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Smiter: HoZ vs. Exile

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Holy Dude, Nov 4, 2013. | Replies: 22 | Views: 3013

  1. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Debate thread on which is better and why?
     
  2. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    In which situation?


    Herald of Zakarum
    Gilded Shield
    [​IMG]

    Shield Class
    Defence: 422.5-507
    Paladin Chance To Block: 75%
    Durability: 50
    Required Strength: 89
    Smite Damage: 20-28
    (Paladin Only)
    Required Level: 42

    +2 to Combat Skill (Paladin only)
    +2 to Paladin skill levels
    +30% Faster Block Rate
    Increased Chance of Blocking 30%
    20% Bonus to Attack Rating
    +150-200% Enhanced Defense
    +20 to Strength
    +20 to Vitality
    +50% All Resistances


    Exile
    Paladin Item
    Required Level: 57

    Vex + Ohm + Ist + Dol

    15% Chance to Cast Level 5 Life Tap on Striking
    Level 13-16 Defiance Aura When Equipped
    +2 to Offensive Auras (Paladin only)
    +30% Faster Block Rate
    +1 Freezes target
    +220-260% Enhanced Defense
    +7 Replenish Life
    +5% to Maximum Cold Resist
    +5% to Maximum Fire Resist
    Better Chance of Getting Magic Items 25%
    Repairs 1 durability in 4 seconds
     
  3. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    (Sry for the double post, but I could edit properly!)


    Why start a debate about something, when the 2 shields are so different? :D

    Look for yourself!
     
  4. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Whoa, never noticed.
     
  5. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    HoZ is better for a Smiter [It has to be Uped Ber'd HoZ]:

    Best overall for PvP [watch out for high Ar Barbs and all high Ar melee Chars] only in that case you will need the Defense from Exile, and not only from Exile, but from CoA and even Eth Treks, im telling you if you dont have 40 k Defense agains those guys, you will get slapped pretty bad.

    HoZ:

    1) 4 Skills more
    2) More Shield Damage [Less gap between min and max Damage as well]
    3) Better block
    4) More Res
    5) Bonus to Ar
    6) Str, Life

    Exile:

    1) Life Tap ... ok can be crucial for Pvp, but don't forget most duels are endet in 2-3 hits, specialy if you face High Ar Barb or Good Smiter,so the chance to tap is not very high, but definitly can safe your *** at least for a while LoL
    2) Huge Defense, like i said above in which cases u will need the Defense.

    Forgot to add that if you use Vortex Exile on Smiter you are screwed, people who knows what im talking about wont ask me why :)...

    AND for PvP Exile goes with CoA, because you will f*ck up ur DR if you remove Hoz, which means you will screw your skills and life and mana even further.

    EdiT: If you play PvM, i would stick with Exile, the chance to die is less, and if you do Ubers i would definitly stick with Exile too!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  6. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    What about those who don't know what you're talking about with vortex exile?
     
  7. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    ST has better chance to block (60%) and with Vortex (51%) you wont have max block with it unless you put like 20 points into dex to cover up the 10% differense, which is a big Hp loss and the Diff is like 4-5k def and thats just for 1 type of dueling, in general you lose life against all types of charakters if u do that, which doesnt worth it....you follow me

    EDIT: If you don't have max block as a smier against barbs you fail harder then a fat guy on a diet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  8. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    I feel it is worth noting that Life Tap is considered bad mannered in almost every duel anyways. I SAID ALMOST, RELAX.

    But in general, it really is a toss up that REALLY depends on the rest of your gear.

    Exiles' biggest bonuses (really its only ones over HoZ in my opinion) is the Life Tap and the Defiance aura. An Exile wearing Paladin debatably has the greatest overall defense in the game, rivaled only by a Concentrate Barbarian. It is pretty easy to get over 20k defense with an Exile, maxed Holy Shield, and a big armor with other decent defense elsewhere.

    However, as far as general mods go, HoZ wins ten times over in my book. Too many good mods to count. The only drawback is the need to use either a Last Wish, Dracul's Grasp, or Life Tap wand during Ubers and sometimes D Clone (though I have beaten D Clone with a caster before.)

    An upped HoZ, while doing less maximum damage than a Vortex shield, has a tighter min/max damage ratio, which is preferable to many including myself. As far as needing Life Tap, I'd pick Last Wish over Grief any day for Ubers since it gives you all the CB you need as well as Life Tap, Fade, and a Might aura for anyone else you may be playing with. The few extra seconds it takes to finish them off is pretty negligible if you ask me considering a decent Smiter setup that can afford a Last Wish should be virtually invincible in Tristram once Tap triggers anyway.
     
  9. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    I agree with most everything you said, but i disagree with that:

    1st. with Exile you should get over 30k Defense, if you dont, you are doing something terribly wrong.
    2nd. Just put on Goblin toe + 10CB Gloves + Exile + Grief and use Treachery to Fade and you will kill alot faster, true that with Last Wish you could be safer, but only if u could hit the last breakpoint, considering you are talking about Smite with Last Wish you wont be able to do so (forced to use highlords and 20 ias gloves on top of ur Fana), therefore the chance to tap is reduced, and your safty is reduced too.
     
  10. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    Yeah by easy I meant this is like a minimum with virtually the lowest defense setup on other gear. Non-upped items and maybe normal to exceptional runeword armors, etc. Even with that 20k should be cake, but since most Paladins rocking an Exile would have things like Crown of Ages, a nice elite Archon Plate armor and other high-defense goodies, 30k or much more is very attainable.

    I disagree that hitting the last breakpoint is a must. With a Smiter that used only Griswold's set, Dwarf Star/Raven Frost/Thundergod's for absorb, Drac's and not-quite max resists before Conviction, I have survived without much trouble in UT without getting to that last point.

    Having used a Last Wish PB with much better gear and still not hitting the last BP (opting for Mara's over Highlord's and Steelrend's over IAS gloves) I have survived with ease with the base IAS and Fanaticism alone. AS safe? Obviously not, but to say you are ONLY safer with 40% off-weapon IAS added to Fana I think is a bit of a stretch.

    (Note: Steelrend's was used as an experiment at one point to tested any added damage and to get closer to 100% CB. It wasn't my main pick usually and I DID go with IAS gloves any other time. But again, I don't think that hit the last BP either if I remember correctly, and I did okay.)
     
  11. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    Think of this aswell. Regarding using Last wish.

    Its the most expensive runeword in the game. Period.

    Why use it on a character, that is meant to farm?
    Its comparable to get a perfect Spirit Monarch for my blizzard mfer!


    Imo, its such an expensive item that, what ever stats/mods it gives you, its not suitable for the purpose of the character.
    Unless, ofc, you are planning to do something else aswell with it. Or feel like spending too much on his gear.
     
  12. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    For me hitting the last BP is a must and i have several reasons to think so.
    First of all i may agree that pvm you dont need 6 frame Smite,but in Pvp is a must.

    We talking about Trist and if you face nasty bosses like Uber Meph, hitting the last BP is a must, because,even with 5 k life, with tgods with max light res ect he can take you down in 2 seconds if you dont tap quick, and tapping has to do with IAS, if you have lower IAS the actual chance to tap is less, therefore Meph could kill you if you are not careful, the other Bosses can't kill you even with lower IAS thats true, when i do Ubers soon as i enter Trist i charge to Meph, Baal and Diablo and i kill them in 40 secs with the set-up i mentioned above.

    Last wish > Grief ONLY if u dont have Crushing blow and Life Tap from items, otherwise Grief eat it for breakfast and you need only a Lo to make it, and dont waste 5 HRs rofl
     
  13. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    I completely agree. I only use a Last Wish on him if I am already filthy rich into the ladder season and have already acquired a Last Wish. I never kill myself over trying to get one early for the sake of UT. I pick it mainly because it allows me to not have to use Gulliaume's and Gores for all that CB and instead I can use something like Shadowdancer (hey, lots of dexterity and hit recovery is good for more than just Assassins!), Aldur's, or Treks and Andy's or CoA. (Aldurs + Andy's in particular is a nice combo since, aside for the great life bonus from Aldurs, it also makes up for the -fire resist from Andy's as I always hated wasting such a great slot for a Ral.)
     
  14. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, im an Uber Smiter, but i guess i can do PvM too. But the most impressive part about Last Wish is the Crushing Blow. If you get 100+ Crushing Blow in total, will it always take effect?
     
  15. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    100+ or 100%...because anything over 100 is a waste...and yes, you will always trigger CB with 100%.
    May i ask why you need so much Crushing Blow, do you think with 100% you will kill faster :D?
     
  16. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    I dint know, i just think its cool. Also, wont i be doing more damage each time? I could kill Baal Twice as fast
     
  17. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    no, u will kill him twice as slow, u need to understand how CB works :)
    I try to explain simple...CB will reduce the enemies life by %.
    1.Lets say u use perfect Last Wish PB and goblie toe = 95% CB. This mean 95 of every 100 hits u trigger CB.
    With Last wish BP you will have 7 frames smite 3.5 atack per second, this means in 1 second u do 3 hits and u triger CB with each hit.
    Lets say for 10 seconds you do 10 X 3 = 30 hits (every hit trigger CB)

    2. Lets say u use Grief PB and goblin toe + 10 CB gloves = 35% CB. This mean 35 of every 100 hits u trigger CB.
    With Grief PB u will have 6 frames smite 4.1 atack per pecond. This mean in 1 second u do 4 hits and the chance to trigger CB is 35% for each hit. 35 of each 100 hits u trigger CB. In 10 seconds u do 10 X 4 = 40 hits. I think around 17 hits u will hit CB for 10 seconds.

    Grief does 256% more damage then Last Wish. It means every time Cb is done it will reduce the life twice as much.
    Now u can see what will kill faster for 10 seconds 30 hits with alot less damage ot 17 hits with alot more damage...i think its the second opinion. I calculated with Grief 35% Cb u will kill a couple seconds faster then with Last Wish 100% Cb...If the Cb% starts to increase the speed starts to increese too.
    Edit: Grief is always faster, but lets say u have 6 frames Last wish then u need at least 75% CB on grief to be faster, but you do only 7 frames, so it will always be faster :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  18. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Ohhh, I mustve assumed crushing blow works like a ciritcal strike... So why do uber builds always ask for Crushing Blow?
     
  19. Krupa

    Krupa IncGamers Member

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    the effect of CB is completely seperated from the weapon, which is wielded while triggering it (missile weapons excluded).
    CB will always reduce the remaining life of the monster by 25% if there is only 1 player in the game.
    so if u trigger cb with the first hit, u´ll reduce the monsters life to 75% - this does not include the weapon damage u deal.
    if u trigger CB with the next hit aswell, u´ll reduce the life of the monster to (0.75)² = 56,25 % - this again is not including weapon damage.

    so lets assume we´re dealing 7 k per smite with a grief and have 50% CB and 2 k per smite with 100% CB with last wish. Both will smite at 6 fpa (last wish needs 8 off-weapon ias to reach the fastest attack speed with lvl 21 fana)
    also we assume the ubers have 600 k life:

    with grief the life might drop like this: 0. 600k, 1. CB 443k, 2. 436 k, 3. CB 320k, 4. 313k, 5. CB 227.3k, 6. 220.8k, 7. CB 158.6k, .......
    with last wish it will drop like this: 0. 600k, 1. CB 448k, 2. CB 334k, 3. CB 248.5 k, 4. CB 184.4k, 5. CB 136.3k, 6. CB 100k, 7. CB 73.2k, ...

    one could calculate this to the end but i´m too lazy to do so. my guess is grief will win out in a one player game. games with multiple players in it is a whole nother story. last wish will deal due to the CB (25% of the monsters p1 life) a lot more damage in the beginning, so that grief will not be capable of making this up at the last sliver of life with raw dmg, as it does for P1.

    i´ve tried both setups on ladder, both work wonderful ofc.

    edit: well i got curious an put it in an excel sheet

    the sheet is assuming that while the monster has 1.200.000 life of 2.400.000 life remaining, cb would take 25% of 600.000 p1 life and not 25% of 50% of 600.000 life. i´m not sure about the cb mechanics in this case. also i was assuming cb damage is dealt before the weapon damage, which might not be the case. also this calculation does assume cb is triggered every odd hit with grief. it might be that in practice one would not trigger cb the 1st, but the 2nd, 3rd and 4th hit.

    [TABLE="width: 400"]
    [TD="width: 80"][/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 160, colspan: 2"]p1[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 160, colspan: 2"]p8[/TD] [TD="class: xl66"][/TD] [TD="class: xl65"]grief[/TD] [TD="class: xl65"]lw[/TD] [TD="class: xl65"]grief[/TD] [TD="class: xl65"]lw[/TD] [TD="class: xl71, align: right"]0[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]600000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]600000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2400000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2400000[/TD] [TD="class: xl71, align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]443000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]448000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2243000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2248000[/TD] [TD="class: xl71, align: right"]2[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]436000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]334000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2236000[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]2096000[/TD] [TD="class: xl71, align: right"]3[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, align: right"]320000[/TD] 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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  20. Benkovsky

    Benkovsky IncGamers Member

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    Yes, it does.
    It reduces the life not by 25%, but by 12.5% , considering u are talking about Uber Diablo/Baal. They have 50DR so its 6.25%.

    Uber Mephisto/Diablo/Baal

    Level: 110
    HP: 650,000-660,000 [Average- 655,000]
    Mephisto %DR: 20%. Crushing Blow- 12.5% *0.8 (-20%) = 10% [1/10]
    Diablo/Baal %DR: 50%. Crushing Blow- 12.5% *0.5 (-50%) = 6.25% [1/16]

    Last Wish setup:

    (46+108+0) * (1+4.5+1.15+5.09+3+2) = 154*16.74 = 2577.96(2,577)

    Raw-damage vs Mephisto: 2577*0.8 (-20%) = 2061.6 (2061)
    Raw-damage vs Diablo/Baal: 2577*0.5 (-50%) = 1288.5 (1288)

    Grief setup:

    (46+108+400)* (1+4.5+1.15+5.09+0.2) = 554*11.94 = 6614.76 (6,614)

    Raw-damage vs Mephisto: 6614*0.8 (-20%) =
    5291.2 (5291)
    Raw-damage vs Diablo/Baal: 6614*0.5 (-50%) = 3307

    Damage difference ratio: 1:2.56. Grief is 256% more efficient, raw-damage-wise.

    Last Wish smite sequence vs Diablo/Baal (Total HP -6.25% -> 'NewResult' -1288 -> HP remaining)

    Code

    Smite #1- 612774.5
    Smite #2- 573188.0938
    Smite #3- 536075.8379
    ......
    Smite #53- 1480.815787
    Smite #54- 100.2648003
    Smite #55- 0.


    Grief smite sequence vs Diablo/Baal (Total HP -6.25% [15/20] -> 'NewResult' -3307 -> HP remaining)

    Code
    Smite #1- 651693
    Smite #2- 648386
    Smite #3- 645079
    Smite #4- 641772
    ......
    Smite #49- 6507.714331
    Smite #50- 2793.982185
    Smite #51- 0.

    This is based on 100% CB on LW and 75% CB on Grief ( when both are 6 frames )
     

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