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Question from a selffound WD

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Caris, Feb 8, 2013. | Replies: 16 | Views: 1482

  1. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    Inspired by InteNuIgen's thread I set out to start over and made a new WD. I have finally hit lvl 60 and are on my way to paragonlvl 3 working my way through inferno act1.
    Atm my isn't good enough to play much - if any - above MP0.

    I would like to know what the rest of you selfffound-players did about the helm socket. I am torn between a ruby for XP and topaz for MF. Is is smarter to get alot of lvls fast and thus build in MF or shoudl I stack MF (not only in the helm socket but the rest of my gear)?

    @InteNuIgen - thanks for inspireing me :)
  2. SincereX13

    SincereX13 IncGamers Member

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    It is a tough call, I have played most of my Inferno career with a helmet that has no socket. Early on though I did use a helmet with a socket and went with the topaz for MF instead of experience. I always felt I didn't want to sacrifice better items for faster levels. It really is a personal preference though... The faster you level the more MF you get from Paragon. But more MF early on means more items which means faster self found upgrades. The more self found upgrades the faster you kill and find more items. Each side has a payoff it seems.
  3. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    You summed up my thoughts exactly!
    I'm really torn between the two options. I'm not sure if I should stack MF on the rest of my gear either or not.

    What follower are you using?
  4. InteNuIgen

    InteNuIgen IncGamers Site Pal

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    Thanks for the credits Caris :)

    Nice to see another self-found restart. I can tell you how i did, for what it's worth.

    My wizard is currently at paragon 78. I have been using a socketed helm all the time. Running without a socket in your helm, you give up too much IMO. Ordinary levels 1-60 i had a ruby for getting to 60 as fast as possible. Then switched to topaz and started gaining paragon levels.

    I felt what Sincere mentioned, that i did not want to sacrifice better items in order to gain p-levels faster. I stacked my templar with MF gear, i get 30% MF from him, which i believe is close to max. Then, when i hit max MF (i am running MP0 so that is 300%), i started to switch out MF gear to dps upgrades i found along the way, but always keeping my MF at max.

    Example: If i had 280% MF myself, and 30% from templar, then i would cap at 300%, but my "true" MF would be 310%, so then i could switch out a gear piece that had 10% for another which gave me more dps.

    Ironically, i just decided yesterday to switch out my topaz for a ruby again. Paragon leveling is quite slow around the 80's and i just want to hit 80 as soon as possible. The difference between 300% and 278% (which is what i have with a ruby instead, and templar) is not that big a deal.
  5. InteNuIgen

    InteNuIgen IncGamers Site Pal

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    As a side note, i hope we'll get to see regular updates in this thread about your progress :)
  6. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

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    I'm not self-found, but I'm (almost) sure you can make it with Int + socket in helm or int/vit and socket. Imo, crit is only that good for WD if you're wearing a spear, axe or two-hander. The low damage on rest (ak WD knives are awful) makes the low damage crit hit very low. (I.e. My AHed WD has over 100k paper DPS with IAS and stuff, wearing a Manajuma's knife. I count that as 50k damage, so I took away my crit cute Zuni Helm and put in a cheap mempo - IAS, Int, Life% and socket - since I'll have to hit white mobs 2x sometimes, better do it fast instead of relying on "lol crits").

    When you're untwinked, life is much easier when you forget about critical. I managed to beat the game (or the game except inferno diablo) pre inferno nerf stacking int, vit and AR, which is, nowadays, ~MP2 on Act 3.

    As far strategy goes, you want high vit and Ah to have durable pets. While they pretend to be more than meat shields, you throw your skills of choice, each one with advantages and disvantages. If you have any trouble with enrage timers, try Zombie bears.

    If you ever have survivability issues, I suggest you to try Bad Medicine/Vision Quest (reduced cooldown for spirit walk)/Jungle Fortitude. Poison dart/Splinters usually give me the best kill speed and I like to use Acid Rain/Blob slime thing for extra pets, slow burn if my DPS is low or extra radius if it's high. Rain of toads and the corpse spider queen thing can be useful too. The only thing constant in my build is Zombie Dogs, Gargantuan and Spirit Walk, with mixed runes.

    As for pierce the veil, in theory, it's bad - it's better to have more mana and cast "X" twice than relying on pierce the veil - But - if you use skills that don't empty your mana pool often (primary skills, acid rain, etc. while pets tank), it can be good. I.e. - you are using a 2hander slow as hell with 1k LoH and rain of toads - it can work, depending on your Ias.

    Focus on Int, vit and some AR (not much, if you have jungle fortitude). Having Loh or lifesteal is nice against RD, but probably useless-ish after 1.0.7. I killed siegebreaker on 1.0.3/4 without leeching and it went just fine. You need to pay attention to your kill speed, since numbers are completely useless and wrong for WD, imo. You can't tell your EHP just by reaching benchmarks and your kill speed depends on:

    playstyle + (skill you use in most cases*attack speed/weapon min damage) + mana spent + pet survivability/???? (< joking, but not really)

    Zombie bears + Skorn + Mana regen + crits and not much IAS = great kill speed even on MP5
    Firebombs/Acid Rain + "what is mana?" + lots of IAS + Manajuma's = really fast on MP0, forget about MP5 and "look! a 20k damage crit!"

    And both show 100k DPS on paper, while being very, way, different in game.

    In a nutshell: See if you can stand your kill speed and choose skills that work better with your playstyle. Usually, those things determine if that rare is a keeper or vendor trash.

    If you are doing well, but find a brickwall at some point (Cydeaea... Spider), just try again using zombie bears (that hit boss and spiderlings at the same time with high damage).
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  7. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the advice everyone.

    I have killed Butcher last night (still MP0) and I'm halfway to paragon lvl 5. It's going quite good so far, I feel that my killspeed is at a good lvl, I just need more survivability. It's by far better when I play with my hubby (Barb) the armor/resist buff makes a big difference.

    I have switched my helm socket to a topaz and with full stacks I now have 120% MF (131% with the Templar) I'm still looking for more MF items, but well it's a slow progress.

    I'm selling every required lvl 60 item that is worth more than 1500 gold and dust the rest, as I have really high hopes for the new crafting recipes in the upcomming patch. Haven't done any crafting since I hit 60, saving mats and money.

    As for my build. I'm running with a WoS build that looks like this. I decided on the WoS because I feel it has a good killspeed and sustainability and isn't that gear dependent. I have been lucky and have found a really good sword 888 dps, 240 int and 89 vita - no socket though, but you can't have it all ;) 1.4 ApS is a bit too fast though and I run out of mana in the longer fights, as I don't have regen on my helm or offhand.
    So ideally I want a slower Main-hand and/or more manaregen.

    Lowest resist is 220 and armor is 2.2k atm and I feel squishy everytime I try anything but MP0. Don't know if that's because I'm used to more gear and being able to handle MP5+, but I guess I need more armor and resists now.

    Lets see how act 2 goes. Won't be there long, as I hate that place with a passion - already did in D2. :whistling:
  8. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

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    I'll post a write-up about my WD somewhere, soon. Essentially, fast weapons are bad and Attack Speed is paper DPS. I use attack speed because my main skill is firebomb.

    I thought I told my stupid plan. Since I wasn't 1-shoting stuff, I just bought a cheap Mempo to kill stuff in 2-3 hits on MP2. Not only it worked, but it was way better than expected. I expected my enchantress faint, unsummoned the minions and threw some firebombs. My crit damage seems to range from ~23k-230k, thanks to the low minimum damage on Manajuma's carving knife. The game calls it 90k dps. That's why my char works better on MP1-2 than on MP0. Almost no change on kill speed, but better gold/drops. That is why I often stress about kill speed, not about DPS, crit chance, whatever.

    Right now, MP2 seems to be the best spot if you aren't running bears or zero dogs. I consider MP3 easy, but it's a little boring to kill elites.

    For general progression, focus on getting out of act 2 ASAP. If you reach Gohm's door, you can try to run Keep dephts 3, 2 and stonefort.

    On the gear, try to get over 800 vit, 1.5k int (now doable, if you plan to try some new crafting). As for resists and armor, if you use Jungle Fortitude/Vision Quest, try to keep zombie dogs alive (it's ok if they die against 5-10% of the elites, act bosses and exploding things). If they are making it, you will survive. Your damage is ok if you are able to kill a treasure goblin somewhat easily, even f you don't do it quickly.

    For crits, if you get around 25%-30% crit chance, you're good to go. (5%, ~10% from gloves and bracers, ~10% from helm, rings and ammy, scoundrel to fill the gaps). I wouldn't focus on that if I considered my kill speed ok.

    Personally, I would forget about essences for now. MP really affects the drop rates. (I got more on MP3 than on MP2, by a significant margin). I wouldn't trade kill speed or XP for MF. I got some paragon levels asap before stacking MF. Since you are playing untwinked, get enough to see 5-6 affix rares often, since crit, Int, Int+Vit on the same item is very helpful.
  9. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    We made it through act 2 yesterday with relative ease. Tried act 3 and it was a significant increase in difficulty. I found 2 upgrades though and my lowest resist is now 300 and armor around 2300.

    I'm not running bears (don't like the skill much) nor 0-dogs (requires too much gear). I'm sticking to WoS as it gives me good killspeed. I just need a slower - harderhitting weapon, so I don't run oom. I always use goblins as a killspeed mesurement (sp?) and atm I have no problem getting them.

    My plan tonight is to go back to act 1 and try to push for MP1 and farm for some of the new recipes. I think those would gives me a significant boost. Haven't really looked at critchance or critdmg items, but then atm I equip whatever is an upgrade, unless it has attackspeed on it.

    So you really think killspeed and XP > MF? Hmmm might think about that.
  10. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

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    At least for early paragon, yes. I only found sets with more around 250 MF (without NV) and that require too much commitment early on. Paragon levels also increase stats, which is good since it means some extra mitigation and dps.

    Also, I don't run bears or lag-dogs, I just mentioned they're better on higher MPs. As for act3, it gets easier when you reach the keep. I don't know if it will work with WoS, but what I do is leave gargantuan blocking the door while I cast spells (firebombs).

    The increase on difficult is due to the increase on monster level. On MP0, act 3 mobs are mlvl 63. You only get mlvl 63 mobs on act 1 and 2 if you play on MP1. Also, the drops on Ac1 1 MP1 get lvl 63 affixes (aka good items). Running act 1 on MP1 is a good idea, but I would avoid areas with goat javelineers, because the monsters start to hit as hard as MP0 monsters.

    I was "almost twinked" when I first cleared act3 - I got some survivability, 20-30k dps using a rare spear without caring about anything. WD wasn't my main and I didn't want to spend gold on him. The only brick wall I found was Cydaea (Bears kill the spiderlings and hit Cydaea at the same time - it worked for me even without mana regen). Siegebreaker went down easily and asmodan isn't that much trouble if you kill the demon spawners and take your time. Other than spider lady, act 2 was harder than act 3 imo (I hate elite gremelins, elite cave spiders, elite ghosts, elite fast stuff).

    My route on act 1 was: Cemetery of forsaken to get stacks (can be skipped), watchtower (before they move it, now I skip it), Festering Woods, leoric's manor (just to kill the champion packs on the entrance), then Warden+Butcher. Not a 20 min thing, but I had fun doing so (200 hours on MP0 with a whirlwind barb - not double tornado). I believe you'll see plans on prison/halls of agony and will likely get upgrades from warden, champion packs on leoric manor and butcher. The mobs are manageable, barring some crazy rolls on halls of agony champion packs. Also, you can do better crowd control on hallways, which is why I put lots of dungeons on the route.
  11. scwormy

    scwormy IncGamers Member

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    My build and strategy is much like Baron's.

    The biggest variable to my skills is the primary skill. Firebomb (Flash Fire) - amazing Mob skill or Corpse Spiders (Leaping Spiders), decent mob skill, but good single target skill.
    The rest of my setup is Grasp, Garg, and Acid Cloud for damage, Spirit Walk and Dogs for defensive.

    As Baron indicated, completely avoid IAS as it provides no benefit other than your primary skill.
    int, crit chance and crit damage is where you want to focus.

    Now that 1.07 is out, my run consists of

    Skycrown Battlements, Keeps level 2, Stonefort,Rakkis Crossing, Tower of the Damned (level 1), Towerof the Cursed Level 1 -> Azmodan (killing Cydea and Azmodan). Then A4 to Rakanoth. Rince and repeat. Total run takes about 45 minutes. Not the most efficient, but usually worthwhile.
  12. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    I was very lucky yesterday and got the razorspike bracers of intelligence from the SK on my first go. MP1 was tough and it took some time though. So I crafted a few and got a nice upgrade, also got new pants. Now my lowest resist is 400 armor around 2400 and 40k HP.

    I ventured back into act 3 and have cleared up to and including Ghom - mp0. I think I will stay here for a while, do keep/Ghom runs in hope of a few upgrades and some more recipes.
    Don't have the cash to buy the armor recipe - stupid thing that this one can't drop. Only just got 1.5 mill and want to save to be able to upgrade gems etc.

    Still torn about whether or not to use a ruby in my helm.... (just made it to paralvl 7 btw)
  13. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

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    How much MF you have?

    I like the "mantra": try to 1-2 shot weaker white mobs first, focus on MF later. Better killspeed means faster runs. If I was going self-found, I would focus on getting the millions to craft the armor, which can be done in 15-20 runs (depending on the route and on my memories of the crafting costs... :whistling:).

    It's hard to focus on MF because, imo, it's just bad for self-found players early on, compared with recipes. Essentially, you want to find Zuni Chest, boots, helm/ring (for set bonuses) and thing of the deep (huge pickup radius). Sure, you'll find a few sets at a certain point, but the problem is getting what you need. Right now, crafting seems to be a better option. I found lots of gold, enough to craft some armors, but only one green chest piece. Even if I had the chest piece, I would need the ring and boots to have "full power". The big stat rolls on items are just to good to not focus on, even compared with 6-affix MF gear would give you.

    The big thing about MF is selling gear to buy what game refuses to drop. If I hadn't at least 3 alternates I care about, I could have got some money form selling a 2.XX spirit regen inna's spirit stone, maybe enough to get me a crit chance zuni ring. If you aren't using the AH or trading, MF don't give you enough return. I would go for Ruby on helm, but I wouldn't be torn if I got a beastly socketless helm. (I was just checking the OP, I believe this 4-line paragraph is my answer to that question, not my previous 3-4 gargatuan posts... :crazyeyes:)

    Depending on which is your lower resist (fire is the wrong answer, cold is the right one :p), your EHP seems to be good, very good considering self-found. Since you managed to kill skeleton king on MP1 (which is hard, considering the number of enemies in the room) and Ghom, I would forget about MF and try to increase kill speed from now on.

    That means running for paragon levels, essences, recipes and gold. If you can't do it fast, pick up some items on the floor and sell them for gold. Since you already killed gold, it would be nice to reach the tower of the cursed wp, since it unlocks a route with good XP and gold drop rate due to monster density (Arreat Crater lvl 2 can be a little challenging). The rest of content is annoying and a little bit useless, imo... (The only thing useful past tower of cursed WP is the infernal machine recipe - and it isn't that useful...).
  14. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    After several Ghom runs I found the int gloves recipe. Haven't had any luck with the crafting yet though. Halfway to paragon lvl 9.

    I see what you mean BaronScarpia and I'm realy considering now to switch my helm socket to a ruby. I'm trying to get more killpower and EHP to push for mp1 in act 3, but atm my pets still die way too fast for my liking.
    I'm not sure about the armor, it just costs so much and would mean spending all my mony just to buy the recipe. And I can still craft better gloves and bracers for now. So amt I think I spend my money there until I get a nice glove craft. Hopwefully I have found the shoulder and amy recipe in the meantime and who know I might get lucky with an armor drop.

    Got a new offhand with some manaregen, so now I hardly run oom anymore.

    Considering to try out another build to mix things up. Heard alot of good thing about locus swarm and fetishes for low mp farming, but I might need more dps for that (I'm at 24k atm)

    What build exactly are you guys using?
  15. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

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    About the armor: I bought that up because it's hard to find a good armor, but you can focus on everything else before focusing on armor.

    Build:

    I use mostly firebomb and focused on attack speed (my 1-hander min damage is trash, enemies usually survive the first hit, so I focused on spitting firebombs as fast as I can and raised the MP. For some reason it worked).

    Since I don't run on MP0 anymore, RC is "open" (I did MP3 once with Manitou...) . Acid Rain is very good if you are dealing enough damage to 1-shot white mobs, since it covers half screen.

    For untwinked builds, you can use Acid Rain/Slow Burn if your gargatuan can keep the targets in the same place or Lob Blob Bomb for extra pets.

    - LC: Firebomb + Ghost Bomb: The blast radius is bigger than it looks.
    - RC: Open slot. Probably I'll test hex or something, since I don't like secondary skills other than acid rain. I would run Bears if it wasn't completely out of the build.
    - Soul Harvest + Vengeful Spirit: Usually I pop spirit walk, run into the mobs, use soul harvest and get a nice damage bonus. Also, it gives AR (int bonus).
    - Spirit Walk + Honored Guest: Jaunt is better, but Attack speed usually eats my mana when I use my secondary.
    - Zombie Dogs + leeching beasts: they survive.
    - Gargatuan + Bruiser: the stun is really nice, imo.

    - Jungle Fortitude: For higher MP.
    - Spirit Vessel: reduces cooldowns and prevend death on fallen maniacs.
    - Gruesome Feast: I use thing of the deep. Big damage boost.

    If I was going to replace one passive, I would put pierce the veil. Since I like firebomb that much, pierce the veil is actually useful. With other skills, holding the mouse button usually is better. Grave injustice is great, probably one of the best passives, but I use primary skills and let the minions take the damage.

    If you like mana regen, you can use Corpse Spiders/Spider Queen and Vision Quest.

    Fetishes are good, but locust swarm usually requires items with bonus to locust swarm to work. You could try this:

    http://diablonut.incgamers.com/skil...uZV9FK1J1bmVfRSsyMTc5NjgrMjE4NTAxKzIwOTA0MSsx

    (Yep, that locust swarm should be replaced with Zombie Bears...)
  16. PandadudeSP

    PandadudeSP IncGamers Member

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    If you are clearing creeps relatively fast then I'd suggest gruesome feast over vision quest. Self-found you probably aren't running a lot of mana regen to multiply while the 10% mana from feast scales with kill speed (int bonus helps with that aswell). You might also try skipping gargantuan if your dogs can handle themselves, and then you can get Big Bad Voodoo - Rain dance or Sacrifice - Pride to use on elites/champions/bosses where you tend to spam your secondary and might run OOM.
  17. Caris

    Caris IncGamers Member

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    Diablo is dead, even did it on MP1 (para lvl 15 now) as I just moved on from an Act3 farm run and forgot to turn down the MP setting. That lead me to move up to MP2 on farm runs.
    Found some good stuff on my last runs - all for my husbands barb though. IK helm, IK gloves, strength Lacunis and a Grand Vizir staff for his enchantress.... awesome....

    So now I hunt items and mats for crafting. When I play with my husband we run SB -> Azmo, alone I do the keep and Ghom. I'm still missing alot of recipes, but I'm not in a hurry as I haven't craftet the perfect gloves or bracers for me yet. I ended up buying the armor recipe and got an awesome one on my 3rd try.

    Also tried a build with a primary skill, like spiders, toads and firebomb. My killspeed decresed significantly and I went back to WoS as my main skill. I either need more dps (42k now) or more attackspeed or both to run a build with a primary skill effectivly.

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