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PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by DonkeyHunter, Jul 12, 2009. | Replies: 101 | Views: 13103

  1. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    The one big problem I have with HC is that PvP dueling is practically non-existent. Many people including myself are not willing to risk losing our hard earned character over a single duel. In turn, we don't duel, and miss out on a large aspect of the game. I hate softcore because I get no satisfaction out of the riskless PvM, yet I find myself playing it just for the PvP. I hope that in D3 they change this so that you can still play HC but have a separate arena for PvP which you don't die permanently. For those who want permanent death dueling there should be a special toggle that lets you switch between non-permanent and permanent death PVP within the arena. I feel that this would draw more people to HC and would give HC players something to look forward to at higher levels aside from grinding.

    And a sub-idea to the HC PvP idea would be the possibility of having some type of penalty for dying that would make HC dueling more intense than softcore dueling but without permanent death. Maybe you lose gold, exp, items, etc. Ideas are welcome.

    Please comment on this thread and let me know if you feel the same way about this topic.
    :nod:
  2. Abstand

    Abstand IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Perhaps dueling should only bring your health down to 1, once it does, it announces who won. However you would have to be careful about roaming critters and whatnot.
  3. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Ehh, I wouldnt want it to be left up to chance like that. I think if there were to be a penalty other than permanent death, then it should be something tangible and concrete. Something that would make dying in HC PvP sting, but not wanna make you throw yourself of the top of a building. :crazyeyes:
  4. Asrrin

    Asrrin IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    in PvP, everytime you lose and die, you lose one level and you exp is reset to 0 for that level. that would sting and be a substantial loss, but not insurmountable.
  5. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I always wanted this in D2 myself, and thought it could easily be paired with arena games. Of course they never got around to enabling arena games in D2, but since there's not going to be PKing in D3, they'll have to have some sort of arena option for PvP to exist. Seems like it would be easy enough to enable hc to enter arena games without permanent death enabled.

    That said, I want there to be the option for a "real" HC duel. Even though hardly anyone would ever use it with high level characters, the option should exist to make it a permanent fight. In my dream world I'd throw in a mechanism to wager items on the outcome. (The loser item fountains upon death? He won't be needing them anymore, after all.) And while I'm wishing, how about a system to enable "best of 3/5/7" as well, so one lucky shot or lag spike wouldn't determine the whole outcome.
  6. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    It depends on things that we are not aware of. Specifically whether or not group PvP exists, how central to the design of the game PvP is, and how competitive Blizzard intends for the PvP to be.

    As it PvP currently exists in D2 I would say that a no death mode is a terrible idea. HC is supposed to be harder, the word "hard" is in the name of the mode for a reason. PvP should not be an exception. Watering it down would make it less fun... even with a death toggle sort of option it kills significance of dueling in HC.

    Besides, if people had an alternative it'd be much tricksier to get ears from unprepared folk ~_~


    However if Blizzard takes D3's PvP in the direction of WoW's I would agree that an alternative to dying would be almost necessary. I still don't like the death toggle though... I prefer ideas such as PvP only characters for which you either have to unlock gear, or gear is already unlocked, or both. Kind of like GW or WoW on the tourney realms. Not only does it solve the death in PvP option, but it also solves the having to PvM in order to PvP in general problem.
  7. windforce

    windforce IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    terrible idea.

    You carebears just don't quit. HC pvp is the most exciting part of the game. If you are afraid to lose your char then HC is not for you. Blizzard would never implement your idea and if they did I would not buy the game.
  8. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    So exciting that maybe .0001% of hc players actually take part in it!

    Well, that's how it was back in the early days of D2C and D2X, at least. I'd very occasionally see someone powering a level 5 through hell to get quest rewards for their LLD plans, but high level dueling was virtually unheard of.

    I've not played regularly on the realms in several years though, so I don't know how it is now. It's entirely possible that massive duping has made top level equipment so common that regular HC is too boring boring and easy. Plus with all of the improved rushing techniques high level characters are now so fungible that dueling has become much more common? An activity for the idle (time) rich, who can afford the equipment and character loss.


    You're probably right about them not implementing the idea, since they seldom put in things that make major changes to the games that fans all want. Arena games and guild halls in D2, for instance. As for buying the game... please. You're posting in a forum about the game 2+ years before it's going to be released. You, me, and everyone else here is a guaranteed sale.



  9. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Probably the opposite really.
    Greatly decreased player pool, partly because of age of game, partly from TPPK, means that the number of duels you can find are close to 0. That's for both LLD and HLD.

    Gear scanning hacks mean the only duels you will find are from people who have a very good idea of how much damage you can do, combine that with chicken and you'll never get an ear.

    Then back to the player pool problem; after you've dueled everyone who was willing to duel you, they'll decide that they'll never ear you either, and after a week or so they'll give up trying. At this point your number of opponents drops off even further and you'll be lucky if you can get a single fight in a day.

    Since public games are non-existent you can't even go hunting for the clueless and/or PKKs. You could try PKKing yourself, except the PK has been replaced by the TPPK... you'll definitely run into one, but he won't actually be hostile until he's back safely in town.




    But that doesn't matter. HC dueling is STILL the most exciting thing in the game. It's just very difficult to find.



  10. BrotherRatcliff

    BrotherRatcliff IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I've been thinking about this for quite a while, actually posted it in a comment on that PvP guest article I think? Anyway here's my thoughts:

    You know when people duel in movies somehow it always ends up with one person disabled on the ground and the other person is standing over them with their sword. There is that classic "is he going to kill him?" moment where the hero always decides to let the villain live. I think we should have something similar in HC PvP. When you hit 0 hit points your chr falls to his/her knees and puts themselves at the mercy of your opponent, who then gets to exact a penalty on you.

    The penalties could be things like steal an item (at random), loose a level(or more?), disable the chr for an amount of time or take all the persons gold. Just letting them go should also be an option that would allow people to have practice duels between friends with no losses.

    Also when you start a duel players should have a "to the death" option which would enable real hardcore dueling for actual grudge matches and people who just want to be, well, hardcore.

    How all this would work with team duels I'm not sure, maybe one of the options when you slay an enemy would be to bring one of your own team members back in? The idea of placing a specific wager on the outcome of a duel seems really cool to me. I think on hardcore that wager should be in addition to the normal penalty though, just to differentiate it from softcore.

    Overall I'm really exited about the possibilities of dueling arenas in D3 and a real hardcore dueling scene. I, like the OP, am a hardcore player at heart who has been playing softcore recently just for the dueling.
  11. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Great idea. The winner choosing a penalty would be pretty cool, although I think penalties should be milder so that you can duel more often without losing levels, all your items or all your gold too quickly.

    And as for the people who say PvP should stay the same, I say that the players have already voiced their opinion by the fact that barely anyone engages in HC PvP. I'm sure a small minority of people HC duel, but they usually have superior items and just because a few people can spend all their waking time (or ebay money) on superior items doesn't mean the rest of the HC players shouldnt have the oppurtunity to enjoy PvP. I think hardcore is plenty hardcore enough if you can continue to stay alive in PvM and im sure it will be even harder in D3.
  12. Vitamins

    Vitamins Banned

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    No it's not, especially in regards to low-level dueling.

    The reason why dueling is not as popular as it should be in Hardcore Diablo II is because of hacks and the age of D2.

    Many people are not willing to play Hardcore.

    There's always the Softcore option.

    I hate Softcore PVP and PVM because the penalty for your character dying is nonexistent and thus the reward/challenge is nonexistent (for me).

    Let's hope Blizzard doesn't take your advice because I would probably not buy Diablo III if they did. I loved risking my characters playing Hardcore PVP in Diablo II.

    Sounds good on paper, but what would happen is no one would ever use the permanent death toggle for PVP because there's absolutely no incentive. Further, what would happen if I wanted to risk my character in a duel, but my opponent didn't? This idea is just as bad as the loot toggle (loot dueling) in Diablo II. Consequently, the Hardcore community would ultimately be left with Softcore PVP in Hardcore mode.

    Lastly, I don't see why Flux considers the use of the word carebear in this particular discussion comparable to likening somebody or an opinion to Hitler and/or Nazism (Godwin's Law). Godwin's Law states that there's a positive correlation between the size of an online discussion and the chance that somebody will compare the argument being discussed to Nasism or somebody else to a Nazi. However, this doesn't mean that all comparisons to Hitler, Nazism, or careabears are logical fallacies. A carebear to me is somebody who dislikes PVP conflict, challenge, and risk. In other words, it's the videogame equivalent to calling someone a wussy. But isn't that an accurate response to such a query as the one posed by the original poster? I think so. Granted, there are better arguments against the idea being discussed here, but when you get down to brass tacks, I think the original poster is most certainly a carebear.


    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  13. 5zigen

    5zigen IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I would like to add in what kind of game system are we assuming?

    Are we assuming S&E is in the game? If so then chickenhackers are going to be the primary pvping body in hc pvp (as was the case in D2).

    Are we assuming no S&E and no easy portals? Then entering a duel may very well mean that one of the two players WILL BE DEAD at the end. Something that isn't generally the case in D2.

    Finally, are we assuming that 1 hit kills will be the norm? Or are we assuming drawn out battles?

    Now I know D2 evolved to be based around 1 hit kills with things like synergized upped eth steeldriver chargadins. But it would be pretty unsatisfying with a convergence of some of these elements. For example if you couldn't s&e, couldn't tp, and the enemy could potentially take you out in 1 hit, or viably stunlock you until you are dead, then it seems like this would be very unsatisfying.

    Also, what would the incentive be to duel ? none? Some? Ears? Too much of this is up in the air, but I think that a "leave them at 1hp option should be a good one for HC.

    Perhaps better yet, simply have pvp take place in arenas and leave the players alive regardless of hc or sc, this would allow the hc and sc crowd to pvp together, without ever having any risk of comingling items (assuming they couldn't be dropped, which seems like an option.)
  14. sorcererbob

    sorcererbob IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Just my 2cents. I'm a HC player, and I'd like the opportunity to participate in softcore duels.Why should the softcore players get this game option and we should be deprived of it?

    In my opinion, it would be best if I could be hardcore against the environment and softcore against human opponents in the same manner as all other players.
  15. Vitamins

    Vitamins Banned

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    You're "deprived" of the option no more than a Softcore player is deprived of Hardcore PVM.

    While we're at it (following the same logic) let's have Softcore mode with Hardcore PVP.


  16. GuardianHadriel

    GuardianHadriel IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    when losing a HC duel you lose 5 levels...??
  17. Intolerance

    Intolerance IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    I'm with vitamins- this is an absolutely terrible idea. Without the risk of permanent death, you aren't playing Hardcore. If you can't accept the risks associated, then don't participate. If you're genuinely interested in the Hardcore experience, then don't water it down for yourself or anyone else.

    The only concession I'd be willing to make (like my opinion matters) is to allow HC characters to permanently become softcore (no items transferred)- that will allow you guys some PvM thrill until you're ready to start carebear PvPing.
  18. DonkeyHunter

    DonkeyHunter IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    The same people who want HC PvP to stay the same are the same people whom have objections to getting rid of TP PKing and Hostility. In my opinion, HC PvM provides plenty of risk and excitement and I'm sure it will be even harder in D3. For all the stress we go through trying to stay alive we should be able to take a break from it so we can show off our items and skills in a good DUEL! I dont wanna be denied a critical aspect of the game because no matter what anyone says, the thrill of killing another player ONCE is not enough for me to risk all the hard work I put into my character. I know that some people will say that if you dont like it the dont play HC- and to them I say, PvM and PvP are two completely different aspects of the game and they dont both have to be exactly the same. Just because there is permanent death in PvM doesnt mean there has to be permanent death in PvP. If you are soooo hardcore then I agree that there should be a toggle to let people duel with permanent death, but most of us dont want that and we should have options. And dont tell me Blizzard cant make HC PvP a little bit more hardcore through losing exp, gold etc. without discouraging people altogether with permanent death. I think if the general population of HC players were accurately surveyed the majority of players would agree with me.
  19. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    Pking is out, so you would have to agree to have your character killed forever. Anyone sees how stupid this is?

    If Perm death is in with any duel all hardcore mode will be for 99.999% of the players is a mode without PVP as noone is going to risk their characters for a dumb duel.

    So fine by me, leave perm death on consensual duels but you might as well remove PVP from hardcore because thats what it will mean.
  20. windforce

    windforce IncGamers Member

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    Re: PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

    1) You have absolutely no evidence to back this up. And you are clumping everyone into one group that fits your fabricated assumptions. Some of us want pvp HC to actually BE Hardcore. I support removing TP PK, but I am also against removing hostility. Everyone has a different view. Frankly, if you don't want to risk losing your character, then don't participate in pvp. It's not your god given right to have the game conform to your specific preferences.

    yes that's YOUR opinion... maybe pvm alone is not enough of a hardcore experience for all of us. Just because you are too big of a wuss to participate in HC duels does not mean that they need to scrap HC pvp.

    you can. Except you risk losing your character. Deal with it. Back in the day, dueling in HC was very common and a huge part of the game. If you want to play pvp without any risk, play softcore.

    Then don't play HC, or just stick to pvm. And by your logic, softcore players are being denied a critical part of the game which is the risk and excitement associated with HC. Does that mean softcore players should have the option to have HC duels?


    No, it does mean that. PvP and PvM are both part of the same game. Diablo games, and all successfull games in the genre, are not designed to wrap around every single person's individual preferences. There are certain challenges that you have to overcome to play harder difficulty modes (in diablo, HC is the highest difficulty level), and if you can't cope with some aspects of it, that's your problem. Blizzard is not obligated to give a **** if you want a watered down version of HC.

    The majority of players don't know jack **** about game design. Diablo 1+2 were so successful because the old diablo team specifically did not take the advice from all the players who whined and complained about the hardcore pvp system. As I said, there does not need to be a different mode for every single preference out there. If you want to play HC pvm, you can do that. But if you want softcore duels, play them with your softcore char.


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