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Poison necro question about lower poison resist

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by marknorris, Dec 5, 2012. | Replies: 15 | Views: 7301

  1. marknorris

    marknorris IncGamers Member

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    what is the maximum poison resistance any enemy will have in d2 expansion hell? Is there a point at which lower resist and gear such as bramble and trangs set bottoms out as far as effectiveness and gear and skill points could be better placed in other areas such as resist life ect?
  2. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Poison immunities in hell can range anywhere between 0-100 or even more ( immune ). The minions of destruction in Baal's throneroom have 95% poison res, for instance. Broken immunities ( broken with lower resist ) will often be in the high 90s as well. Thus -poison resist on gear is nearly always good to have.

    Btw, bramble gives +psn skill damage not -psn res. Death's web does, though.
  3. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    There are a handful of monster types on Hell that have an immunity that can't be broken. Once your LR reaches level 10 (via hard points or +skills) you’re able to break all immunities that can be broken. It is useless to get a higher level LR than level 10. When breaking an immunity LR works at 1/5th of its original power. Once the enemies resists drop below 100% the -%Enemy Res equipment kicks in and lowers the enemies resists.
  4. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    I disagree. While it is true that Lower Resist suffers from some harsh diminishing returns, it does still give a single percentage point for every point in the skill up to 15, and since poison immunities are rather common, every little bit helps. If poison necromancers had some awesome skill to put points into, the slight damage increase from a stronger Lower Resist wouldn't be worth it, but there isn't much of interest once Poison Dagger, Poison Explosion, and Poison Nova are all maxed. The only competition for skill points that I can think of would come from Bone Prison/Wall for a stronger Bone Shield (mediocre on pure bone necromancers anyway and paltry if your skills are going into poison), Skeleton Mastery for stronger revives (useful, but a poison necromancer will be using Lower Resist far, far more often than relying on revives), Golem Mastery for a better tank (the way I play a poison necromancer, this would be a waste even compared to Lower Resist, but your mileage may vary), and Corpse Explosion (which I don't use anyway because I have a max Poison Explosion). I have a level 31 Lower Resist on one of my necromancers, which is noticeably stronger than a level 10 version of the skill (-66% vs. -54%). And he still has points elsewhere (Skeleton Mastery) after having maxed Lower Resist.
  5. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Seriously?
    Poison explosion is junk. It's nearly the worst skill in the game, nowhere even comparable to CE.
    Corpse explosion is the necromancer's signature and most powerful skill. Every other skill he has only has the function of slapping 4-5 bodies on the ground so that he can start a massive CE chain that devastates everything on the screen.
    Poison nova stands out a little as with the right equipment it can clear weak mobs pretty well on its own, but it's still nowhere as good as CE once you have bodies on the ground.
    When playing MP with any necromancer, I use exclusively curses and CE, sometimes a couple summons ( but make sure they don't get in the way ). Because necro's weak backup ( non-CE) spells are nothing compared to other toons dmg output.
  6. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    I just remembered that I've seen you do this before. This is the second thread where you've portrayed Corpse Explosion as the necromancer's only real source of damage. It's apparently some sort of sacred cow for you. So while I'm sure we disagree on the relative utility of Corpse Explosion and other necromancer skills, I'll just say this for the poison necromancer.

    I've taken a poison necromancer (full Trang-Oul's with Blackbog's as the weapon) through Hell on /players8. I invested one point in Corpse Explosion, and only ever used it on occasions where there were lots of relatively weak unbreakable poison-immune monsters (infrequently enough that I didn't even have a hotkey for it), and at those points, the +16 from my gear gave the skill such range that dumping more points into it wouldn't have done much for me anyway, because the monsters I was intending to kill with it were already standing very close to the corpses I was blowing up. The rest of the time, if I needed to wipe out large hoards of weak monsters, Poison Nova did the job quickly and easily.

    Also, Poison Explosion is far from the worst skill. For most monsters, if Lower Resist is used, one hit from Poison Explosion is a death sentence.
  7. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    Poison Explosion does crazy damage, and it can certainly work. (I've taken a character through Hell who uses only that skill.) The fact that it CAN be good doesn't mean that it's most efficient. Corpse Explosion provides alternative damage types (fire/physical), while requiring fewer skill points (20, as opposed to 60) and most importantly having a huge radius which is much easier to work with. It also doesn't interfere with your usage of Poison Nova, which allows for the greatest possible DPS, and it is the ultimate utility/damage skill as far as other necromancer types.
  8. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    One doesn't invest the 40 skill points into Poison Nova and Poison Dagger merely to get a stronger Poison Explosion. The original question about Lower Resist was raised because of poison-focused necromancers, presumably using either Poison Dagger, Poison Nova, or both for most of the damage. Poison Explosion is merely some nice utility. My contention is that if you're already investing the 20 points into Poison Explosion for synergy purposes, you might as well take advantage of the skill itself, which can be rather handy. One could also max Corpse Explosion on top of this to get as much range as possible. I did max Corpse Explosion on my summoner (for something like a level 35 Corpse Explosion), so it's not like I've never seen it. I just wouldn't care to max the skill for its obscene range when I'm already using Lower Resist and Poison Nova to clear everything around me instead of casting Amplify Damage.

    If I'm facing non-immune targets, I don't see why it would be more convenient to switch between Poison Nova and Corpse Explosion "for greatest possible DPS" when I can just kill everything with a few hits from Poison Nova. Everyone plays differently. For my poison necro, I mainly only used Poison Explosion to nuke key single targets and to afflict big mobs of highly poison-resistant (but not immune after Lower Resist) with damage over time from a long distance. And I mainly only used Corpse Explosion on big mobs of unbreakable poison-immunes (so the way I used it on my poison necro, increasing the range beyond the 8 yards I already had wouldn't have been all that helpful). But really, I used Revive on far more corpses than either of the explosion skills.
  9. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    For a build using Poison Nova, Poison Explosion literally does nothing except remove corpses. Poison Nova and Poison Explosion deal approximately the same amount of damage per second, with the difference being that Poison Nova is virtually guaranteed to hit the majority of targets in the area. When you consider that only one source of poison can be dealing damage at any given time, Poison Nova is already taking care of all of your potential poison-based damage. Even a 1 point Corpse Explosion would be better than Poison Explosion, as it provides additional physical/fire damage over a much larger area. There is also the fact that half of Corpse Explosion damage is fire-based, allowing it to also benefit from Lower Resist. Last, keep in mind that Poison Nova does not kill everything equally fast, which means the monsters which generally die first (non-unique monsters, minions, etc.) will open the door for CE to deal additional damage to the larger targets.

    Everyone plays differently, and Poison Explosion is a viable skill in its own capacity, but Corpse Explosion is vastly superior.
  10. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    You seem to be portraying a scenario in which monsters take a long time to die, there are lots of them, and there are also lots of corpses. I don't see that happening very often. Most of the time when I'm using Poison Nova, monsters drop after only a few uses. I could switch to Corpse Explosion, but it would be inconvenient and only slightly speed things up at best. If instead of hoards of weak monsters I'm facing smaller packs of tough monsters, I'm probably using Poison Dagger and possibly Revive. If the big monsters start to pile up, then I'm inclined to use Poison Explosion so that I can hit swaths of them with long-duration poison and not have to worry about reapplying it while I use other skills (Bone Prison, Poison Dagger on bosses, Bone Wall, maybe start replenishing my Revives, recasting Bone Armor, recasting Fire Golem, Fire Wall, possibly Decrepify or Lifetap, and so on). That's not to say I'd never use Corpse Explosion either. I've used it in plenty of situations. It's a useful skill. But you know, when you say "even a 1 point Corpse Explosion would be better" you should keep in mind that a maxed Corpse Explosion will be doing exactly zero more damage in its radius than a one-pointer and with +skills, that one-point CE is going to get a pretty big radius anyway.

    Yes, in the context of spamming Poison Nova, rapidly switching to Corpse Explosion in between PN casts gives more damage output than doing the same with Poison Explosion (I'm not even sure that this would work with the Trang-Oul setup I used for my first poison necro, but I'd buy that it could be done for other builds). If that's the criterion for "vastly superior" then it's no contest. But for a poison necromancer, Poison Explosion gives synergy points and does way more damage than Corpse Explosion.
  11. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    Poison Nova generally does equivalent or greater (and occasionally a bit less) poison damage per second than Poison Explosion, depending upon the exact roll on the damage. This means that even if you use Poison Explosion, it will almost certainly either (1) have zero effect as the current Poison Nova is superior in damage, or (2) be quickly overridden by the next Poison Nova and have zero effect. In those terms, it would be better not to use the skill at all, unless you are using exclusively Poison Explosion without any Poison Nova at all for the longer duration. That is beyond inefficient, considering the relative abilities of the two skills to actually hit their desired targets.

    A maxed Corpse Explosion can kill things not even on your screen, which separates it from a single point Corpse Explosion buffered by however many + skills. The skill deals the exact damage within its own radius, but the damage is not exactly the same when considering the total number of enemies within their respective radii. It is much more reliable than Poison Explosion (static radius of 4? yards) regardless, not to mention it actually does damage.

    I'm not trying to say you can't play the way that you want to play. It's perfectly fine to use Poison Explosion/Dagger, Revives, Fire Wall, and so on if that's what fits into your definition of fun. Implying that Poison Explosion is even close to as efficient as simply Poison Nova + Corpse Explosion, however, is beyond laughable.
  12. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    I've never found it difficult to hit things with Poison Explosion. I already said that of course I wouldn't be using Poison Explosion if I'm also spamming Poison Nova. I wouldn't use Corpse Explosion in that case either, although I can't be sure if that would be true in all cases. For a full Trang-Oul's set, the slow casting speed makes it untenable (Poison Nova will have worn off, albeit barely, by the time I have a chance to cast it again after switching to Corpse Explosion once and casting it).

    If you want to clear, say, The Pit on /players1, then yeah, Corpse Explosion will kill some enemies before they even show up onscreen. But what if you're in the Worldstone Keep and some Black Souls have gotten piled up in a corridor, perhaps with other monsters in front of them. Trying to get too close would be dangerous. Poison Nova could probably hit them without letting you get hit. But one thing I've done in that sort of scenario is let Revives tank the monsters while I hit them all with a couple of Poison Explosions. There wouldn't be enough corpses there to kill them with Corpse Explosion, but with Poison Explosion a single corpse can devastate and possibly kill everything around it, even on /players8.

    Pretend it was some silly theme build if you want. It beat Hell on /players8 way faster than my decked out summoner with a maxed Corpse Explosion.
  13. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Lol. Poison explosion is MUCH worse than corpse explosion. Not even comparable.
    Sure you can play through the game with poison explosion alone, or not use CE, this doesn't mean its good.

    All necros use CE. It simply is their best ability, the end.
  14. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    It's not a question of whether Poison Explosion is easy to hit things with, rather that it's just easier to hit them with Poison Nova. The usage of full Trang's is already supremely inefficient, rendering the argument of cast rate and such meaningless.

    CE has the same amount of damage potential in all areas, as it scales depending upon /p1 unadjusted monster life. WSK on /p1 is no different than Pit on /p1. In the scenario you provided, would be much easier to just DV the Black Souls and start a CE chain by killing the other monsters in the area. There is a difference between things that can kill (PE) and things that kill the most effectively in the greatest number of scenarios (CE).

    Why are you comparing the speed of a summoner to a poisonmancer to begin with? A "decked out" poisonmancer can be one of the faster area clearing characters in the game when using only Poison Nova/Corpse Explosion, regardless of /players setting. My average run time for Pit on /p7 over 3000+ runs during an MF tournament was 80 seconds (sample run) even without 'Infinity', which I highly doubt could be managed with PE.

    I'll say it again. PE is nice. My character before the tournament was actually a pure PE necromancer. It was great fun, and it was very rewarding luring monsters into their death. It just wasn't the extremely efficient killer that PN + CE proved to be.

    EDIT: I rarely agree with zaph, but when I do, it's about something as completely obvious as this. -_-;;
  15. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Btw. If you have any doubt how badly the necromancer skills suck compared to CE, check out the Mercmancer thread for some numbers.

    In an MP setting, replace 'merc' with other characters who can get corpses on the ground even quicker.

    In general:
    Poison nova works okay for low hp trash mobs.
    Skeletons/revives are great tanks.
    Merc is the dps to get bodies on the ground.
    CE blows up everything.

    Ofc there are other ways to play the necromancer. But this is the optimum in terms of damage dealing in a cookie cutter way.
  16. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    The internet ate my last reply. I can't remember everything I said, so I'll try again...

    Well, that seems pretty definitive. Also, it's a massive oversimplification. Corpse Explosion is useful and yeah, I've always put at least one point into it. It's the best ability when there are loads of corpses around and you want to rapidly take down everything in a large area. Presumably you wouldn't try to claim that it's the best ability the necromancer has when fighting Duriel, for example. I've found plenty of times with multiple archetypes of necromancer that sometimes I'm better off using what corpses I come across for Revive, rather than Corpse Explosion.

    Also, I don't think I bothered going into this before, but insisting that Poison Explosion is useless because Corpse Explosion is "better" is another oversimplification. Corpse Explosion, on account of its far greater area of effect and rapid damage output, is generally of far greater utility value than Poison Explosion. I can easily see why that would see it labeled "outclassed" or "worse than Corpse Explosion." But "junk" and "worst skill in the game"? A necromancer that has it at all is likely to have it maxed for synergy purposes. A maxed Poison Explosion (which will itself be fully synergized) does far more damage than Corpse Explosion. Against a particularly beefy monster, that can matter. I have used the skill in cases where Corpse Explosion wouldn't have helped much.

    Yeah, I've seen that. A bit gimmicky, but still pretty cool. Of course, it is true that Corpse Explosion is the best way for a necromancer to do a lot of damage in a cookie cutter way in most places in the game. That doesn't mean other skills suck.

    You seem to be fond of overstatement, with phrases like "supremely inefficient" and "beyond laughable." If you don't like full Trang-Oul's, that's fine, but I did take it through Hell on /players8 and I know that it's not "supremely inefficient." Survivability and killing speed were both above average for the characters I've played. The super-fast walking speed is nice and the fire skills are great for killing poison-immunes (maxed Lower Resist probably helped a bit with that too, although I never did the math to see just how much).

    But point taken that full Trang-Oul's isn't relevant to the general utility of combining Poison Nova and Corpse Explosion. I guess I'll have to try it out on my second poison necro. Since I haven't tried it, I guess I have to reserve judgment. Seems like it would be hard to get many Corpse Explosions off while keeping Poison Nova applied constantly. When I've used Corpse Explosion, it's been spamming the skill, not interrupting it with another spell every two seconds.

    Well, no. There are differential physical and fire resistances, densities of monsters available for corpses, and other factors. Surely you'd notice that it clears the Maggot Lair and such far more easily than the Chaos Sanctuary. If weak monsters are abundant and drop quickly due to some other source of damage, that gives a lot of corpses available to start a big Corpse Explosion chain. If monsters are sparser and stronger, Corpse Explosion is intermittent (or you have to wait for corpses to build up).

    The part I quoted when I noted that made it seem like my poison necro was some zany build that might be able to beat the game, but isn't actually well-suited to doing so. I know that's not the case because I'd already beaten Hell on /players8 with a summoner (with Corpse Explosion maxed, of course) and the Trang-Oul's poison build was faster and possibly safer most of the time.

    Maybe that's why the different emphasis on Corpse Explosion. I tend to only play by going through the entire game and then clearing random areas (mostly going after bosses though) once Hell is beaten. If I were going to run The Pit thousands of times with a necro, of course I'd max Corpse Explosion. But for general gameplay, I mostly see it accelerating monster kills that weren't a problem to begin with. When things get dangerous, I can't recall ever having said, "Corpse Explosion saved me there."
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012

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