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"Newbie" question: 2XB v. 1XB + shield

Discussion in 'Demon Hunter' started by Vanadin, Jun 6, 2012. | Replies: 26 | Views: 38275

  1. Vanadin

    Vanadin IncGamers Member

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    I know there's a +15% IAS bonus for dual wielding, but it also sounds like that you alternate weapons, so it sounds like you don't get to fire two weapons twice as fast.

    So, I guess I'm wondering: when does it make more sense to use two hand crossbows v. one hand crossbow and a shield?
  2. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil IncGamers Member

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    Depends on what you are looking for with Archery : +50% crit damage for 2h, +10% crit chance for 1h.

    But, you can have a quiver in off hand with both, so if your shield is not as good as a quiver (There are always +12-13% ias mods in quiver), then the 2h crossbow is probably better. Furthermore, I do not see the point of using a shield past a certain difficulty level. I take minimum 40k when hit in act3 inferno, so I do not see how 1.5k damage reduction could help.

    My advice is go for a good quiver!!
    Mine is 90Dex, 57Vita, 12%ias, +7max disc, +0.47Hatred/sec and a socket, for a required level of 52... you can find great items, and as the quiver is usable whatever your weapon is, it's a good investment.
  3. Spookmore

    Spookmore IncGamers Member

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    Just a quick note the damage reduction from shield comes pretty close to being the last step after all damage reductions are finished, so it actually gets better the more reductions you have. A good shield with high block chance and decent amount will increase your mitigation by a lot. I think it goes damage reduction from armor, and then that is put into resistances, and then that has the block amount subtracted from it.

    Not saying everyone needs a shield though, just pointing out that it really is more than 1.2k subtracted from 40k.


  4. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    For a Demon Hunter the most important mitigation from a shield probably won't be the block chance, but instead will be the huge amount of armor and possibility of getting more all res. The problem with blocking on a DH is that we don't have any passive defensive abilities to increase our res or armor, so we don't mitigate the damage much before it gets to the shield's integer damage blocking.
    Ex:
    A demon hunter with 50% DR from armor and 50% DR from res (75% overall DR), using a Sacred Shield (4206 average damage per block) effectively blocks, on average, 4206*100/(100-75) = 16824 damage from each blocked attack.
    A barbarian with 70% DR from armor and 70% DR from res (91% DR), using the same shield blocks, on average, 4206*100/(100-91) = 46733 damage from each blocked attack. Oh, and that's not taking into account that barbs and monks have 30% innate damage reduction. So that becomes 93.7% DR total, 4206*100/(100-93.7)= 66761 damage blocked per attack. Plus they're in melee so they're blocking more often, whereas a Demon Hunter's main concern is in my experience to avoid being one-shotted by the few attacks that she can't get out of the way of.

    I'm not sure it will ever make more sense to use two one-handed crossbows at the same time, though I admit there are lots of things about this game I haven't yet grasped. Quivers can give up to 15% ias, plus dexterity, vitality, crit chance, etcetera. It will depend on which stats carry over from one weapon to the other (stacking crit damage % ? doubling up on IAS?), if any. If you choose a shield you get extra defenses, can stack chance to crit a little higher (10% max vs 8.5% max on a quiver from my auction house research), and might end up being tougher to kill.

    I need to do some experimentation on the subject, I suppose. XD
  5. Matuse

    Matuse IncGamers Member

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    Legendary Quivers (one of the few legendaries that actually seem pretty good) can hit 20% IAS.

    If block worked to block a hit completely, then with a high block chance shield and DH dex, it might even make Inferno somewhat vaguely survivable. Possibly even to the point where it would be worth the steep loss of damage from no IAS. But that doesn't seem to be how they work, so to me a quiver is the only thing worth putting in that off hand.
  6. Malicious

    Malicious IncGamers Member

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    As a DH, u don't need a shield, when u have abilities like Smokescreen. Go with a 2 hand Xbow + Quiver imo.
  7. Matuse

    Matuse IncGamers Member

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    Smokescreen isn't enough. The duration is terribad, and you can't move through packs (for escaping things like 3 sided waller walls).

    In order to barely function in Inferno, I need both Smokescreen AND Vault, and I still die with grim regularity.
  8. Malicious

    Malicious IncGamers Member

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    A shield isn't going to save u from a waller pack either. U are better off going for pure damage and using Smokescreen + Caltrops to kill them before they get to u. Sure, there are some mobs which will still kill u, like Phasebeasts and Soul Lashers... but trust me, a shield isn't going to do a thing against them.
  9. Matuse

    Matuse IncGamers Member

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    For future reference, please actually read what people write before you respond to them.
  10. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    A shield could make the difference between being killed by a lasher you didn't see in one hit or surviving the attack to smoke screen. It's just a bit difficult to stomach the dps loss...
  11. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil IncGamers Member

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    In my opinion, if trash mobs manage to come to me and hit me before I kill them, I should not be playing there, but the act before maybe... I do not want to waste SS just for a fallen or a skeleton.

    But this could make sense in the fact that for example, skeleton archers' arrows are really, really hard to dodge manually, and can hit for a huge amount of HP when you take 3-4... there, a shield could be usefull.

    But for a huge majority of fights, and especially if you play multiplayer where you are most likely to have someone in melee range ahead of you, a quiver is way better at increasing you damages, speed, disc and hatred regeneration, wich is amazing (If you use preparation, even 7 disc is virtually one more SS in a fight)


  12. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    You have a pretty good point that, when applied to more typical ranged attacks, I agree with.

    The lasher isn't a good example of this; they're far and away the nastiest mob in A3, with an attack that can deal ~230k damage before DR, is ranged, almost instantaneous, unavoidable, and causes the monster to close distance with you. Having problems with them doesn't mean you need to go back to the previous act; it means that lashers are vile creatures designed to beat the tar out of you.

    In a party, no, you don't need a shield. If you're dying in that case, you need to go back to town and work up a better strategy. But if you're concerned with not dying in one hit to some of the nastiest attacks in the game (lashers, oppressors, etc), the 1000+ armor and extra all res available on a shield are a good way to have a chance at that.


  13. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil IncGamers Member

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    I totally agree with you on the lasher : Even when grouping with friends that finished inferno, The only rule for act 3 is :

    "If champ/ rare lasher pack, whatever affixes they have got, everybody run away and the monk/barb of the party go park them in a map corner..." These guys are really nasty!

    My point was just that with a DH, which is one of the best damage dealing ranged class, at the price of surviving, a good rule is that you must bew able to kill almost every white trash from far away, except a few stuff like lashers, to be able to do a zone without too nuch problems. If you cannot, you are in the wrong place.

    BUt to come back on the shield/quiver stuff, My advice is :

    -Always have a good quiver in stash : you can use it with every weapon you want, it's an insane DPS increase, and it is usefull in quite every situation.
    -For the shield, it's difficult to say : You have to play a 1h Xbow, and the suield must have really good defensive/surviving affixes. The shield won't do all the defensive stuff you need, so you have to stack a few other defense affixes (res, defense, armor, dodge) for it to really be usefull (if you get 1 hit killed by many things with 50k hits where you have 25k life, a shield is useless)

    Conclusion : always have a good quiver waiting for you in case of, if you manage to stack some protective stats, find a good one hand and a good shield, and play alone, you can trie shield. If not, quiver.
  14. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, I think we pretty much agree. Except for outliers, quiver>shield.

    I will say that I wouldn't mind trying a ~+100 dex, 10% chance to crit, 60+ all res shield on my DH. Quivers can't get quite as much crit chance... it might be worth it for my build if I had enough IAS on other gear.
  15. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil IncGamers Member

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    Seems like a good shield, but my fear is that you will loose too much going from bow/Xbow to 1h Xbow..? But I could be wrong. At same DPS, without taking stats into account, how do the prices behave compared to 2handlers?
  16. Joosh

    Joosh IncGamers Member

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    Honestly, I think they both have their positives.

    I was thinking about this further and had a thought, offhand weapon switch! I suspect (not actually sure of the reason) they don't wish to have it like in D2 where you could just switch for buffs/MF but I think allowing the offhand weapon switch would open up a lot of versatility and further the immersive experience that is diablo 3.

    See a group of white skeletons, Bam! Quiver on and tear those demons apart, but oh no, there's a group of skeleton archers behind them. No problem you say as you switch to your shield, take this demonspawn!!!

    Just my $0.02

    Joosh :thumbup:
  17. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil IncGamers Member

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    Good idea, but as far as I am concerned, it's either :

    -No switch at all
    -2hands switch.

    Allowing only an off-hand switch is kind of a discrimination for people using 2h weapon. For DH, this strategy would force you to play1h Xbow, as 2hXbows or Bows are only playable with quivers, not shields.

    But I would like to see this feature in the future. In D2, it was allowed, and lots of people used it only with CTA/shield +2all skills (or 2xCTA for barbs) just to buff theirselves, with is like switching to increase MF or any other thing.
  18. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    I'm currently using a 1h crossbow build with night stalker to keep discipline moving. For the same dps, 1h crossbows are significantly more expensive.

    You really can't fairly compare 1h weapons vs 2h weapons on an equal-dps basis, though. Slow weapons have to have a bit more base dps to account for how they synergize less well with +damage on rings/amulets, on hit effects, on crit effects, can't be used with a shield, can't be used with another weapon to get all the bonuses you can find there, etc.


  19. KamikazeDreamer

    KamikazeDreamer IncGamers Member

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    I'm pretty sure the original post was asking about dual wielding 1-hand crossbows vs. hand crossbow + shield, not 2-hand bow/crossbow vs 1-hand + shield. Perhaps they can clarify that, but that is how I read it. They mention the 15% ias boost, which is for dual wielding.
  20. phor

    phor IncGamers Member

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    Jagged Spikes has a very favorable LoH coefficient.
    If you stack 5 together and use the Numbing Traps passive along with Guardian Sentry, you get ~330% LoH per second as well as 40% damage reduction.

    I know for fact that it works while leveling (even without a shield), but not sure if it's viable after act1 Inferno (even with a shield).

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