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Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by larcatnecro, May 13, 2012. | Replies: 45 | Views: 3808

  1. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    Anyone know if dam redux will lower the effect of regenration?

    Multiplicative dam redux, as everyone knows, has diminishing returns. However, the returns do not diminish when coupled with things like healing and regeneration.

    I'm wondering if the big regen numbers possible, coupled with the massive redux possible are going to lead to some chars that are idiotically tough.

    All calcs based on this build: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner/22272

    Using the armor formula from this thread and including the 25% armor bonus and vit-to-armor bonus from passives, I get 89% redux from armor alone.

    That leaves us with .11 incoming damage per point.

    The resist forumla is the same, as far as I know, from this thread. That gives us a resist overall dam redux of 73%.

    That leaves us with .03 incoming damage per point.

    Next, we factor in the 90% damage-to-health (no need for a formula, it is self explanatory.)

    That leaves us with .003 incoming damage per point.

    Finally, we factor in the innate 30% redux the barb has.

    Our final number is .0021 incoming damage per point (should note here I am not factoring the additional 20% resist against elemental the build has.)

    With .0021 incoming damage per point, and 3000 hp/second regeneration, this build tanks:

    1,428,000 Hp/second passively.

    Revenge heals an effective 650,000 hp per monster struck with it.

    Admittedly, it requires kinda good gear ;)
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  2. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    I wanted to put this more simply:

    There are a huge number of ways to heal passively in this game: The healing benefit from these methods effectively means that multiplicative damage redux does NOT have diminishing returns. If you have 90% DR from armor or resists, and you are regenerating 1000 hp a second from gear, you are effectively healing 10k/second.

    Some games deal with this issue by making DR also reduce healing amounts, but AFAIK, Diablo 3 isn't doing so, which means that some crazy tough builds are possible.
  3. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    it's what makes +%DR better then +%HP in comparison for equal amounts. Effective healing. Seeing the damage numbers from the inferno mobs I think we should expect to have some huge amount of DR along with HP so I think it'll balance itself out.
  4. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    Play with % damage as heal, high armor and high resi builds/gear load outs coupled with high regen.

    Some idiotic things are possible if my math is right.

    Things like close to a million DPS incoming before you start getting hurt. That sort of thing.


  5. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    %dmg => heal suffers the more DR you get. I still think you'll get hurt quickly and a lot. I bet you need ridiculous amounts of resistance to actually survive a few hits on inferno. I'm certain that Blizz plans around this. you can stack indeed a ridiculous high amount of HPS tho, but that is passive defense as opposed to reducing/preventing the damage actively. How it'll play out in PvP is another issue tho.

    I'm planing my affixes for end gear (ranked by which I want the most per slot), writing down how much +vitality and +HPS is possible, gonna post when I have a total value.

    edit: is it possible to have +vit AND +str/vit on the same item?


  6. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    Armor/Resistances (including physical remember)/%damage as life effectively give you 3 levels of multiplicative general dam redux.

    Maximize those three, then use slots for regeneration.

    The numbers are eyepopping. That passive defense can be mind melting.


  7. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    I would like to see it!

    I find this interesting, why do you think so? The value of it doesn't change as long as the number of %dth doesn't change, I would like to know why you think it does. :nod:

    The only thing I can think of is that you looked at how absolute amount of health returned starts to decline at higher DR (which is irrelevant, but could be misleading).


  8. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    That's what I mean tho and it plays a role. it makes a difference if you get 100 health from a 1000ish hit or if you get 10 from a 1000ish hit. the % may stay the same, but you gain only 1/10 times the effective amount from it, thus making it more and more obsolete the better your damage reduction becomes. it's a passive reduction as it doesn't prevent damage but gains you HP, like HPS does, but HPS is a fix amount and gives the same amount no matter your DR or the opponent's damage. %dmg => heal might have a huge initial advantage but loses with time to HPS the better your DR becomes. that's on paper tho. :)


  9. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Here's the thing you have missed; if you have ten times the DR (10 instead of 100), that means that the health returned is ten times more valuable. In order words, the health returned in EHP is equal in both cases. The only absolute thing about absolute health is that it means nothing (in this case). :thumbsup:


  10. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    it does means a whooping lot as it is connected to DR and needs to be compared with other passive defensive stats. even though the % of dmg => health stays the same, you get less benefit from it.

    1000 HIT (not damage) * 1 DR *0,9 DTH = 900 HP heal
    with 0% DR and 90% dmg => health, from a "1000 hit" you get 900 hp back which is 90% whereas flat 100 HPS in comparison only nets you 1/9 of that amount.

    with 90% DR this changes drastically.
    1000 HIT * 0,1 (=90% DR) * 0,9 DTH = 90 HP heal.
    from the initial 1000 hit (not damage) you only gain 9% as heal, while it stays 90% of the damage. However 100 HPS this time gains you 11% MORE instead of 88% less effective heal.

    conclusion: HPS has the same effect independently. DTH gets worse the better your DR become as it's directly connected to it.
    all that means is that you can start to drop DTH-affixes for other stuff the more you stack DR.


  11. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    I was unaware you wanted to compare it to HPS! They appear to be closely related, but the implications of one being an absolute value and the other being a percentage are huge.


    I should start by saying you have several errors, but don't fret because I'm pretty sure the majority of the people have not looked into the inner workings of DR, regeneration and various other forms of defense-related math objects.

    HPS does have the same effect independently, but the value of it varies exponentially as a function of DR. Meanwhile, DTH never gets any worse or better with DR, because it is not a function of DR. The only thing changing the relative value of %DTH is a change to the percent itself. An absolute change in health changes the absolute value of the return of %dth, but the relative value (%EHP) is never changed as long as the %dth remains the same.


    I'll prove that the value (worth, not amount) of HPS varies exponentially with a simple thought experiment! Imagine you have 10 hps and you have a constant 10 incoming dps. Congratulations, you are immortal! This means that the worth of HPS as DR is either equal to 1 (it could be above 1 in other scenarios, but it means nothing in our case).

    Conversely, if you have an incoming constant 100 dps and 10 hps, the HPS could simplified be said to equal to 10% DR(/s).



    Here's the problem with modeling regeneration! You need an actual incoming dps (swing size and swingtimer) to compare to. The absolute size because the amount of health regen is an absolute value, the swingtimer because regeneration is a function of time (quite literally H per second), and both of them are constantly fluctuating in actual gameplay.


    We can however say one thing about regeneration for sure! Because the health regenerated is an absolute value, it means that the value of 1 health regenerated is increased by your defensive stats. What follows is that regeneration is better for more defensive builds, shield-equipped ToN Barbarians etc, rather than your dual-wielding frenzied "kill before killed" type.

    So let's forget about regeneration for a while and for the moment think of it as an affix of "highly relative worth but definitely better for defensive builds".


    Back to DTH. I don't quite understand why you didn't grasp my previous explanation, as I believe it provided enough clarity. Is it what EHP is that you have difficulty understanding? You are literally using the exact same explanation that I already showed you is a false way of thinking.


  12. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    I think "what's ideal to have as defense" and DTH becomes less effective in a practical manner. we have 6 affixes per slots and 10% DTH can simply be dropped later on if you stepped up your DR and does not need to carry over with every upgrade and can be replaced with HPS on a few items for instance. practical speaking 90% pure global DR is also quite unlikely, tho. the other thing we need to wait for is how DTH actually works. if there is even a split second delay, it means damage from multiple sources simultaneously equals death, making it less reliable as defense stat.

    and by no means is comparing it a "false way of thinking", regardless of effective health. I do agree that HPS does not calculate in the DPS, but that is the point of an independent value, it's independent both ways. all I compare is the practical effectiveness. if DR>X then HPS>DTH.


  13. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    I hate to sound like a broken record and if I offended you I apologize, but it is a false way of thinking because you still haven't realized this:

    It does not get less effective in a practical manner, it always remains equally effective.


    When you're comparing HPS to DTH and seeing the ratio changes, there are three reasons: you're looking at absolute health (wrong), you're looking at DTH and assuming the worth of it changed (wrong), or you're seeing the wildly differing worth of n hps (right).


    So no, it is not wrong to try to compare the two, but the way you approach it simply is.


  14. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    actually yes, I felt a bit offended. x)
    it's a discussion tho, so I see nothing wrong with having a dispute via arguments.
    1 and 2 are basically the same and absolute health is the only thing that matters in a practical approach IF a) your DR is high enough to survive any hit(s) for a second anyway and b) HPS can outvalue DTH due to DR.
    you need 9 affixes to get 90% DTH (it's the max number as far as I know right?) but only 2 HPS affixes to get 645 HPS and more. If a) and b) are given DTH will NEVER heal you and you'll die sooner or later whereas HPS actually heals you. the values do matter in this case as it'll save you affixes in the end.

    I'm totally on your side that DTH is always effective and never loses its effect, but it can be overcome by HPS (or other defense stats) if we compare the effectiveness in connection with DR and the amount of affixes. We need actual numbers to compare them effectively tho. it all depends how much DR and HP we have in the end. Even DR itself has a diminishing return in comparison with Dodge (as does DTH in this case as well). purely practical speaking. why bother with reducing low damage income even further when you can simply out heal it [which is also always active not only when you get damage]?^^

    I do understand your reasoning and and I'm open to examples and discussions, not that you think I'm at stalemate. this is simply my approach on that matter.


  15. SirAdis

    SirAdis IncGamers Member

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    Even with 1k/s healing and 90% damage reduce the monsters in Inferno are gonna be kicking our asses, if a mob hits for 140k unmitigated ( lets say theres a 2sec cooldown ) and you have 90% reduce, thats 14k/2sec, and you're not gonna be fighting single monsters, even if you had 3 on you, thats 21k/s damage ( thats with 0% dodge, which is unlikely, and also it shows how important dodge will be ).
  16. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    that's what I mean we need numbers to be more accurate. the DR itself plays a huge role., avoiding abilities also matter. I think you can have roughly over 3k HPS btw.

    edit:
    according to the hero planer:
    max of everything (at least with witch doctor gear)

    +760 ressist all
    +1483 Vitality
    +75% health ((1550 hp as WD + 1483 VIT*10) *1,75 = ~30k health)
    +2920 HPS
    +90% DTH


    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  17. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    It can get worse......

    http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner/22272

    Not included: Armor from VIT. 25% armor from passive. 30% innate barb dam redux.


  18. zUkUu

    zUkUu IncGamers Member

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    hehe yeah. doctor can also have -40% damage (-20% flat out and -20% when a mob is affected by poison damage), I'm sure we'll need those amounts to a degree tho.

    the problem with having everything weapon dependent is that you only need 1 affix per item to give you almost a maximum possible offensive leaving up to 5 affixes open for defense and utility. apart from the mainstat there is only haste, crit damage and crit chance really.

    as far as I can tell you can also get 100% Immunity against stun, roots and freezes (SRF). needs 10 affixes tho.


  19. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    That is definitely one of the biggest design flaws in the gear system. The Damage to Health affix, generally, should probably go.

    I didn't go for the %total armor affixes here either, which I think may end up increasing your final armor more than the 250%-300% of item affixes, depending on when the stacking occurs.

    Including elemental damage in armor, and including physical damage in resists was also probably a mistake, but maybe necessary to avoid the D2 style one shots.


  20. larcatnecro

    larcatnecro IncGamers Member

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    Try 3k/s healing, and three layers of 80-90% dam redux (armor, resists, damage to health.)

    You are talking about a million effective HP/s passive tanking.


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