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Query on Armour and Resistances!

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Ganoidyn, Apr 25, 2012. | Replies: 84 | Views: 18937

  1. Ganoidyn

    Ganoidyn IncGamers Member

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    Query on Armour and Resistances!

    As my old sergeant-major used to say, ask a stupid question once and be a fool for a day, keep it to yourself and be an idiot forever.

    So, I thought I knew all there was to know about Armour when Defence was removed as an attribute; and even after Intelligence changed from +health from orbs to Resistances I stayed confident.

    And then my knowledge was turned on its head by people posting about Physical Resistance (some of you may know which thread I'm referring to, in the Barbarian forum) and how it was also affected by Intelligence.

    Armour decreases damage from ALL sources. Strength adds to armour.

    Resistances decrease damage from the specific source they resist. Intelligence adds to ALL resistances.

    Can a kind soul here, equipped with the numbers and/or the necessary math and the patience to explain it at high-school level, please tell me: What, if any, are the defensive differences between an increase in Strength and an increase in Intelligence?

    Thank you very much in advance, Hardrock (hehehe) at al.
  2. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    You rang? :)

    Currently, without skill bonuses, there's no difference between Strength and Intelligence if you care only about defense. 100 Strength will provide exactly the same amount of damage reduction or effective HP as 100 Intelligence.

    Of course, a Barb will still prefer STR for the offensive bonus it provides for him or her, just as a WD or a Wizard will want INT. For the Monk and DH, STR equals INT, if we're not considering skills like One With Everything for example.
  3. Ganoidyn

    Ganoidyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    <3

    Thank you! I was indeed asking where a Dexterity class would want to gear towards after Dex itself.

    I presume that in terms of effective HP, stacking a hypothetical 100 points into Strength or Intelligence is no different from splitting that same amount into Strength and Intelligence?


  4. CrazyCowboy

    CrazyCowboy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Depends on how damage resistance scales.. if it scales linearly then the prioritization of str vs int for monk or DH wont matter... if all that I'm reading is correct.

    Another question... can you dodge any attack? Obviously physical, but what about AoE, DoTs, and other magic attacks?
  5. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    I'm glad I could help and you're welcome.

    That's an interesting question. Like I said, our skills will influence our choices in this regard. For example, if you're using the Hard Target rune of Mantra of Evasion then obviously you're better off by stacking STR and Armor in general.

    Also, One With Everything is good way to effectively convert any amount and type of resistance into an amount of INT that will equal resist * 10, assuming that OWE gives us resist all, including physical damage. The tooltip isn't very clear about this, although I think the tooltip for INT also says resistance against all elements, so...

    Without skills though, STR = INT for Monks and Demon Hunters.

    That's correct. As far as EHP is concerned: (100 STR + 50 INT) = (50 STR + 100 INT)

    Here are the formulas I use for my calculations. They're relatively old, but as far as I know they're still accurate. All thanks should go to pmpch for these.

    Armor as +DR%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot 100x/(x+50L), x=100..12000, L=60
    Armor as +EHP%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot 2x/L, x=0..5000, L=60
    Resists as +DR%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot 100x/(x+5L), x=0..1500, L=60
    Resists as +EHP%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot 20x/L, x=0..500, L=60

    If you look at STR and INT as DR, then you get diminishing returns. However, if you view them as bonus effective HP (meaning how much longer you'll live against a given amount of incoming damage), which I think is a better way look at them, then they scale linearly. Check out the formulas I posted above.

    Good question, here's what I know for a fact.

    You can dodge melee swings, ranged projectiles and ground based AoE for sure and it doesn't matter what type of elemental damage they deal or whether they're spells or not.

    You definitely cannot dodge status effects (for example freeze) from AoE though.

    I don't know if you can dodge status effects from single-target attacks, but most likely you cannot. I also don't know how the dodging of spells like Haunt will work. Can we dodge the whole spell or only individual ticks? Probably the latter, but I don't know.

    Basically damage-wise most likely everything can be dodged. While we're at it I'd also like to mention that blocking works the same way.

    Here's a helpful video Risingred recorded a while ago:




  6. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Are you sure EHP from armor and resistances are additive? I would have guessed multiplicative instead, just like dodge bonus would be multiplicative as well (assuming it adds EHP in the same way). That means 50/50 str/int should better than 100/0 or 0/100 (if my multiplicative assumption is correct), at least from EHP standpoint, as obviously 100/0 str/int would be better for barbs due to the damage boost and likely not a lot less EHP bonus (where "not a lot less" applies when your overall damage reduction values are quite closer to 0% than they are to 100%, which may often/always be the case).
  7. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Hmm, now that I think about it, I'm uncertain. It would make more sense if the DR from STR and INT wouldn't be additive, since otherwise they could become much too powerful. That would of course also mean that EHP won't be additive either. Getting the same amount of STR and INT and increasing them in a 1:1 ratio would result in the highest defense then.

    I didn't actually mean to say before that they're additive, only that 100 STR and 50 INT will provide an equal amount of EHP as 50 STR and 100 INT, which is true in any case unless I'm mistaken. I should have made that more clear.

    If someone knows for sure how the DR from STR and INT stacks, then please don't stay silent. :)
  8. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    I might have something for this weekend!


    For now though I'll say this:

    It is important to realize that Strength and Intelligence scales linearly with EHP in respect to themselves. I should say that they scale linearly with eachother as well, but the difference is that "the k of the two linear functions aren't necessarily equal". They will work very much like the synergy between increasing crit and strike size, where increasing one stat will improve the value of the other stats relatively. For example, if you're at 1000 intellect and 100 strength, increasing strength by 1 point will likely yield a larger sum of EHP gain than increasing intellect.


    What you'll end up with is a number for a ratio, a theoretical equivalence where adding 1 Strength = 1 Intelligence in terms of EHP gain. This might be at a 1:1 ratio, ie you would aim for having as equal amounts of Intelligence and Strength possible. I haven't looked it up where the ratio will be at, but I figure it might "wobble" a bit between levels, since the functions for calculating the DR is using discrete sums of level (you can't be level 59,7886 for example, or you can be but the game won't make that distinction).


    So on a finishing note, it isn't a certainty by any means that you can shuffle around between Strength and Intelligence however you wish and retain the same level of survivability. There will be tiny, tiny differencies. And when I say tiny I very much mean around a hundreth of a percent different.


  9. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Firefox crashed while I was writing my post and this new one will be much shorter than I originally intended it to be.

    If you look at the links I posted above you'll see that the proportionality of the two linear EHP functions is the same, when we're looking for STR's and INT's EHP value.

    If I understand things correctly, if DR from STR and INT stacks multiplicatively in a way that 40% from both sources would result in 64% final DR (which I think is the most likely possibility), then EHP-wise stacking both in a 1:1 ratio would be the ideal, although stacking only one of them wouldn't be much worse.

    For example, with zero Armor from our gear, 600 STR (600 Armor) equals +20% EHP at level 60, but 300 STR and 300 INT (30 Resist All) would equal 21%. However, since we'll always have at least 2000 Armor at level 60, even with white gear, for a while INT should be slightly more valuable than STR.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  10. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    That said, additive would not have been too powerful - It would be much weaker than the multiplicative stacking method. Additive means 50/50 is the same as 100/0 or 0/100, while multiplicative means 50/50 is actually better than either of the 3 in "additive mode".

    Of course, I still wonder if any barbarian will care for int or dex, when you can get resistances and dodge from items in possibly higher quantities, and thus items with dex/int will really be items with wasted item budget that you'd only use if you really don't have any better options. I mean, for example, if they want any wizard/wd to ever consider using an item that simply has resistances rather than int, the resistance affix must provide more defense than int, and thus is obviously superior to int for barbs, monks and demon hunters.

    Seems like primary stats will be something you really want on every single item that can have it, and just about any affix will be better than a non-primary-stat affix, which I find a bit annoying since it simply means there will be a lot more items that are simply obvious junk.
  11. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Dodge is exclusive to Dexterity (and possibly to Legendaries or Sets) and since at the moment Dodge from DEX has certain breakpoints, we'll definitely want to hit one of them.

    Code:
     Dex Range      Dodge% / Dex
    
       0 -  100         0.1
     100 -  500         0.025
     500 - 1000         0.02
    1000 - 8000         0.01
    
    8000 Dexterity = 100% chance to dodge
    We can get up to 1700 DEX from gear, so hitting the 500 mark (20% Dodge) doesn't seem like it will require too much sacrifice in affixes, if any. Especially since all classes gain 1 secondary and 3 primary stats per level, so a Barb, WD and Wizard will have at least 60 DEX at level 60 and the Monk and DH will have at least 180.

    As for INT, I edited my previous post with information that should provide a reason to stack INT instead of STR for defensive reasons. Still, I doubt that will be enough for Barbs to pass up the damage bonus that STR provides for them.

    What's really strange is that the most powerful Resist All affix currently seem to provide 80 resistance against all elements, which equals 800 INT and it can spawn on almost any items. No affix for INT comes even close to that, with the best providing 200 INT. Although the resist affix is a prefix, while the INT affix is a suffix, so ideally you'll still want both.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  12. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    That's a pretty stupid way to implement dodge... They should have just made it like EHP, rather than the silly "each point adds more than the last until you reach X value, at which point value drops greatly and then proceeds to slowly climb back up as you add more dex". I really don't see why they couldn't use a "normal" EHP formula here, since this seems like some kind of "approximation" for one...

    As for defensive affixes, like I thought - The primary stats are really a re-named "attack" stat that has some slight defensive bonus that is tiny enough to make the stat rather worthless for other classes. They really messed up the stats revision IMO, as all it achieved was making items class-specific while unnecessarily complicating stuff.
  13. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Hmm. I'm wondering if perhaps the best way to build a Monk would be to pump Dexterity really high, around 1300 or higher, and then use Seize The Initiative to dump it all over to Armor too. You would get very high Armor and Damage, but I don't know how bad the diminishing returns are for Armor compared to Resistances, or if Resistances are even needed with that much armor.
  14. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    With tier 16 white gear you can get 3045 Armor (~50% DR, +~100% EHP) or 4264 Armor (~58% DR, +~140% EHP) if you use a shield. As you can see, the bonus 1219 Armor of a high level shield raises your EHP by about 40%, so 1300 Dexterity with Seize the Initiative is indeed a good way to boost your defense.

    Resistances and Intelligence are still a good way to become more sturdy, because individually Strength and Intelligence have the same value for DR% and EHP and most likely they'll stack in a way, the raising one will increase the value of the other, as Superstate said. Since all pieces of armor grants Armor and with Seize the Initiative Dexterity gains the Armor bonus of Strength, I think it will be slightly better to stack Intelligence and resists in this scenario.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  15. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    That illustrates why shields will be mandatory offhands when they finally release the PvP patch. There is a profit to be made there.
  16. jokewood

    jokewood IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Unless I'm mistaken, +armor% affixes give more armor than +strength affixes, and +resistance affixes give more resistance than +intelligence affixes. It seems to me, then, that the lack of a corresponding +dodge affix would make dexterity the most attractive primary attribute.


    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  17. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    I didn't do calculations on this yet (way too many affixes would have to be considered), but that seems to be the case, until one of the dodge breakpoints at the very least.
  18. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Is there any base dodge chance? Everyone get's 5% crit as a default, but what about dodge? I guess everyone get some dex when they level up so there should be some base dodge chance for everyone.
  19. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Here's how attributes scale with character level:

    Primary: 7 + level * 3
    Secondary: 7 + level * 1
    Vitality: 7 + level * 2

    Dodge without DEX is zero. Monks and Demon Hunters will have 187 DEX at LVL60, the other classes will sit at 67. That's 12.175% and 6.7% dodge, respectively.
  20. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    To me it seems that you'll want just about anything over a non-primary stat (aka int/dex for barb, str/int for dh/monk or str/dex for wizard/wd). Even if dex is the only way to get dodge, since dex is so powerful just for the damage increase it gives the dh/monk, it can't give *that* much dodge, and thus will likely be near-useless for barb/wizard/wd. For str/int it gets even worse because there are simply better alternative affixes.

    IMO they could just ditch the whole secondary defensive bonus for the primary attributes, or for all I care even change them all back to "attack", as that defensive portion is not really working out as anything even remotely interesting.

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