point

    Movement speed: Luxury only. Pass (though helpful if you opt out of using teleport). MS is nice, but should take a backseat to other stats.

    APoC: 18 minimum, 20 ideally (yes, 2 points is very noticeable, especially against single targets like Ubers). HOWEVER, keep in mind that as your other stats increase past the minimum, this number could theoretically decrease (I'm messing around with 10 APoC at 2.31 ApS, and I don't recommend that low). Really though, there's no reason to drop below 18 which is a very affordable 9 ApoC on two pieces. Apoc on three pieces is an absurd waste of stats and gold that could have been better used, so don't fall into that pitfall either.

    LoH: People say 800 which is crazy low in my opinion (though completely sufficient if you're using storm armor-shocking aspect). Back in 1.03 days, when you could have like 1.5 ApS and be extremely strong, the minimum was 600. We're half as effective now, so you do the math. I'd say 1000 minimum. Also keep in mind that LS works sort of well (or extremely well if you run storm armor) at higher DPS ranges, so you can use a little of both to lessen the load. But really, with the increased jewelry LoH stats of 1.05, 1000 shouldn't be out of this world for anyone. Remember to check your ego at the door and socket an amethyst in your weapon in the beginning. Again, this number can decrease as other stats increase. For reference, at 2.15 600-800 LoH is quite all right.

    Tricks of the Trade:

    Wanna help boost team dps a ton for key farming? Select Bonechill rune for frost nova, strap on some Firewalkers, and be sure to add Conflagration as one of your passives. Team DPS is now essentially boosted by 25%.

    After you've covered your EHP (NOT before, which is the fad right now), hitting 2.74 Attacks per second is a HUGE leap forward in build effectiveness, really aim for it once you feel tanky enough.

    Chantodo's with IAS is amazing. Forget the crit gem.

    Armor, armor, armor. Do NOT buy into this growing "build-your-dexterity" fad for windup wizards. Dex can be an awesome EHP boost... when you're a monk and it's your main stat as well. Pass on this fad to build "chance" EHP.

    Zuni's 3 piece set is getting more and more affordable as people jump on the ias bandwagon, and it's 55 AR/huge Int Set bonuses are pretty much unmatched in game at the moment.

    Really strive to get a decent hellfire. It may seem unlikely, but it's actually the greatest chance windups have to land an epic ring, all things considered.

    After you've covered your EHP and IAS, another goal to strive towards is obtaining an epic Nat's set (boots + ring). This will give you a 7% crit chance boost.



    Think I covered the basics here. DPS is highly personal choice (how patient are you?), so I won't make a recommendation on that.

    -Lostman
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  4. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    Looks pretty nice, and I'll agree on most of your values and ideas.

    I will say that I recently moved from 2.0 APS up to 2.74 APS and the difference is very noticeable. I lost about 50k DPS doing that (160 down to 110) but the kill speed is similar. You get a lot more actual damage ticks with that high of APS. Right now I don't think it's really worth it to go for the 3.0 APS breakpoint as you have to use things like APoC on a source and Inna's pants and you have to eat a ton of DPS.

    I would highly recommend looking at the Chantodo's set as it is great for this build.

    And there is an easy way to figure your APS if anyone doesn't know it: Take listed weapon speed (mine is 1.79) x 1.** where ** is your added % attack speed on your other gear.

    So mine looks like this:

    wand 1.79

    off hand: 9%
    belt: 8%
    bracers: 8%
    amulet: 8%
    ring1: 6%
    ring2: 8%
    gloves 9%
    Total: 56%

    so 1.79 x 1.56 = 2.79 APS

    My wizard is here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/kestegs-1550/hero/2308067
  5. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    very cool, I did not know that equation. But I think you misunderstood my post. It wasn't a shot at people with high IAS, it was more of a "look we're still okay until we get there" sort of post. I ultimately want your IAS too and think everyone should shoot for it, which is why I directed them to your profile.
  6. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    That's really equal to A*C, where A is attacks per second and C is crit chance.

    Let's say Arcanestegs lost the 8% attack speed mod on Zumi's ring (I don't care if it's possible or not) and instead gained 5.0% crit chance.

    Current: 0.51*2.79 = 1.423
    With more crit: 0.56* 2.65 = 1.484

    So increasing crit chance can do just as much to reduce cooldowns as increasing attack speed. Just like balancing crit damage and crit chance for DPS, focusing too much on one or the other blinds you to the best upgrades.
  7. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    This is misleading as you're not taking into account total ticks/second at each breakpoint. Not to mention the gains of hitting a new breakpoint with a 100mil ias ring is way more cost effective than the gains of getting a 5crit chance (really? cause those are everywhere week 2 of patch right?) zunimassa's pox ring with armor/vit at 800 million, yet remaining at a lower breakpoint.

    Edit: and just to drive home how misguided this is, I'd like to add that Kestegs just yesterday actually sold his crit chance Zunimassa's and replaced it with his current ias zuni's, a smart move imo (if you subscribe to the "must have 55 AR bonus from 3 piece zuni's" philosophy as most do. I however, do not [currently]. The price of getting viable offensive stats on a zuni's ring is quite obscene at the moment, and putting that AR on other pieces can be a much more affordable option, allowing BOTH 5 crit & ias boost).
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  8. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    No, I agree with you there. You by no means need that much IAS, but it helps a lot. I ran effectively at 2.0 APS when 1.0.5 launched.

    Dick pretty well covers it below. My end goal is to get a zuni's pox with IAS/Crit chance, but that's a ways off.


    I thought Dick linked the reference for the WW breakpoints. Here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641?page=1
  9. WNxZerker

    WNxZerker IncGamers Member

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    Looking at the WW Break points I guess you also have to look hard at your build too before you go and buy IAS gear.
    I'm using Mistral breeze and find I do just fine Stutter freezing with a much lower attack speed, however I have a lot more APoC and max AP I also throw out more energy twisters which in theory lowers my wind up dps because I'm casting Energy twister more often instead of just refreshing the WW and focusing on stacking exploding blast.

    What I'm going to take away from this is that instead of 3 sources of APoC, with higher IAS and continued high crit you can drop down to 2 sources of APoC and still have enough fuel for the CM engine.

    for me I'm thinking drop triumvirate for a lower damage chantodo's force (read I'm cheap) and drop storm crow for an IAS helm, and get on the band wagon of the new crit IAS rings and ammy's

    however for those starting out that cant afford alot of epic gear, would you advise an IAS Dagger and APoC helm and source or is a Chantodo's will the only way to go? my thinking is that an IAS Dagger can get to 1.6 (not 100% sure) making a better base to start from yes?
  10. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    This may be the best option... soon. But as of RIGHT NOW. Chantodo's wands with ias (no socket) are EXTREMELY affordable despite being the better of the two. Likewise, a Chantodo's source without APoC is also very cheap, even with a good 150 str on it too (armor). You also won't even need to drop your damage really (I got mine for 20 mil). Like you, I also dropped the Triumvirate/BlackWepDPSBoost combo since writing this post yesterday. I must say, while I stand by my post that the Stutter-Stun Windup Wizard is extremely viable and very strong still... Hitting the 2.74 breakpoint is pretty epic. And I was surprised by how little the overall DPS loss actually was after giving up my crit gem.

    In short, no, I think it's a beautiful time right now where the BiS weapon/source is shockingly the cheapest high-end option as well. Soon though, your idea will probably become standard for new windups.

    Important bonuses about the chantodo's source/wand combo to remember (to help you get over losing that Tri dps boost):
    -More crit chance (10)
    -Even w/o APoC, Max AP is still very affordable on source (15)
    -Armor (str) is very affordable on source
    -HUGE EHP GAIN!!! - The set bonus from the two grant you 7% damage reduction from elites.
    -Solid Int Bonus

    If you look at my current gear, I bought that wand and source for under 90 mil total and I consider them to be very good imo. I'm sure you could pick up nearly strong versions for under 45 mil total for the two (right now now now, hint hint). Do not expect these prices to last on the wand. Eventually, people will realize that their non-socketed Chantodo's wand may not be such a bad roll afterall.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  11. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Correct. I wasn't.
    Assuming breakpoints don't completely mess up my math here, it should be a cheaper ring, because it does less. Paying 10 times as much for that last 1% effectiveness is pretty much standard for high-end gear.
    Deliberately downgrading your equipment for immediate profit is almost always a bad idea. Crit chance isn't a fad, it is just straight-up good; it's not going to stop being good. Over time, a crit-chance Zuni's will depreciate slower than an attack-speed Zuni's, because the better the gear is the slower it depreciates. It wasn't a smart move; it was a dumb one.
  12. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    I actually sold my 3% cc zuni's for more than I paid for my AS zuni's, and I expect the price on low cc zuni's will continue to fall. It was an upgrade as far as farming efficiency goes, and also effective health so I see no issue with it. It's also not a piece I can replace until I have 600+ million to spend on that slot so it'll be there for quite a while.

    If you know so much about the best gear for a windup wizard you should show us your gear.
  13. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    False logic. I don't need to play a wind-up wizard to be able to properly perform basic arithmetic.

    Regardless, here's the math where we actually factor in breakpoints:
    33*.54=17.82 crits* per twister per target per duration (your old ring)
    36*.51=18.36 crits* per twister per target per duration (your new ring)
    33*.56=18.48 crits* per twister per target per duration (5% crit chance zunis)

    * remember to apply proc rate when determining APoC returns

    So in conclusion
    1) I'm good at math
    2) Being good at math doesn't help you if you're ignorant of exceptions, such as breakpoint tables, because you don't actually play a certain character type (I have played a nightstalker DH before though, so the crits/sec metric is familar)
    3) Sometimes I'm a dick and assume too much, like assuming the zunis had at least 4.5% cc (even at 4.5% the attack speed would have been a very slight upgrade due to breakpoints)
  14. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    Right.

    The biggest factor though is whether you hit the breakpoint or not. Hitting the 2.74 breakpoint gives me roughly a 10% increase in ww ticks so it isn't linear like most skills.


    Really it was just the cheapest and easiest way to reach that breakpoint.
  15. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    Hitting a new breakpoint is a major achievement, and worthy of losing a couple crit points by far, which you can make up by dropping your nova rune, etc. Rune switches are easy and do not break builds or even necessarily worsen them. In order to "skill-boost" the speed at which your tornados 'punch' an enemy takes an entire skill button sacrifice.

    His decision was an upgrade in my eyes, plain and simple.

    And please at least replace your math with 4.0, not 5.0, as 5.0 rings (where the other stats aren't trash) are out-of-this world expensive even as end game pieces (just hard to find really) as of right now. Your self-berating post though was pretty cool, and I'm appreciative that you got a discussion going while remaining humble.

    The real question here should be whether all these sacrifices are worth it for the most expensive 55 All Res in the game with the current damage rate at mp10. I'm surprised this hasn't become the talking point yet. Regardless of everyones opinion, I think we can all agree that correct end game EHP gear has a zuni's pox. And if I eventually roll cc on my hellfire (please, God, soon), I intend to lose my damage-trifecta rare and can only hope to replace it with something close to kestegs' EHP heavy, ias zuni's.

    Out of curiosity what wizard are you running if I might ask? If it is a windup, please tell us your ApS and your success with it. Better yet, if crit is so important to you, at which point do you feel enough is enough on stacking it. You seem to know what you're talking about, so I'd appreciate an outside opinion.
  16. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Did a lot of research into Energy Twister breakpoints. Even made a spreadsheet. Not too interesting though, I'm afraid.

    All my research really backs this point up. Socketed isn't even the second best mod; that distinction goes to Energy Twister skill bonus (more crit chance); a high skill bonus is better than a low IAS, but nothing beats an 11-percenter.

    On that note, the BiS ring would be a 6% Twister skill bonus, 6% crit chance, 7% attack speed Skull Grasp. With Int. Good luck finding that one, especially since you can't (currently) run a search for the twister bonus in the AH.

    For reaching the higher breakpoints, somewhat odd gear such as Inna's Temperance and (extra-weird) Asheara's Tracks are required. Has anyone used these? I think the Inna's are actually a good idea, you should be able to find a cheap pair with Int on them socket it up with topazes, but the Tracks seem like a steep cost to reach the next breakpoint.
  17. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    I'm currently saving for temperance pants myself so that I can put crit on my zuni ring instead of ias. Instead of int though, I'm looking at very high armor ones (800 range) and will probably socket them with vit gems to make them more ehp worthy.

    That skull grasp is an idea! I want to look into this more.

    Edit: pretty sure 10 is perfect ias on chants wand too, though might be wrong.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  18. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    I've never seen an 11% Chantodo, not sure why it can't get it though.

    Inna's pants are such an EHP nightmare for a wizard. I think the only way I could do it would be to get them with 70+ AR
  19. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    I count dodge chance in my EHP calculations, although non-dodge EHP is still important when you're at risk of getting one-shot. I definitely think Dex-for-dodge>Str-for-armor... which apparently is something that people are already doing when looking at Chantodo sources, if this thread is any indicator. (Obviously Vit is better than both.)

    Btw here's a breakpoint table that I think is better than the other's I've seen around:
    Code:
    OFF-WEAPON IAS NEEDED FOR BREAKPOINTS                 TWISTER TICKS PER CAST
    WEAPON              FOLLOWER          APS    40   36  32  30  27  25  24  22  21  20  18
    11%IAS Chantodo's   Enchantress      1.834   82   64  49  37  26  17  10   3   0
    11%IAS Chantodo's   non-Enchantress  1.804   85   67  52  39  28  19  11   4   0
    Azurewrath          Enchantress      1.720   94   75  59  46  35  25  17  10   3   0
    Azurewrath          non-Enchantress  1.690   98   78  62  48  37  27  19  11   5   0
    rare 11%IAS dagger  Enchantress      1.695   97   77  61  48  37  27  18  11   5   0
    rare 11%IAS dagger  non-Enchantress  1.665  101   81  64  51  39  29  21  13   6   1   0
    nonIAS Chantodo's   Enchantress      1.680   99   79  63  49  38  28  20  12   6   0
    nonIAS Chantodo's   non-Enchantress  1.650  103   82  66  52  40  30  22  14   7   2   0
    rare 11%IAS wand    Enchantress      1.584  111   90  73  58  46  36  27  19  12   6   0
    rare 11%IAS wand    non-Enchantress  1.554        94  76  61  49  38  29  21  14   8   0
    rare nonIAS dagger  Enchantress      1.530        97  79  64  51  41  31  23  16   9   0
    rare nonIAS dagger  non-Enchantress  1.500       100  82  67  54  43  34  25  18  12   0
    rare nonIAS wand    Enchantress      1.430       110  91  75  62  50  40  32  24  17   5
    rare nonIAS wand    non-Enchantress  1.400            95  79  65  54  43  34  27  20   8
    I think highest off-weapon IAS possible (on a wizard) is 88%, but I went 25% over just in case (plus, you can see how Frenzy shrines effect you, assuming they aren't weird like Enchantress bonus).
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  20. DickScotchfist

    DickScotchfist <font color=#168A19>PoE Moderator</font>

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    QQ so 11% does exist :-/

    Yeah, after feeling solid taking on mp10 ubers today, I could still sense that I'm only slightly above the necessary (not far above as I presumed) AR to do so. So the cheap 800 armor inna's are not happening I'm afraid. The Zuni's bonus is just too sweet, but it can't cover not having AR on pants. Neither will any nat's set be happening for awhile.

    Guess it's time for flat out upgrading now. Maybe try to increase the CD a bit.

    Thanks for that table. It's part of my OS background now ^_^

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