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Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by Doppel, Apr 29, 2012. | Replies: 47 | Views: 5688

  1. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    So, i'm playing a bit with the values found on the DiabloNut website and i get back numbers which are completely ridiculous when i make some calculations with them. Like 7 APS and in the case of the Barbarian using Frenzy even 10 APS and potentially more. I mean, what is going on?
    If these values are more or less representative of what we'll see in the game, then do you think there might be a cap on how fast skills can attack?
  2. Torian

    Torian IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    Could you please post the calculations behind these results?
  3. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    Sure
    Two daggers (1.5 APS) both with the mods 0.25 APS and 25% IAS
    1.25*(1.5+(2*0.25)) = 2.5 APS
    plus 0.45 APS from jewelry = 2.95 APS
    165% IAS from non-weapon equipement + 15% IAS from dual wield + 15% IAS from Weapons Master + 25% IAS from WotB + 75% IAS from Frenzy = 295% IAS
    thus
    2.95*3.95 = 11.6525 Attacks Per Second !!!
    This is ofcourse the most extreme example, but still even half that would be insanely fast. (I shiver at the idea of some unique armor pieces possibly even having + APS)
  4. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I think the IAS mods replace the APS mods. Doubt we'll see any APS mods in the final game, and any APS currently found by data mining is simply leftovers. At least that makes the most sense to me. Initially they only had an APS stat, but probably realized that it's not any easier to understand and simply doesn't make any sense.

    Then again 165% IAS from non-weapon equipment is pretty insane as it is. I doubt they'll make it possible in the long run.
  5. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I doubt that. IAS doesn't really replace APS just asmuch as ED% doesn't really replace a flat damage increase.
  6. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    How did you reach that? The secondary Haste affix (+% IAS) may only spawn on jewelry and gloves, so the max you can get on non-weapons is 68% in total.


  7. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    Then i must've read the Diablonut website wrongly. I also included "armor" affixes since in D2 they may also be included whenever looking at a specific armor piece.
    I think you're right though, so i'll input 68% IAS instead.
    I also made some more errors. For example for some reason i was under the impression swords/daggers gain 15% IAS, when it is polearms/spears instead and then only 10% IAS. lol
    I also think that i have to use the APS from gear in the exact same way as weapon APS, since it doesn't make much sense for them to act differently.


    So then, a more correct assessment would be:
    Two daggers (1.5 APS) both with the mods 0.25 APS and 25% IAS plus 0.45 APS from gear
    1.25*(1.5+0.45+(2*0.25)) = 3.0625 APS
    68% IAS from non-weapon equipment + 15% IAS from dual wield + 25% IAS from WotB + 75% IAS from Frenzy = 183% IAS
    thus
    3.0625*2.83 = 8.666875 Attacks per Second


    I think this should be alright when considering fastest attack in the game.
    Then again i think it's likely we'll be seeing some unique equipment with IAS and possibly APS to.
  8. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    Yeah, as an absolute max (and only with Frenzy mind you) that seems alright, especially since you'll lose damage affixes to get there. Oh how much I want to see a character in action with such an APS. :)

    Although now that I think about it I have a pretty good idea how that'll look. I reached 2.78 APS with my DH in the beta and Rapid Fire looked absolutely ridiculous. I could spend my Hatred in like 2 seconds with it. :)
  9. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I'm sure someone will put a vid of it on Youtube sooner or later. It's not going to be me though, i suspect that gear to be crazily rare and expensive.
  10. skysbob

    skysbob IncGamers Member

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    I am probably one of those that will try and test these numbers eventually. But I can see at least one more flaw. Someone else in this forum pointed out that you won't get the full 75% IAS of Frenzy when dual-wielding...
  11. Kafein

    Kafein IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    my DH on beta was at 2,1 aps and the monk with 2,07 and it was super fast
    on the calculator i was able to get 3,9 with DH but i think is not accurate
    amulets rings weapons and gloves provide aps bonus
  12. AurelianZ

    AurelianZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I'm not sure if you can have APS and IAS on the same item in the same time. 1 mod may exclude the other.

    Plus, I think your formula might be a little bit wrong. Weapon's +IAS% only applies to weapon's basic APS.

    The order is:
    1. Multiply basic weapon APS with the +IAS% on the weapon.
    2. Add every +APS you have (from all the items)
    3. Multiply everything with the total +IAS% on other items and buffs (DOESN'T INCLUDE +IAS% on second weapon!)


    For your example, the APS should be 8.41 or something like that.


    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  13. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    They may have special rules for the item generator to disallow both mods to spawn, but personally I doubt that. There are already affix groups set up for this purpose in the game (for the damage vs. enemy type, Life on hit / kill and weapon proc mods for example, but there are more), but the APS and IAS mods have their own group.


  14. machinus

    machinus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    Where did you get this formula?


  15. AurelianZ

    AurelianZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    beta testing


  16. machinus

    machinus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    So you are guessing. Has anyone verified the formulas from the game code?


  17. AurelianZ

    AurelianZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    That description is more complete than what you can find from searching the game code.

    you are free to try it.
    http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner

    keep in mind that the +15% IAS for dual wielding is not yet implemented





    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  18. zakaluka

    zakaluka IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    You're assuming the raw +APS bonus applies first, then %APS. If so, the two bonuses would scale multiplicatively:
    Total APS = ( Weapon APS + Kings1 + Kings2 + Kings3 ) * ( 1 + Haste1 + Haste2 + Haste3 )
    A haste focused build would want as much of both these stats *at the exclusion of all else* because the benefits would be parabolic. As you gain more Kings, Haste rises in value. As you gain more Haste, Kings rises in value.

    I don't think that'd be a very good implementation.

    It could very well be that Blizzard thought this through, and realized that to linearize stat benefits a little bit they need to make sure the additive bonuses don't multiply anywhere:
    Total APS = Weapon APS * ( 1+ Haste1 + Haste2 + Haste3 ) + King1 + Kings2 + Kings3

    If they do this, there are several benefits from a balance standpoint:
    - %DPS increase of adding +%haste balances slightly downward as your +APS modifier rises
    - %DPS increase of adding +APS balances slightly downward as your +%haste modifier rises
    - Absolute DPS increase, relative to self (haste or APS stat), each increase in stat per budget stays about constant no matter how much you have (in terms of absolute DPS the value doesn't diminish just stacking 1 or the other)
    - Summarizing all that, builds centered on a slow weapon would benefit more from raw +APS, and high attack speed builds benefit more from %Haste. All throughout the game, no matter what your gearpoint was. And stacking them both to the sky would be an overall loss because both stats place upward pressure on the value of +Damage (both percent based and raw) and +Crit Damage affixes, which you could have added instead of the opposing attack speed stat. The +damage affixes would be desirable unless total number of hits or crits feeds back on your runes/passives somehow (some possibilities come to mind for wizard).

    My problem with d3nut is that he doesn't explain how he knows which way stats stack. Taking someone else's educated guess at face value, it's a blind assumption that person actually thought things through or tested his results thoroughly enough.
  19. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I think it's pretty much a rule of thumb that faster attack speed comes (should come) at the loss of total DPS.
    This is because the effectiveness of so many important factors is directly related to how fast one attacks:
    - resource gain
    - crits
    - cc
    - procs
    Unless ofcourse they normalize all these factors, which would in my opinion be horrible from a gameplay standpoint (since then there wouldn't ever be a reason not to go with the highest DPS = extremely boring linear gameplay).
  20. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ridiculous Attack Speed numbers

    I disagree. You have to consider the fact that while a faster attack may gain resources faster, it also often uses them less efficiently than a slower attack does. For example, a demon hunter with hand crossbows attacking very quickly will regain hatred very quickly, but when he uses Multishot to burn it off, he does less damage per Hatred spent than the demon hunter using a 2 handed bow but who cannot regain Hatred as quickly. They both benefit from different Hatred generation strategies; the hand crossbow user benefits from Hatred per attack, while the 2 handed bow user gains a greater benefit from hatred per second generation.

    This carries over to crits effects; the hand crossbow using demon hunter may proc or apply critical damage more often, but the two handed bow using demon hunter gains a greater benefit from passives like Sharpshooter because he attacks and crits more slowly.

    The best argument for faster attack speed over slower attack speed probably lies in things like Entangling Shot; a free/resource-generating attack that is also crowd control. The faster the attacks, the faster one can apply crowd control. Blizz has said that the different routes are more or less balanced (though with different play styles) so it remains to be seen how they did this. An increase in actual DPS of the slower-attack-speed route would help to counter this.


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