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On Faith vs. WF bow selection: by the numbers

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Crazy Runner Guy, May 26, 2013. | Replies: 26 | Views: 2927

  1. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    The primer for this post is the following question: is it possible to get a pure bowazon to clvl 99? And if so, how?

    [​IMG]

    I have found Jah rune, and now have the ability to make, at least on the surface, the most powerful non-Windforce bow: Faith.

    First, required reading: Bow Comparison – by the numbers; Amazon Tables (IAS); Multi vs. Strafe.

    My current thoughts are to build one of the belows, run Chaos or other mlvl 87 areas to 98, and then switch to /p1 and /p7 Chaos runs. So question one: how do I get there? This post is mostly focused on that question, the getting to 98.

    As a sub part to this question, do I do one thing to get to 98 and another to get to 99? Question two is the more complicated question and affects the answer to question one: what do I use to get there?

    In my quest to answer these questions, I put together the below. Basically, it shows that it is more or less a wash between a WF zon at 7 FPA /w Act 1 Merc wielding Faith, a WF zon at 9 FPA /w a Might merc /w Pride, and a Faith Zon in a Shadow bow at 7 FPA with the same Might/Pride merc. My gut says make the last of these options, the Faith/Shadow Zon (which also gives me the option to make WF/Act 1 merc zon until I get another Lo and a Sur). I was also very surprised that the 9 FPA WF merc does so well on paper.

    Damage Formulas:

    Weapon Minimum Damage = Base Minimum Damage * (1+ (+x % Enhanced Damage)/100) + (+x to Minimum Damage)

    Weapon Maximum Damage = Base Maximum Damage * (1+ (+x % Enhanced Damage)/100) + (+x to Maximum Damage)

    Minimum Damage = (Weapon Minimum Damage + (+x To Minimum Damage)) * (1 + StatBonus + (+x% Enhanced Damage) / 100)) * Modifier

    Maximum Damage = (Weapon Maximum Damage + (+x To Maximum Damage)) * (1 + StatBonus + (+x % Enhanced Damage) / 100)) * Modifier

    Notes on Faith

    Faith is a little goofy because the amount of IAS you need to hit 7 FPA depends on two things: your base; and the slvl Fanatacism you roll. Because I will only get one shot at making this bow, I will be using bows that guarantee ease of use in the event of a poor (slvl 12 or 13, depending on bow). This is discussed more in depth below.

    WINDFORCE-BASED, Act 2 Merc

    WF, Ohm’d
    Andy’s, ed/IAS (base at least +29 STR)
    Fort, Archon (106 STR)
    LoH
    2x Raven, each 20 dex
    Razortail
    War Traveler
    Highlord’s
    CtA/-15% req SS

    Might Merc (slvl 18 Might): Pride (lvl 18 Conc.)

    Important stats at clvl 98:
    865% off-weapon ED (300 Fort; 40 hat jewel; 315 Conc aura; 210 Might Aura)
    90% IAS: 9 FPA multi/normal attack; 9/3 strafe (120 IAS needed for 9/2 strafe)
    510 Dex
    71% Crit
    36.75% Deadly Strike
    102% Pierce (69% skill + Razortail)
    81.6575% chance to do double damage post-Crit/DS
    +15 min damage (Travs)
    +135 max damage (Travs plus 110 from charms – 10x fine SC’s; 8x Sharp GC’s) – no v1.07 charms, though
    Weapon Min Damage: 40
    Weapon Max Damage: 578.25 (68*(1+300/100)+98*3.5)
    Average Weapon Damage: 4173.33
    Average Weapon Damage, post-Crit/DS: 7581.16 (ave weap. dmg + ave. weap dmg * Crit/DS%)
    Ave. dmg per sec 21058.79 (post-crit ave dmg * 25/9)

    I don’t think Cat’s Eye is best because the additional 20 dex – functionally 20% ED – is less than the boost from the +16% chance to do double damage.

    Atma’s is a thought here, but it requires dropping the Ohm rune in the WF and the additional chance for double damage. Great in packs, but I don’t think it is that great when you’re shooting at 9 FPA – there’s just not enough opportunities for Amp to trigger to make it worth while.

    Also, a general note about boots – Travs provide more of a damage boost than Gores because of the Crit Strike skill and the piss-poor effect of CB when delivered by a bow.

    The above with an Act 1 merc wielding Faith bumps the numbers as follows:

    Average Weapon Damage: 3095.34
    Average Weapon Damage, post-Crit/DS: 5622.91 (ave weap. dmg + ave. weap dmg * Crit/DS%)
    Ave. dmg per sec 20081 (post-crit ave dmg * 25/7)

    FAITH-BASED (SHADOW BOW)

    This is where things get a little tricky. This bow needs 70% IAS for slvl 12-13 Fanat and 65% IAS for slvl 14-15 Fanat. Basically 50/50 chance of what you need. Faith does not have any inherent IAS, so it needs to come from off-weapon.

    Faith, Shadow Bow (Superior 15% ED)
    Giant Skull, 2x ED/IAS jewels (calculated as perfect below)
    Fort, Archon (106 STR)
    LoH
    Dual Leech ring /w Stats and res (Blood Craft)
    Raven, 20/244
    Razortail
    War Traveler
    Highlord’s
    CtA/-15% req SS

    Might Merc (slvl 18 Might): Pride (lvl 18 Conc.)

    Important stats at clvl 98:
    1193% off-weapon ED (300 Fort; 80 hat jewels; 315 Conc aura; 210 Might Aura; 288 slvl 15 Fanat)
    90% IAS: 7 FPA multi/normal attack; 8/2 strafe
    484 Dex
    71% Crit
    36.75% Deadly Strike
    102% Pierce (69% skill + Razortail)
    81.6575% chance to do double damage post-Crit/DS
    +15 min damage (Travs)
    +135 max damage (Travs plus 110 from charms – 10x fine SC’s; 8x Sharp GC’s) – no v1.07 charms, though
    Weapon Min Damage: 66.75
    Weapon Max Damage: 262.5
    Average Weapon Damage: 3057.74
    Average Weapon Damage, post-Crit/DS: 554.62 (ave weap. dmg + ave. weap dmg * Crit/DS%)
    Ave. dmg per sec 19837.94 (post-crit ave dmg * 25/7)

    The Shadow Bow has the highest average weapon damage for a bow that isn’t a GMB, Hydra, or Crusader bow. It also has a base weapon speed of 0, making it easier to hit the 7 fpa without needing IAS on the belt or 45% IAS on the helm.

    The damage here is basically ~1,200/second less than the WF. The biggest difference between the two may be the ITD on the bow, meaning that 19 skill points are saved from Penetrate and can be dumped into something else – like maxing out Strafe or MS (which I think might be OK to do to clear out the entire CS quickly from the center of it?)

    Also, if that stat ring has an aggregate +20 stats, damage/second clears 20K.

    Unless KB is really necessary, I have to think there is a better helm in this setup that gets you at least 30% IAS. I also have a v1.07 Valk Wing that could work on an slvl 14+ fanat. with gloves to open up the amulet spot.

    FAITH-BASED (MATRIARCHAL BOW)

    This is where the most options are because of the decreased need for IAS. You need 50% IAS at slvl 12 or 13 and 45% IAS at slvl 14 or 15 Fanat. Strafe is at 8/2 with 20% IAS. The trade off here is of course a lower base damage.

    My thoughts are that the main thing the Mat Bow opens up is Atma’s Scarab with its 5% chance of casting Amp. This my thoughts is likely great to deal with packs, especially the Balrogs.

    Faith, Mat. Bow. (Superior 15% ED; +3 Bow)
    Kira; 40/15 ias
    Fort, Archon (106 STR)
    LoH
    2x Dual Leech ring /w Stats and res (Blood Craft)
    Razortail
    War Traveler
    Highlord’s
    CtA/-15% req SS
    Stormlash, Shael’d, in cube (for swinging at Big D at 7 FPA)

    Might Merc (slvl 18 Might): Pride (lvl 18 Conc.)

    Important stats at clvl 98:
    1153% off-weapon ED (300 Fort; 40 hat jewel; 315 Conc aura; 210 Might Aura; 288 slvl 15 Fanat)
    55% IAS: 7 FPA multi/normal attack; 8/2 strafe
    465 Dex (505 /w +40 stats on rings)
    71% Crit
    36.75% Deadly Strike
    102% Pierce (69% skill + Razortail)
    81.6575% chance to do double damage post-Crit/DS
    +15 min damage (Travs)
    +135 max damage (Travs plus 110 from charms – 10x fine SC’s; 8x Sharp GC’s) – no v1.07 charms, though
    Weapon Min Damage: 89
    Weapon Max Damage: 209.15
    Average Weapon Damage: 2719
    Average Weapon Damage, post-Crit/DS: 4940 (ave weap. dmg + ave. weap dmg * Crit/DS%)
    Ave. dmg per sec 17644.79 (post-crit ave dmg * 25/7) (18,000 /w aggregate of +40 stats on rings)

    This setup is perhaps the safest, since resistances across the board are much, much higher (30+28+70+15 = 143 base, meaning Fire is maxed and Light is at 178 before hell penalty).

    Other hat options: Andy’s /w ED/IAS jewel, which opens up Atma’s scarab; 80/30 G-Skull, which gives KB and again opens up amulet slot. Highlord’s is worth basically 1,000 to 1,400 damage/second. The above setup with Highlord’s does 16,600 damage/second without factoring in any new amulet.

    FAITH-BASED (GRAND MATRON BOW)

    So I’m including this just to show how superior WF/Shadow are. GMB is tricky because if its slvl 12 or 13 Fanat, you need 100% IAS to hit 7 FPA. You need 95% otherwise. Either of those require IAS from every available slot and 45% IAS from the helm to boot. It ends up looking like this:

    Faith, GMB (15% sup/+3)
    Fort
    .07 Valk, ED/IAS (Mav’s Helm or ED/45% IAS helm)
    LoH -> Sigon’s if slvl 12/13
    Nos’s Coil (lower pierce effectiveness)
    Travs -> Sigon’s if slvl 12/13
    ML/LL/stats rare ring (+20 aggregate here)
    Raven, +20/244
    Highlord’s

    Important stats at clvl 98:
    1153% off-weapon ED (300 Fort; 40 hat jewel; 315 Conc aura; 210 Might Aura; 288 slvl 15 Fanat)
    7 FPA multi/normal attack; 8/2 strafe
    495 Dex (+20 stats on ring)
    71% Crit
    36.75% Deadly Strike
    89% pierce (slvl 24)
    81.6575% chance to do double damage post-Crit/DS
    +15 min damage (Travs) (gone /w slvl 12-13 fanat)
    +135 max damage (Travs plus 110 from charms – 10x fine SC’s; 8x Sharp GC’s) – no v1.07 charms, though (+110 if slvl 12/13 fanat)
    Weapon Min Damage: 62.3
    Weapon Max Damage: 320.45
    Average Weapon Damage: 3365/3127
    Average Weapon Damage, post-Crit/DS: 6113/5681 (ave weap. dmg + ave. weap dmg * Crit/DS%)
    Ave. dmg per sec 21832.46/20290 (post-crit ave dmg * 25/7)

    As you see, GMB is IMO about worst bow to make a Faith in because of the 25% chance of a bad roll and the necessity to use every slot available for IAS. Losing LoH sucks, too.

    (Note: Act 1 Merc carrying Faith when used with a WF runs into the same problem. Thankfully WF has 20 inherent IAS to deal with this, but if you roll poorly you need an ED/IAS jewel in the WF over an Ohm or ED/Max. In any event, a WF/Faith zon /w and Ohm'd WF does 20K/second at 7 FPA.

    Why does this all matter?

    It’s all about killing speed to me. Taking the monsters in the Chaos Sanc at /p7 and factoring LoH, the kill speed looks like this (the table actually doesn't account for Faith's +75% ed to undead...):

    Code:
     
                            Mat      Mat      Shad.   WF      WF      GMB   GMB
                            Atma   HW                 A2       A1       14/15   12/13
    Arrow/OK       6.25     6.02     5.36     3.93     5.29     4.87     5.24
    Arrow/Mage    4.42     4.25     3.78     2.77     3.74     3.44     3.7
    Arrow/Balrog  8.66     8.31     7.44     5.27     6.66     6.74     8.7
    Sec/OK           1.75     1.69     1.50     1.41     1.48     1.36     1.47
    Sec/Mage        1.24     1.19     1.06     1.00     1.05     0.96     1.04
    Sec/Balrog       2.43     2.33     2.08     1.90     1.87     1.89     2.44
    

    As you can see, the 9 FPA WF is almost in a tie for the fastest killer with the WF/Faith and good-rolled GMB. The Shadow bow isn’t too far behind and probably would be the fastest of the bunch due to the ITD on Faith.
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  2. NagisaFurukawa

    NagisaFurukawa IncGamers Member

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    13 Fanaticism is fine for 95 IAS on GMB.

    1.07 charms really shift it towards Faith of any kind, but GMB is the best regardless of that anyway. All the side bonuses (AR, ITD, skellies, etc.) really make a difference. Enigma makes for nicer runs than Fortitude as well. The ~ 200 ED difference is maybe 10-15% of the DPS of a GMB setup, but you get around much faster with high FRW and situational teleport, not to mention you can keep your mercenary from wandering. The other things (MF, etc.) are just extra benefits.

    That's just my opinions, of course. Nice writeup ~
  3. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    Fixed.

    I'm not surprised by the push toward Faith /w v1.07 charms. Just ran the numbers /w Enigma - just shy of 19,000 DPS /w GMB on a good roll, which puts it on the low end of the ballpark. It's a 5-10% DPS drop, too, depending on the roll.

    So then teleport - damn I'm going to be kicking myself if I used my first Lo on a Fort instead of waiting for a Sur to make Pride if GMB/Enigma is best setup.
  4. MYK

    MYK Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Fixed your text code block a little. :)
    Code:
                  Mat      Mat      Shad.    WF      WF        GMB     GMB
                  Atma     HW                A2       A1       14/15   12/13
    Arrow/OK      6.25     6.02     5.36     3.93     5.29     4.87     5.24
    Arrow/Mage    4.42     4.25     3.78     2.77     3.74     3.44     3.7
    Arrow/Balrog  8.66     8.31     7.44     5.27     6.66     6.74     8.7
    Sec/OK        1.75     1.69     1.50     1.41     1.48     1.36     1.47
    Sec/Mage      1.24     1.19     1.06     1.00     1.05     0.96     1.04
    Sec/Balrog    2.43     2.33     2.08     1.90     1.87     1.89     2.44
    

    Is the ITD from Faith trivial in such a damage comparison?
  5. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    General thoughts: I wouldn't go on numbers alone. Different bows feel different, they have their strengths and weaknesses.
    While 7fpa with GMB is achievable I wouldn't go for it, it takes too many useful slots, 8fpa GMB is more than fine and quite powerful.
    9fpa windforce does feel slow with multi, but is excellent with strafe. 7fpa with 10 WSM bow ( MB ), great for multi but a little weak with strafe. So I think GMB is the best overall balance. Also depends on if you want it for a rogue merc. WF+faith merc is a good combo.
    Faith and WF have different bonuses ( fanaticism, AR bonus/ITD, revives vs KB, manaleech ) but overall faith is better.
    Atma's scarab is very powerful. I wouldn't go without it.

    Level 99 running with bowa is ambitious indeed.
    You can teleport to Baal with enigma and then swap forti in cube or sth if it really bothers you (shouldn't ).
    But the much bigger problem is that bowas are terribly weak vs act bosses. You'll struggle to kill Baal even on p1. There are some cumbersome options such as keeping fleshripper+stormshield in cube for swap, or eth hone for 1 pt jab. But I wouldn't bother with Baal before lvl 98 imo.

    I made two videos of pit running - Faith and Windforce which is much older.

    Also, are you considering frostmaiden? That thing owns Baal waves pretty much.
  6. Cyrax

    Cyrax IncGamers Member

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    Without looking at all the numbers and the indepth analysis, the answer to your question is: yes.

    Having said that, i have based my answer on a different type of bowazon (which doesn't mean your approach won't work) namely a FA/Multi bowazon. Ran her during a MFO with surprising success (on the runspeed department, not that she found much goodies). Here's a video of her running so you can take a look for yourself.
  7. Marvel

    Marvel IncGamers Member

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    I like both my pride stick and faith bow but im thinking maybe i should make a new faith or two in different base items. The current one is more or less made for merc use. I got a nice chunck of mf with max/ar/mf sc collection so thats a nice way to go =)

    But sure its possible, if you got some patience its not that hard, times are still good if they land around 5 mins. Rather a unique build then some mainstream one =)
    Anyway nice find and good luck with what ever way you choose to spend your roonz.

    Thanks for the numbers, it made me think about some new uses of left over rooonz.
  8. Kimppi

    Kimppi IncGamers Member

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    Here's an old video of couple of runs with Ice for a different take from when I was still playing and going for 99 bowazon .
  9. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    My gut says no, because it will should eliminate the number of misses, therefore upping the effective dps.

    Agreed on feel of bows. I like the feeling of firing at 7 FPA, and that makes Atma's much more effective.

    As for frostmaiden, I have considered it but I don't like how dependent on mana it is or that I need an Infinity. This project is actually being put together as a side project while I quest/run LK for a second Ber to make Infinity so I can re-tool my clvl 98 sorc from Blizzball to Lightning or Lightning/Fire Wall. I just so damn sick of dealing with cold immunes in the Throne and in Wave 2. So if Ber drops, I'm going to make infinity and push that sorc to 99.

    Right now it's looking like Faith in a Mat Bow, .07 Valk helm and CtA/Lidless on switch for 50% FCR teleporting and Atma's. Teleport to beginning of CS (or to center), clear, and S&E. Damage drops slightly from what's listed above, but I think the FCR and FRW will make runs fast enough.

    You're right on Act bosses - a straight bow doesn't cut it. I was thinking of using a huge amount of CB on the merc and swinging a Stormlash (and maybe modifying gear a clvl 98 to be more CB-focused) at Big D to cut him down, much like (but less effective than) a Smiter using a 'lash /w Smite to cut down a boss before going straight hammers.
  10. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    Just wanted to give an update on this.

    I made the bow in 10% superior Shadow Bow, figuring that I had a 50/50 shot of getting a good enough Fanat roll to need only two pieces of gear to hit the 65% IAS needed for 7 FPA (v1.07 Valk Wing /w jewel + LoH). Well I rolled at +1/slvl 12 - worst possible. I haven't put together the Pride yet, and am rolling with a Reaper's/Guillaume's/Fort might merc. Right now I figure I'm at about 10K dps @ 7 FPA at clvl 88. Max will be about 14.5K @ clvl 98. Runs feel pretty good for speed, finished in less than two BO cycles.

    I tried the above setup using Enigma with and without Atma's (Highlord's + Razortail vs. Atma's + Nos's Coil). Atma's feels clearly superior because running CS is a lot like running Cows - get a good herd together and blast away. It's a very, very fun character. When things are packed that tightly, Amp has a good tendency to go off (especially with ITD and 20K AR /w 1 pt in Penetrate = 90% or better chance to hit per LCS) and eviscerate anything that it hits on.

    That said, this is a very, very fragile character to play - 900 life, no shield, slvl 13 in D/A/E skills.

    Enigma is absolutely essential, thanks, Nagisa. 50% FCR is also sufficient for decent teleporting, and I'm going to throw a shael in the shield for some FBR.

    Kinda missing KB, formerly had it with WF, but that hasn't been a major issue. As long as I can keep firing I'm doing OK.
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  11. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Something you can consider if you don't want to use atma's is to try lacerator on switch (or are you using cta? harmony? tele switch?).

    Launch a strafe volley and then weapon swap quickly for high chance to amp targets.
  12. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    CtA/Lidliss switch for most tele'ing. Life is ~600ish without BO, something unacceptably low (too easy to for one-hit KO).
  13. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Ah yes that's pretty scary
  14. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    One more thing - keep in mind that at clvl 98 and with at least +1 strength from the LL/ML/stats ring (assuming Nos's Coil; +11 STR needed if Razortail), every stat point goes to dex. Hence the reason life is so low. Charms, especially good ones, give a huge boost to this character.
  15. thefranklin

    thefranklin IncGamers Member

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    Looks like a lot of fun! Can we get a current LCS shot?

    And how are you handling the po'd red guy at the end?
  16. RobbyD

    RobbyD IncGamers Member

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    OK - I'm a little confused here - I'm looking that the linked Zon Strafe tables, and it looks like a GMB gets to 5/3 with 20% IAS and level 12 Fana. According to what I've read and seen, there is a bug with the 4/2 Strafe speed because it stays at 5/3 on the "server side". I've also heard it claimed that, for this reason, a GMB is tops as a Faith base. Now, it this only for MP games, or does it apply to SP as well? How do these table translate to the 7 FPA goal stated here?
  17. Jcakes

    Jcakes IncGamers Site Pal

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    Strategic bug Applies to single player. 7 fpa is for multishot
  18. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Strafe speeds max out at x/3 EVEN THOUGH it looks like x/2 on screen. For this reason alone, WF is the better option for strafers not using sick 1.07 damage charms.

    Also, a 40ED 15max jewel will outperform Ohm rune.
  19. thefranklin

    thefranklin IncGamers Member

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    Only if you strafe and move every time do you not gain damage.
  20. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Yes, you DO gain damage, just not as much as when geared towards damage instead of speed. Such as a slower WF vs a faster Faith mat bow. Also the not moving part is annoying at best, and lethal at worst. .32 seconds don't sound like much, but with a char this low on life and resists, you really don't want to get used to leech, then get hit, then realize "oh f... I'm not leeching fast enough, I need to get out of the way.." but stuck for 320ms so didn't get away fast enough, lost 29 mill exp at lvl 98....

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