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Question about Pre/Suffix Generation for Rare Items

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by Clervis, Jun 5, 2013. | Replies: 13 | Views: 4210

  1. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Higher Ilvl enables you get higher level prefixes and suffixes on rare/magic items. Does a higher ilvl also rule out the lower level pre/suffixes?
  2. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    No, obviously not!
    The only thing high ilvl rules out ( usually ) is the chance for low level staffmods. For example it is very hard to find a druid helm with +oaksage because the ilvl range requirements means that it can only drop in certain areas of A5 normal ( iirc ).
  3. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Ok, that's kind of what I figured. That's how it functioned in D1, but I didn't know if maybe the range was just really wide.
  4. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    That is an important thing to know, when you're crafting or similar, and looking for affixes with a certain alvl. You need to use items with an ilvl as low as possible (while still being able to generate affixes with the required alvl ofc) to narrow the range of spawnable affixes, and thereby increase the odds of the desired ones appearing.
    If there were a capoff for low-level affixes being able to spawn on high ilvl items, you would see more godly crafted items, and most players would be interested in crafting. As it is, crafting requires substantial wealth (on a large scale anyways) and in many cases several characters some of which gamble base-items, some collect gambling gold, some craft and yet others collect wealt to buy crafting materials. All in all a practise for the few and determined players.
  5. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Oobedoob scooby dooby benubi?

    I suppose it really stinks going for those high ilvl crafts like amulets.
  6. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    Very true - requires loads of patience and loads of materials before you wind up with something godly. Which is why those items are so expensive. And yeah - it's the crybaby allright :)
  7. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Here's a complicated question. Say I want to get a Small Charm with any two cold damage mods. What would be the ideal ilvl to reroll or farm these suckers?

    <tbody> [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Snowy[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+1-2 Minimum and +2-4 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Shivering[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+3-4 Minimum and +5-8 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Boreal[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+5-7 Minimum and +9-14 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Hibernal[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+8-10 Minimum and +15-20 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] </tbody>
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(27)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(42)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(66)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(91)[/SIZE][/FONT]

    <tbody> [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Frost[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+1 Minimum and +2 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Icicle[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+2 Minimum and +3-4 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Glacier[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+3 Minimum and +5-6 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Winter[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] [TD="align: center"][FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]+4-5 Minimum and +7-9 Maximum Cold Damage - 1 Second Duration[/SIZE][/FONT][/TD] </tbody>
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(14)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(21)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(33)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Small Charms(46) [/SIZE][/FONT]
  8. Krupa

    Krupa IncGamers Member

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    without doing the exact math, i´d say farm a lvl 46 sc for rerolling. it would allow 8 combinations for pre and suffix while also disallowing a lot of high lvl affixes.

    however this is a optimization question that would require actually calculating at which point the added possibility of another pre or suffix is outweighted or outweighs the other possible affixes
  9. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    The major problem here, is that the prefixes have an incredibly high alvl (27, 42, 66, 91) while the suffixes have a relative low alvl (14, 21, 33, 46). So like Krupa specifies looking at the first 2 prefixes only with seriously increase the spawning chances.
    For an ilvl 95 SC (which is what is required to spawn all 8 affixes), the chance of spawning an SC with both a cold-prefix and cold-suffix is 25:33396 (source german affix calculator). The chance of rolling a Hibernal SC of Winter from an ilvl 95 SC is correspondingly 1 in 33396. So you may have your work cut out for you here :).
    On another note: hunting for a specific ilvl can be tricky. There is no way of telling the ilvl of an item, so you will have to rely on area-levels and watch the monster that drops it, to know exactly what ilvl your charm has.
  10. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Alright. I hunkered down and did the math. Thanks for the reference Loke Groundrunner.
    ilvl 95 (alvl 91): 25:33396 (0.0748592%)
    ilvl 80 (alvl 66): 1:1417 (0.0705716%)
    ilvl 60 (alvl 46): 5:7316 (0.0683433%)
    ilvl 56 (alvl 42): 1:1705 (0.058651%)
    ilvl 47 (alvl 33): 2:3431 (0.058292%)
    ilvl 41 (alvl 27): 3:5120 (0.0585937%)

    So it looks like it's pretty much the higher the better, but the rub is, as Krupa said, the chance of other affixes outweighing the need to reroll.
  11. imakeigloospat

    imakeigloospat IncGamers Member

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    It does rule some pre-/suffixes out actually and is a part of the item generation. Blizzard simply didn't use the feature at all but in some cases. There's a column named MaxLevel in MagicPre-/Suffixes.txt which can be used to determine the maximum item level for a pre-/suffix to spawn on an item.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  12. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Okay, here's a question. Is an affix like cruel or other high level affix more likely to spawn on a normal weapon as opposed to an elite level weapon?
  13. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    Not that Im aware of. But it does have a ilvl req, so you cant get it everywhere.

    EDIT: Its a lvl 50ish affix, so not many places for that affix in normal!
  14. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    Well that question is a bit difficult to answer.


    To establish the terminology, commonly used:
    * Affix-level (called alvl) determines the affixes available on an item (ie affixes <= alvl are allowed).
    * Item-level (called ilvl) is a number that may vary depending on where the item was found. An Axe found in normal will have a lower ilvl than an Axe found in NM or Hell.
    * Quality-level (called qlvl) is a fixed number for any given item. Typically exceptional items have higher qlvl than normal items, and elite items have higher ilvl than exceptional items.


    The alvl is generated on the basis of the ilvl and qlvl of the item using the pseudo-code below:

    Code:
    If (ilvl>99) then {ilvl=99}
    if (qlvl>ilvl) then {ilvl=qlvl} ;** see note below
    if (magic_lvl>0) then {alvl=ilvl+magic_lvl}
    else
    {
    if (ilvl<(99-qlvl/2))
    then {alvl=ilvl-qlvl/2}
    else {alvl=2*ilvl-99}
    }
    If (alvl>99) then {alvl=99}
    
    
    *all calculations use integers so there are no fractions at any step.
    ** this new ilvl value is only used for the duration of this calculation. The ilvl value that is stored in the items data file will remain unchanged.

    The second line states that an ilvl = qlvl will be used to calculate alvl, if the qlvl > ilvl. If for instance you find a small charm in act I or II, normal (area-level < 20, SC qlvl = 28), the ilvl will be set to 28 while alvl is being calculated.
    Magic_lvl is only present on circlet type items. A diadem for instance will allways have an alvl of >= 103 (qlvl = 85 and magic_lvl = 18), and a tiara allways an alvl of >= 83 (qlvl = 70 and magic_lvl = 13). Thus you can reroll diadems indefinately with the 6 pskull recipy (or imbue them with any level char) and still be able to spawn any affix available on them.


    To examplify the question, lets look at gloves with different ilvls:

    Code:
                                  ilvl = 10   ilvl = 30   ilvl = 70   ilvl = 90
    ===========================================================================
    Leather gloves (qlvl = 3)     alvl = 9    alvl = 29   alvl = 69   alvl = 89
    Demonhide gloves (qlvl = 33)  alvl = 17   alvl = 17   alvl = 54   alvl = 81
    Bramble mitts (qlvl = 57)     alvl = 29   alvl = 29   alvl = 42   alvl = 81
    As you can tell by the numbers, items with a low quality-level are able to spawn higher level affixes earlier than the exceptional/elite counterparts (due ofc to the fact that alvl is calculated as ilvl - qlvl / 2 for lower qlvl items).
    Hope this clears up a little bit about affixes.

    Regards Tom


    #EDIT: Below is the C# algorithm, I used to calculate the alvls:
    Code:
    if (ilvl > 99) ilvl = 99;
    if (qlvl > ilvl) ilvl = qlvl;
    
    if (ilvl < (99 - qlvl / 2)) alvl = ilvl - qlvl / 2;
    else alvl = 2 * ilvl - 99;
    
    if (alvl > 99) alvl = 99;
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013

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