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Rend: Let's talk about it

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by DarlosND, Aug 22, 2012. | Replies: 41 | Views: 15321

  1. DarlosND

    DarlosND IncGamers Member

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    So now that Devil's Anvil doesn't really work (believe me I tried), time to look for new fun builds that aren't WW/Sprint. So, I've turned my eyes to the new Rend. I've been using it with the Blood Lust rune. It certainly does some serious damage, and gives you some serious health to boot. One could theoretically make a build based on staying alive just with just that combination. Thing is, the health you get back is based on how much damage you can get Rend to do, so pumping up its damage as much as possible is a must. The first obvious thing is that this would probably favor a 2H weapon, especially now that they can roll some really impressive stats. The next obvious thing would be any buff that increases your raw damage, like Marauder's Rage, Berserker Rage, Weapon Master + Sword/Dagger, Insanity, Punish, and Maniac.

    Beyond that though... there are some things I seriously don't understand about Rend and bleed damage. Can Rend even crit? Even on the initial hit? I kept trying to hit things with Rend with Overpower on cooldown to see if its express cooldown would trigger, but it never did, even on Rend's initial hit. Either Rend doesn't crit, or its crits just don't proc any on-crit effects. I didn't really test it with any other on-crit effects like Battle Rage runes, but I don't have high hopes for them. At any rate, Overpower doesn't play well with Rend. Worst case, crit isn't any use at all with Rend even for the sake of just increasing its damage. That'd be a bold claim though. Can anybody confirm whether or not Rend actually crits at all?

    Oh also: if you use Rend, and then increase your damage before the bleed runs out, does the rest of that bleed effect do more damage? Or is it only based off of the damage you did at initial hit?

    Of course, Rend could also just suppliment another build. I was originally going to add it to a Devil's Anvil build, but obviously that's not going to happen. Something you could do is add it to a WW/Sprint build, possibly replacing your primary with Rend. Since rend costs 20 fury just like sprint, you could start the build off by hitting with the normal attack through hitting the button you have Rend set to. Then when you think you have 20 fury, pop Sprint and run through the enemies to get some tornadoes going, and then go from there. Then you could stop every 5 seconds and throw down a Rend, increasing the damage of that build by quite a bit. You'd also have your pick of runes since obviously LoH is already healing you (though more health never hurts, if you think you need to be more defensive).

    With a SS/Weapon Throw/Spear build, Rend doesn't seem like it would be a great help since you'd spend most of your time away from enemies. I think. At least I know I don't stand right in the middle of enemies much when I use SS + Rumble, since I kinda want them all to one side of me.

    Rend feels like a potentially powerful tool now. It'd be nice to figure out how to optimize it.
  2. Diehard

    Diehard IncGamers Member

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    I used Rend fairly extensively in 1.03. My read on the mechanic is that the damage is generated on the initial Rend hit and then simply applied over the duration. Given that, I don't think changing your damage modifiers mid-bleed will do anything as the game already figured out how much damage was going to get done when you triggered Rend.

    It can definitely crit even though the damage numbers never have the crit highlight color - just test it a bit and you'll see every so often one of the opponents will be ticking for a much larger value. The crits come on the initial hit, not tick by tick, so if you've got a tough enemy gushing blood from a Rend crit, don't reapply Rend too early or you may have your crit bleed overwritten by a regular bleed.

    I didn't use it with any "proc on crit" effects so I'm not sure what the synergy is with those kind of abilities... though I'm really hoping it can work with BR: Bloodshed as that combination has a certain gory appeal... ;)

    Anyway, I'm really looking forward to using Rend in 1.04 (tomorrow night, barring any unforseen catastrophe). It was viable, though not spectacular, in 1.03... with the damage boost it should be very powerful now.
  3. imthedan

    imthedan IncGamers Member

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    Would a 2h build around Rend and Revenge do well? I just started to do the WW/Sprint build and it works pretty well, but it feels like a gimmick build. I also prefer 2h builds and really want to do one.
  4. Skuabbles

    Skuabbles IncGamers Member

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    I've always liked Rend, even before the damage buff that came along with 1.04. Leveling from 1-60, I had a blast jumping in with Leap - Iron Impact, using Ground Stomp - Wrenching Smash and then following that up Rend and then Cleaving everything into submission. I always appreciated how I could pop Rend for the initial blow and continue to do damage with Cleave while it ticked away.

    Then Inferno happened.

    Before double tornado was even a thing, I pretty much got pigeonholed into the same basic set of skills that everyone ended up using, i.e. Frenzy, Revenge, War Cry, Leap Attack, Ignore Pain, etc. Spending millions on gear and stacking vitality and all resists I managed to clear Act 2 Inferno with close to 1000 all resists buffed, about 25% block, and a measly 8000 DPS.

    With the Inferno damage nerf and the inclusion of ilvl 63 drops in Act 1 and 2 I began gearing my barbarian for Act 2 glass cannon speed clearing (sadly no additional MF). Before I took my hiatus, I was using Frenzy, Revenge, War Cry, Battle Rage, Leap Attack and Wrath of the Beserker, with at least 2 damage passives (Ruthless and Weapon Master). I peaked at 75k DPS, dual wielding and fully buffed (Wrath of the Beserker not active). Clears were fast, but I was getting bored. Act 3 was somewhat doable but was slow and I died a lot more (resists were now only at 400-500). It seemed like Act 2 was more lucrative and safer due to the sheer speed of my clears.

    1.04 has brought me back! I enjoy the paragon system, it gives me a sense of progression beyond finding a couple of sellable items per magic find run. Back to the subject at hand, Rend with Blood Lust is very viable for maintaining health and has actually replaced Revenge as my primary life leech skill. Here's my current setup:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#bcXYRk!ZYb!YZaZac

    Currently I'm dual wielding with heavy emphasis on crit and crit damage. I have negligible life on hit (~300), 2.7% life leech from my belt, but maintain my 75k dps with Battle Rage up. I'm floating at about 45k health, 7k armor fully buffed and 400-500 all resists, so I'm pretty delicate. However with my new Rend build I was able to clear up through Azmodan with not too many deaths. From the beginning of Act 3 to Siegebreaker, I would die once every 3-4 elite packs. It was a bit harder after that and I began to die after every 2 elite packs (on average). I imagine this build becomes even more viable once a decent 2-hander drops for me. I think I'm about 200 all resists away (while not sacrificing DPS) from absolutely facerolling my way through most of the game's content.
  5. fourpack

    fourpack IncGamers Member

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    yeah, I liked rend early on, but it ran out of steam: definitely time to try it again.

    appreciate it if someone would remind me though: I thought DoTs like rend were based off DPS, not weapon damage, but I'm guessing with all the talk of 2H rend builds above I'm mis-remembering, and it runs off straight weapon damage?
  6. DarlosND

    DarlosND IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, I considered doing Leap and Wrenching Smash together, but I kinda don't want to give up WotB. Might give it a shot though. Hey, leap can beat CC effects now, heh. The major reason I like WotB is because of the fact that it ignores CC effects. It always bothered me that Leap had no effect against them when Furious Charge did...

    The annoying thing about crit only being determined on initial hit with Rend is that you're either getting big damage or not getting big damage for 5 seconds. Which is a bit unreliable if you're trying to get health off of Rend. With a rapid-hitting attack the damage at least evens out over a relatively small time frame because normal and crit hits are dispersed throughout. So, I'm still kinda wondering if a build based on Rend would benefit more from just high base damage, rather than crit chance and crit damage. I mean, I guess you could argue that you could just keep rending until one of them crits, and then wait 5 seconds. But we have no way to immediately see if we're critting with it since yellow numbers don't come up. Ergh.

    Oh, here's a question: when you're using Berserker Rage and your Fury is maxed out and you use Rend (or any fury spender for that matter) does the attack get the benefit of Berserker Rage? Or does the game essentially remove the Fury before figuring out the attack's damage? It'd be kinda crappy if fury spenders literally could never get the benefit of the damage buff. But if they could, Rend would be the ideal choice since you're only using it every so often, meaning your fury would often be full when doing so.

    Also as much as I like Cleave, I also kinda like Bash + Punish just to make Rend that much stronger. Though you're also not hitting as many enemies between usages of Rend. Hrm... augh why did they have to nerf Anvil's proc rate so hard!

    @Diehard: Yeah, Bloodshed seems like it might be fun to use with this. Assuming it actually works. Also don't forget Slaughter on WotB. And maybe Rupture on Cleave, but that only works when something actually dies, which doesn't really help against elites. Or with making Rend stronger.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  7. Insicor

    Insicor IncGamers Member

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    I've been playing around with Rend and Blood Lust and it's real good. The amount of life I get back using a 1200+ 2hander with 1000 life after kill is absurd. I'm getting healed for ~2000 at a time when fighting crowds.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  8. Buran

    Buran IncGamers Member

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    Rend damage doesn't stacks if you spam more than 1 attack over 5 seconds on the same group of foes? Then that drawback and the short range -outside the first rune, Ravage- makes compromises the skill usefulness. A Fury spender must let you spam as fury as you fill, imo.
  9. DarlosND

    DarlosND IncGamers Member

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    I don't think every build that uses fury necessarily needs to just be blowing it constantly. The nice thing about rend is that it wouldn't require Into the Fray or anything like that.

    That said, that extra fury does kinda feel a bit wasted. I just suggested in the Bash + HotA/Smash thread that Rend + Bloodlust could be used in lieu of one of the defensive skills. Also this could potentially play nice with a high fury generating Weapon Throw build... assuming you want to have weapon throw and get close to enemies anyway.


  10. DarlosND

    DarlosND IncGamers Member

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    Okay, so I managed to bag a really decent 2H mace for around only 1 million gold (this thing literally boosted my DPS by over 20,000 compared to my previous dual wielding. Nuts!), and I'm using it with Rend + Blood Lust. It is working SO well. I get so much health from Rend. I have no LoH or Life Steal to speak of (probaby part of the reason why the mace was cheap) and I manage to largely stay alive. Attack speed means nothing if you mostly rely on Rend since you only use it periodically anyway.

    My stats: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3964/screenshot000he.jpg
    Hammer (and the rest of my current equipment): http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Darlos9D-1369/hero/12590173

    It's pretty fantastic to leap into the middle of a bunch of of enemies, throw down Rend, and then just swing for the hills. Marauder's Rage really helps up the damage (which in turn ups the life steal), and WotB + Insanity just destroys elites while keeping you alive even harder. I'm actually feeling like a legit Barbarian for once.

    I'm happy that this seems to be a viable endgame build even with no LoH. I kinda hated being reliant on LoH.

    As time goes on I'll have to fiddle with equipment, maybe eventually allowing me to replace my primary with another fury spender that I can keep using indefinitely, between Rend swings.
  11. Insicor

    Insicor IncGamers Member

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    I more or less run the same build and can pretty much demolish Act IV easily. No LoH either, although I do have some health regen.
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Genotype-1597/hero/797838



  12. Buran

    Buran IncGamers Member

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    Tried the build this morning, at Act II using my 37hp/6200armor/30k dps main barb (AR 950 buffed) http://eu.battle.net/d3/es/profile/Buran-2786/hero/2010446 ,with three different runes: Ravage, Blood Lust and Blood Bath.

    Ravage and Blood Lust worked fine, both very useful; Ravage does wonders against large packs of enemies, and due I still use Revenge my survability was good -at least for that act-. Blood Lust enhances a lot the tanking endurance under heavy stress factors (arcane, molten, desecrator...) ; defensively isn't as good as old Overpower but offensively outpaces it even without being a spamable skill at all. Due that, fury wise, the build is very friendly in terms of resource spending. Blood Bath isn't as interesting, doesn't work as nicely as the Exploding Palm + Burning Essence from the Monk repertory.

    I think that will keep this build as my main now, thanx for the guide! :)
  13. thewoodshed

    thewoodshed IncGamers Member

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    I just had a 1300 dps mace drop with 5.8% life steal that I put on my enchantress that I may have to try. Issue will be lost crit damage. I wish it was. 252 str instead of int.
  14. Skuabbles

    Skuabbles IncGamers Member

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    Alright, messed around with different builds with Rend and finally settled on one that works for my current gearset. Here's my profile:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Skuabbles-1208/hero/70483

    As you can see my only legitimate sources of regaining life is Rend - Blood Lust and the 2.7% lifesteal on my belt, but it really is going quite well. Currently with Battle Rage and Warcry up I have about 69k DPS, 600ish resist all and 9k armor. I found that because of my DPS I could drop WotB and the complete mobility of both Furious Charge and Leap really keep me out of the bad. Mobility is really key here since I'm farming Act 3 and there are parts that can have you pretty well cornered either through unit collision or walls. With Charge and Leap, neither is an issue if I manage my CDs correctly. The Merciless Assault rune has proven even more useful than the lifesteal alternative. It allows me to use Charge freely to escape and to chase. Actually, good chase mechanics have proven invaluable to my survival. I can't think about how many times I've been burned down by other ranged units while chasing a runner. I've tried using Overpower, Threatening Shout, WotB, Revenge with all their various runes in my current Furious Charge slot and really see the most usefulness as well as sheer enjoyment with Charge - Merciless Assault.

    I've tried the single target primary skills (various iterations of Bash or Frenzy), and I keep going back to my first love, Cleave. I find it not too hard (even with elite packs) to constantly have at least two targets to hit.

    I screwed around with a 2-hander for a while, and while I'm sure it's viable with huge returns on Rend, I found the slow swing speeds somewhat frustrating when trying to dance around various projectiles and ill effects on the ground. If I find a monster 2-hander with huge stat, crit damage, and life steal bonuses with attack speed as the cherry on top I might give it another go. Oh...and a socket of course. Anyone giving up a free strength Skorn?

    As for now, I finally have Act 3 on farm with minimal deaths, and even those are generally avoidable, i.e. I shouldn't be a dummy and stand in the bad, overextend, or let Warcry fall off. I'm beginning to feel "strong" as a character again and that hasn't happened since Act 2 Hell. And there's actually speed to my farming. I'm blowing through regular packs with breaking stride and I feel like elite and champion packs really don't take that much longer. Nonexistent enrage timers be damned, they wouldn't even be a factor anymore. It's been a long hard road with a couple of hiatuses, but I'm really enjoying playing my barbarian again.
  15. DarlosND

    DarlosND IncGamers Member

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    Cool man. I've taken your build for a spin, but I've made some adjustments to it. I replaced Tough as Nails with Berserker Rage, since apparently if you have max fury and use a fury spender (like Rend) you actually get the benefit of it. Then I replaced Cleave with Bash + Punish, because quite frankly if you want to deal with crowds you can just Furious Charge them to death, and Bash + Punish is much better for taking out tougher single targets (plus feels better with a brutal 2H mace, heh). Also if you can keep Punish up, it just makes Rend that much better at dealing damage and giving you health.

    With all my damage buffs up at once, I get 99k damage.

    EDIT: Okay maybe dropping that defensive passive wasn't such a good idea, heh. Still, without Berserker Rage I get 85k damage max. Also if I replaced Weapon Master with Berserker Rage I could get more damage... but only when I have max fury which is a bit more dicey if I'm actually trading off another offensive passive. So yeah.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  16. Drytchnath

    Drytchnath IncGamers Member

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    First, my profile:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Drytchnath-1291/hero/232276

    Been using Rend since the update and my build absolutely decimates Act 1 with Act 2 being comfortable with a few difficulty spikes when encountering some of the nastier boss packs.
    However, Act 3 is pretty bad. I have little trouble with the white mobs unless they completely corner me and I have Leap on cooldown, but the boss packs always result in a couple of deaths, 1 if I'm lucky, 3 if I'm not. I simply can't tank the damage even with Rend +rotation of my Tank skills. Buffed I have about 6800 armor, 500 AR. I can sacrifice magic find for more defense but I'm not sure if that would be better if the drop quality plummets as a result.
    Loving the build though and will probably take a stab at using Furious Charge instead of Ignore Pain. I also have a few items I'm bidding on that will boost my HP considerably while keeping DPS at around the same level, if not a bit higher.
  17. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Darlos I'd just like to commend you for the Avatar naming scheme :D

    But Rend. Rend is cool. I'm gonna try to incorporate it in my Smash build, for a good comboof Life/hit and Rend heals.
  18. Walo

    Walo IncGamers Member

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    Does anyone know how works rend with bleed on skorn? Can you have two bleed effects on one target from separate sources simultaneosly? Or it will cancel each other out?
  19. BlackAdder

    BlackAdder IncGamers Member

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    i have a very similar build to you Drytchnath, only i have revenge with provocation instead of battle rage.

    My dps is only 47K but with pretty high all resistance, 846, 7k armor and 38k hp. I found revenge to be very important in keeping alive, and besides thats its a really quick attack so you can use it to finish off mobs before they strike you. I usually jump in a big mob with leap, use rend, stand there till my revenge triggers and then use that, the white mobs die to this in like 3 seconds. I die to elites in act 3 maybe once in 3 or 4 elite groups, not so often, though i do use pots relatively frequently and have to kite some of 'em just to recharge a cooldown of leap or ignore pain, but the great thing is that you can rend now and then and still do massive damage while kiting. Drytchnath think you just need more survivability, so if you've got 40/45k+ dmg i think you should swap some dmg for defensive skills.

    Really love this build, made the game fun again :)

    Edit: just found out you can see damage as well on the profiles, seeing as you do only 29k dmg drytchnath i think you're just a long way from the right gear for act 3, my resistances are pretty much double yours, as is my dmg if i take battle rage. You should get some better rings, especially the band of hollow crap is horribly bad . . .
  20. powpowboom

    powpowboom IncGamers Member

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    Just thought i would chime in here as i've also played around with similar builds and i can say that Rend is fabulous...even as a dual wield barb.

    I was experimenting with this build on the weekend on really liked this:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WScXkR!ZYV!cZZaca

    I chose frenzy because i'm dual wield and wanted a good way to use my loh...and i also find having two escape skills (charge and leap) to be invaluable. The two escape skills can also be used offensively. Charge/merciless assault is still a viable tool against mobs even without Sprint. I found Charge --> Rend --> Charge to work quite well

    My only dislike is the range on Rend, but I guess it would be too OP if they extended its range.


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