Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by mephistophilis, Apr 2, 2008. | Replies: 149 | Views: 120990

  1. mephistophilis

    mephistophilis IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I use JSP and too many people on this site do not know how to build a proper summoner. Here is my guide on jsp. Enjoy


    Hello Dear Reader,

    Many of you have followed my progress in writing summoner guides. I have to say, some of your feedback has caused me to lose sleep trying to see if it helps or hurts the build. Thank you for that, honestly. If it wasn’t for that criticism, I wouldn’t be able to present you with this set up I am today. The evolution of the Summoner Necro has gone on for a long time. The main issue is, is this character a Caster or not and how should we plan his gear accordingly?

    Please read on to realize exactly what kind of character I have envisioned the summoner necro to be. Feel free to debate me, but overall, its going to be awfully hard to prove me wrong. Do not post ignorant bull. It ruins the thread and makes you look like a jerk. Please read through the guide in its entirety before judging and please rationalize your points and bring an argument backed by facts to the table so we (including myself) can be educated on a point I may have not touched.

    I want to thank everyone's great feedback and I see a lot of my interpretation of the Summoner all over East so I can’t wait for everyone to test out this build. Now you will truly be privy to the maximum potential of a summoner. I said that before, now I mean it ;)

    Regards,

    Mephistophilis

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Introduction

    My Summoner is a caster. That means he is built for speed not for comfort (yes that is a Vinny Vaughn reference). I play East Hardcore with this build and it has two major attributes: first is its proximity to danger and second is its ability to maneuver fast and stay alive for the duration. There are two distinct (potential) draw backs people bring up in regard to this build: kill speed and character involvement; be prepared to leave those traits at home. Not only is this build fast and active, it is also very versatile, lots of fun, very effective, and uniquely useful. I will go over all the key points to build and play this character.

    There is much dispute over the Summoner’s merc and golem choices. In the past, I have said repeatedly that Might and Concentration do not do enough damage to justify their use. Now I am going to show you why and what to use in their place.
    This is the most effective pvm build for all around play in the game. It is the only character who can do EVERYTHING with only 1 set of gear. Many people say smiters, but smiters can’t run their own baal games and solo ubers with only 1 gear set. Hammerdins can’t either. They require gear changes to run different types of games. If you are like me and want to focus on a good character for climbing the ladder and be effective in every playing situation with only 1 character, my summoner build is for you. I encourage challenges as I have the answers to your questions so post away.

    Leveling

    This section is important because no matter which method you use to level your summoner, your help is of tremendous value.

    Path 1 Uber-trist: Clearly the most efficient way to level. Get glitch (or classic) rushed to hell act 5. Whip out your +1 bonewall wand and you have become the star of the show in ubers because you are now the only useful leecher with your capacity to use bonewall for the duration of the uber leveling service.

    Path 2 Chaos: So you don't know enough of the right people to run uber-trist and you're forced to chaos. No worries, you are still a very well liked build for chaos games. No other low level character can use corpse explosion(c/e) or cast amp damage/lower resist. Whoever is chaosing you will appreciate the help in killing waves of monsters with your curses and c/e.

    Path 3 Regular: So you really have no friends and nothing to trade for a glitch rush or classic rush. Well you have just become the best friend of the newbies. Tristing, tombing, cowing, normal and nightmare baaling all benefit greatly from the summoners’ curses and corpse explosion. I will not address gear to use for this method of leveling, but overall, you can use pretty much any old crap because you stay at a distance of harm and don't require any gear with skills because for leveling, corpse explosion and casting is already maxed as far as damage goes at just level 1. (I only recommend this or Ubers for Hardcore; there are too many risks in chaos)

    Gear

    I have updated my guide to incorporate the “Rich Man’s Plan,†the “Middle Class Man’s Plan,†& the “Pure Man’s Plan†(no Leet Runewords—Only used for the people who do not enjoy LoD the way most of us do).It is important to note however that both the first two plans require a couple rather expensive rune-words.
    Enigma and Faith are absolutely required to build this Necro in an effective manner. I would not even consider beginning to build this summoner without these two rune-words because he will not be able to teleport and your skeletons will not have the enhanced damage and attack speed to be useful in a timely manner. Also, you will not under any circumstances be able to run baal games or Uber-trist.
    Also, don’t forget you will need Infinity now. This is expensive as well so bear that cost in the back of your mind.

    If you so choose to skip the runewords, You want to follow my traditional gear selection outlined last for those of you who have sworn off duped runes.

    Rich Man's Gear

    The Gear Listed First is the Rich Man’s Gear. While you may notice this gear is not nearly as expensive as many classes, you also have to realize that many of the items are extremely difficult to find. There aren’t going to be many people who can afford a 20% FCR amulet, so you will need to make arrangements and I have pointed out where you can substitute even for the rich plan.

    Helm: Shako (Socketed with +9 Str/30 Fire res Jewel) [Alternative: If you cant get a 2/20 Ammy, rock a 2/20 Circlet and get a +3 Summons or +2 Necro Ammy with Mods]

    Armor: Enigma is only choice.

    Amulet: 2 Necro (or Summons)/20 Faster Cast Rate/Strength if you can get it

    Weapon: Carin Shard Wand (yep, doesn’t get more godly than this. Hoto doesn’t hold a candle to it. Slap a Str/Res jewel in it so you can wear spirit and you are golden)

    Shield: Spirit (35% FCR is important for 125% FCR breakpoint)

    Belt: Arach

    Gloves: Magefists

    Boots: War Travelers

    Rings: 2x FCR/Strength/Mana/Resistance Rings

    Swap:
    Weapon-CTA
    Shield- Lidless (if you have a str jewel in your wand to wear spirit, you cant hit 156 str on swap so rock lidless, or if you have enough strength, get a crappy spirit)

    Inventory:
    Torch and Anni (as close as perfect as you can get).
    6 Summon lifers (Or just plain if you cant afford lifers)
    1 FHR Sc (with a mod if you want. With Carin Shard and Spirit, you only need 1% fhr for breakpoint)
    Res All scs as needed or Magic Find Charms if you don’t.

    You will notice there is some open space in your inventory. You want that. This is pvm people, dont load up on charms... How are you supposed to pick up anything?

    Mercenary:
    Act 1 Fire Rogue (attacks at a distance, isn't in harm from Iron Maiden in Chaos, won't die in ubers)- You definately want fire though because if you get a cold, she will freeze corpses so you can't summon them.

    Faith (very important) (Mine is Perfect 15 Fanaticism, 2 All Skills Hydra Bow)

    Andys face or Giant skull (I use Giant Skull so she knocks enemies back and doesn’t get hit. Also, its good because it can get more Ias than Andys and you don’t need to ral it or put any other kind of 30 fire resist jewel in it.)

    Bramble for Thorns. She doesnt get hit so she doesnt need the defense from Fort and with Faith her resistances will already be maxed out.
    Note: Merc gear can really be anything but faith is a must for Fanaticism. The rest of the gear is to maximize your Merc’s potential so she can kill for you to summon when you have to.

    Uber Gear for Merc- Faith (obviously), Bramble, KIRAS (she needs super boosted resistance otherwise she will die... alot)

    Middle Class Man’s Gear (per ESCL Pricing)

    I called this poor man's gear in my prior threads and people got bent out of shape. IN MY OPINION 110 FG for a character that can solo the entire game in a full game, and solo uber in a one person game is for the poor man; its a great price for such outcome. But, since there was mass outrage since everyone said a summoner could solo the game naked, I will rephrase to the middle class man. This build is for you guys who want the fruits of my build but can't necessarily afford my gear listed. Check it out....

    Helm- Any 2 Necro/20 FCR Circ (people give them away on jsp if they have bad stats)-1 to 5 fg

    Armor- Any old Low strength req. Enigma <30 Fg

    Belt- Still gotta get Arach-20 Fg

    Rings- 2 10% FCR Rings with resists Free-10 FG (for both)

    Gloves- Magefists-Free to 2 FG

    Amulet- +0-2 Necro Skills/10%+FCR- Free to 5 FG ( I got 1 for free the other day just to make sure this was plausible. PM a known Crafter; He has 1 for you I promise)

    Boots- Junk War Travs-Free to 2 FG

    Shield- Spirit Monarch >5fg

    Weapon- Carin Shard Wand 1 FG

    Merc Faith- >30 FG

    Grand Total- >110 FG

    What do you sacrifice by using Middle Class Mans gear- Skills; that just means slower kill time. I played with this gear for a week to make sure you could do everything I can do almost as good.Ubers are a little tough with the loss of skills and damage for your skeletons, but it is still doable.

    Pure Man’s Gear

    If you swear off runewords, you aren't going to be able to teleport as much as someone with nigma and you will need an act 2 merc for auras. Here you can wear max +skill gear since you don't need fcr. I'd use this.
    Trangs armor
    Carin Shard
    Darkforce/Homunc/Boneflame
    +3 Summons Ammy
    +3 Summons Circlet
    bks or sojs (if those are ok by you)
    Any belt
    Bloodfists
    treks or Marrows

    and on switch use Naj's Staff to teleport where essential

    Your merc should wear some sort of polaxe to give him some damage. Maybe Hone Sundan for crushing blow for bosses
    Also Andys Face and some sort of eth armor with resistance would be good as well.

    Gear Closing Remarks
    While a summoner can kill most everything bare-assed, it is also very fun to have a godly summoner. If you use the gear I laid out you will hit good breakpoints and skill levels. Just keep building and experimenting as you go and you will never get tired of your summoner.


    Stats

    Strength- 0 (if You didn’t get it on gear, put enough in to wear Spirit but with rich man’s gear you shouldn’t need to)
    Dexterity- 0 Max Block isn't very important to a summoner but that is a style of play preference.
    Vitality- Everything
    Energy- 0

    Skills

    Poison and Bone Skills
    Bone Armor-1
    Teeth-1
    Corpse Explosion-1
    Bonewall-1+ (synergy for bone armor, could synergize if you wanted to) [I have 20 here for Hardcore. For softcore I do not suggest this as you don’t have to worry about dying]

    Curses
    Put 1 into every skill.
    My last build I said do not put any into Dim Vision, Confuse or Attract. These are actually quite cool... play around with em.

    Summon Skills
    Skeleton Mastery-20
    Raise Skeleton-20
    Raise Skeletal Mage-1+ (I have 10 Here on Hardcore. I only did that this time since I am hardcore. Softcore doesn’t require mages in my opinion but they are useful)
    Revive-1
    Clay Golem-1
    Iron Golem-1 He just gets defensive bonuses if you add here. Don’t really need.
    Golem Mastery-20 (Life Synergy for Iron Golem)
    Blood Golem-1+ (could do for syngergy) [I Would suggest maxing this. Don’t want infinity golem to die]
    Summon Resist- 1+

    {note: you could do anything you want with the skills I put as 1+. Play around with them. Honestly, each improves your game play some, but not substantially enough to make them 100% mandatory for ultimate build. It depends on how you play. If you want to live longer, perhaps max bone armor synergies. If you want your golem to live longer, synergize him (although I do recommend maxing Golem Mastery because its an excellent skill for your golem).}

    Break-Points

    FCR:
    15 - 0%
    14 - 9%
    13 - 18%
    12 - 30%
    11 - 48%
    10 - 75%
    9 - 125% (With the gear I have laid out, you will hit this)

    FHR:
    13 - 0%
    12 - 5%
    11 - 10%
    10 - 16%
    9 - 26%
    8 - 39%
    7 - 56%
    6 - 86% (With the gear I have laid out, you will hit this)
    5 - 152%
    4 - 377%

    Pre-Buffing

    AN IMPORTANT NOTE ON SUMMONING!!! Kill Nihlahtak but DO NOT GET HIS WAY POINT!!!!! If you don't get his waypoint, the portal to his temple says open and you can use the corpses inside to summon your skeletons. I use 6 skeletons.

    First thing you want to do is craft your Iron golem out of an infinity polarm class weapon. Lower damage is better so he doesn’t die at the hands of iron maiden. As a necro, you take your Iron Golem with you between games. He does not die after each game (thats only if you have the amulet Metal Grid). Stay alive and keep your golem alive and you only need 1 Infinity for your entire experience with your necro.

    As long as you have maxed out Resistance and solid FCR, you can tele baal games. Once you are level 80 (via chaos leveling) or 92 (via uber leveling), This is what I suggest you do.

    Your mercenary should be an act 1 fire arrow archer. Mine is named Fiona (because of Eurotrip). With faith bow, she gives your skeletons fanaticism and she uses inner sight to drop the defense of your enemies.

    Game Play

    Baal Runs- Summon 6 skeletons in Nihlahtak’s temple, make sure you have your insight iron golem and faith merc. Teleport to baal. Cast amp damage over monsters and as they die one by one, use Corpse explosion to take out the rest of the wave. When you get to baal, cast Decreptify to slow him to a standstill. Don't take any crap from anyone about summoning a small army, if they lag, its their connection or their computer. 6 skeletons is not going to make the game lag; if it lags, blame the mass dupers!

    Chaos Runs- These are harder to do than baal runs. I suggest you raise 10 skeletons and 10 revives (made out of pit-lords in chaos sanctuary, or udars along the way) Still cast amplify damage and use corpse explosion. Make sure your golem stays alive though because the knights can be especially brutal to him. This is where it's awesome to have act 1 merc because she basically can't die. Good luck with your act 2 merc in chaos... Personally, I teleport to the seals, pop them then teleport right in the middle of the wave, immediately I take a step back and cast my curse (softcore only. Hardcore, scratch that, be a pussy and you’ll live longer). This may require a potion or two and don't do this if you cry when you die because that might happen. But, I do this to maximize the damage your skeletons do. They kill the monsters in the middle first and when you use c/e it kills the entire wave from the center out with 1-2 c/e's. DO NOT DO THIS FOR LORD. He will kick your ***. You have to be a little bit more careful with Lord de Seis because he has powerful curses and nasty attacks. Approach with caution and c/e the monsters around him to get his life down. He is also the #1 Killer of Iron golem so be extra careful.

    Keyfinding- 4 Skeletons will do here. Amp damage Summoner and Countess then teleport right on top of them and pick up your keys. Since we don’t get the waypoint at nihlahtak, it takes a little bit longer to teleport to the halls where he dwells but you can still kill him easy. Take 5 skeletons down and cast amp damage. As his creatures die, be sure to use corpse explosion before he does so you, and your army doesn’t die.

    Uber trist- Scout the game. Make sure there are about 40 udars between the River of Flame and Durance of Hate before you open the portal (this is to make sure you can get a second group of 20 if you die). Also make sure the game is permed before you open it as the summons can cause lag and drops. Summon an army of 15+ Skeletons, 10+ Mages, and 20+ revives. Teleport on durial, lillith, and izzy, cast decreptify and watch 30 second deaths (or less). Once trist is open, Kill Mephesto first because he is the hardest. You want to cast Amp damage on for him for wicked fast death. Teleport right on to him then run away quick. If your merc doesnt walk away quick, keep feeding her potions till she gets the clue. Next I kill diablo. He is MUCH easier than meph (it’s almost a joke), Teleport on to him. Cast Decreptify and watch him die in seconds. Last I go for baal. DECREPTY IS IMPORTANT HERE, if he starts walking all over the place, your army doesn’t stick together and his army picks them off quickly. A complete Trist run has taken me anywhere from 1 minute 28 seconds (record)-8 minutes. Once I employed this method of cleaning it out, I have yet to take more than 5 minutes from walking into trist to leaving with my torch. Make sure you only do this alone though because more people in the game will make the game lag and crash since you have in the neighborhood of 50 summoned army members.

    Magic Finding- I use Travs, Shako, and Enigma for basically 200 mf. You can add or subtract as you like but I feel this is a solid number. I have no complaints of my findings. You all know where to go to MF, now you can just do it with your summoner!

    Conclusion

    PVM, this character is the most diverse and effective. When you run your games, make sure you don’t have a huge army because people wont stay in your runs very long if you are lagging them like crazy with a ton of summoned army members. If there is another summoner in your game, tell him NOT summon or cast his curses. He's in the wrong game if he wants to be the summoner.

    This build is a lot of fun and it makes peoples (even seasoned players) jaws drop when they see a summoner tele'ing to baal and clearing the throne. The other good thing is if you don’t want to rush the ladder with your summoner, its no big deal because you can max what you need very early on. By 88 you are maxed without dropping a lot of skills into Summon resist.

    Arguments Against Alterations (AAA)

    Act 2 Pride Might Merc

    First of all this merc is lousy. Iron Maiden owns him and his proximity to the action renders his death many more times than it should at this level of the game. Not only that but his contribution to your main body of damage is meager.

    Pride and Might merc add damage. There is no denying that. They do add damage to your skeletons. Our goal with this build is not to maximize our damage; but rather, to maximize the damage we do. Act 1 Mercs have Inner Sight. This skill lowers enemy defense. This skill is more valuable than might. Your damage dealt is higher when your enemy has no defense to defend them.
    Now, people love to say, well then use infinity merc. Yes that’s an option and infinity is good. But now I am going to show you the way to have infinity, faith and inner sight as well as a merc who slaughters rather than gets slaughtered.

    Infinity Golem v. Iron Golem

    Before this build, I could not teleport around the game without mediation since my mana was too low and I needed potions. Now with over 1200 mana, I can teleport till the cows come in. Insight golem is out dated for the pros.

    Infinity golem offers the answer to what you all wanted. More auras, more effective skeletons/mages/revives. Conviction is an aura we can all appreciate. It lowers enemy resistance and defense.

    Faith has 6 levels of Fanaticism Over Beast

    Skeletons attack at a fixed frame of attack. Its 15 Frames per second. Beast brings that attack speed up to 14 frames and Faith brings the speed up to 13 frames per second. Effectively, the additional damage the skeletons could do if there was no frame cap is then added to their damage. So Faith Summons attack at the same frame as Beast summons but with the damage level of a higher frame.

    Furthermore, Beast does not do you justice. You lose so many skills and its hard to max resistance with beast. You do not want to lose valuable skill points which help your skeletons for a lower level of fanaticism than faith offers. It’s simply not worth it.
  2. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Why in the world would anyone use a Act1 faith merc instead of using an Act2 might merc with Infinity for conviction...and then you could carry Beast for fanaticism. It makes no sense to me.

    Might + Conviction + Fanaticism + Crushing Blow (from Infinity) + MUCH Higher Merc Dmg > Faith Bow Merc.


    I don't care if Faith has lvl 15 fanat and Beast only has lvl 9...I'll take the lvl 9 if I can have all of the above as well. And seriously...even those of us who could afford it...I would NEVER waste a good polearm like Infinity on an iron golem.
  3. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    8,515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I would use AoKL to summon, then switch to something more useful, like HotO, or even wizard spike. Carin shard doesn't have the resist to make it remotely useful IMO.
  4. handofnaz

    handofnaz IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I'll have to give you props for suggesting the use of a Carin Shard. I do like this wand very much, though I fail to see why an FHR breakpoint is even necessary on a summoner in PVM, and why it would be superior to more convenient combinations of resistances, +skills and FCR, such as Hoto, Spirit, or even Wizardspike. Apart from that, there's little else that I find particularly appealing about this guide.

    It's a fairly accepted fact that Act 2 mercs aren't just walking auras. In most cases, they're a primary source of damage for summoners of all flavours. It's like having a turbo-powered Urdar follow you around, only with his own auras and customised gear.

    How do you propose felling bosses and larger targets with a Faith merc? Surely you don't expect your skellies to do that? Though you could, of course, just grab some Urdars for that very purpose, but still...

    I'm far more comfortable with the cost of resurrecting an Infinity merc slain by IM than having to risk losing a golem made out of such an expensive runeword. 50,000 gold versus two Bers, hardly a commodity on SP, which is a very healthy and active community around here.

    Maxed Golem Mastery is nice and all, but I've had golems simply disappear on me, and not just die. I've had one just poof away in Duriel's Chamber, for example, without even having taken a hit from Duriel. I've also read cases of golems fizzling away between games. It's just not worth the Infinity. Better an Insight for the golem and Infinity on the merc.

    I suppose that a Faith merc would be nice to help your skellies out for smaller games, but how effective would they be in larger ones, even with the Fanat aura? A properly equipped Might merc can take down Lister's pack in 8 player games with few problems.

    Sorry if I seem so critical, but the necromancer forum discusses these issues on a daily basis, and probably every possible iteration of a summoner has already been proposed and dissected here.

    20RS, 20SM and 20CE is an old favourite, something credited to Nightfish, one of our older forumers and a trusted authority on many aspects of the game. Incontestable Greatness just feels like yet another aura-stacking necro build, albeit with somewhat unusual gear choices attached.
  5. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    BTW...something I missed in my previous post...

    Why are you even bothering trying to hit 125 fcr and 86 fhr on a PvM summoner? It is definitely not essential on any necro in PvM to have 125/86 bps...and on a summoner...what spell is a PvM summoner needing to fire off rapidly?

    Skills/resists > fcr/fhr in PvM.

    Ditch the Spirit. Get a boneflame or a darkforce (or homo if you want to max block). Ditch carin shard. You carry it for fhr? Carry a Beast...if you MUST have your faith merc, then carry a Hoto. Get rid of the fcr rings/ammy and throw on some SOJs and a Maras (helps the BO for your minions).
  6. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    6,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    The problem with Fana is that regardless of their attack speed skeletons have a 15 frame delay between each attack. If you run the numbers in the necro pet calc the difference between Fana (Faith) and Might is really not that big.

    I completely dislike the attitude of the guide. It is brought as if the writer is the Messiah descended from JSP heaven to redeem our helpless souls. We already have an excellent summoner guide (or two) here.
  7. mephistophilis

    mephistophilis IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Ok I am going to address several things.

    First of all, the opening sentence of the guide stats this summoner is a caster.

    He is supposed to play the game fast. All you people calling for beast and homunc and all that garbage are missing a key element, people want to play their summoner fast. Otherwise, he is boring. When a character is slow, it becomes frustrating and people move on to something else.

    Act 2 merc is not a merc for damage. There are too many creatures that can own him easily. Skeletons, Udars, and Mages (if you want) are your fighting force.

    That being said. A1 Merc still owns house. She can kill most normal monsters by herself even in an 8 person game.

    Your goal is to get max fcr, good fhr, great life and since we are not using insight golem, great mana for teleporting and casting and using c/e.

    That is why I am using Carin. It is a more well rounded weapon than Hoto and you can get more mana out of a Carin set up since you get 112 out of that at lvl 90 + regenerate from mages, mana from fcr rings, shako, amulet, charms and SPIRIT

    You need spirit to max potential for 125% fcr, good fhr and good res. It also has 2 to all skills to bring down your teleport mana consumption.

    Infinity golem does not die unless you are retarded and let him. With bo + Golem mastery synergy, he is indestructable. Use a low damage scythe and he isnt going anywhere.



    Now lets talk about pet damage stephan.

    Please read more closely, even though there is a cap on frames, you get more damage based on the frame you hit. The break down:

    Say you have lvl 9 Fanat from beast-- thats 14 frames of attack. Say you average 14000 damage per second at 15 frames but you get 16000 damage at 14. SInce there is a cap, the damage you should get from frames is calculated into your damage at 15 frames. Thus, you actually do 16k at 15 frames like you would be doing at 14.

    lvl 15 fanat from faith hits 13 frames on skeletons increasing your damage by a substantial figure.


    This is why I brought you guys this guide.

    You are all so stuck on beast with a2 merc and it bothers me. You aren't using your summoner to your fullest potential
  8. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    6,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Read more closely. There is not a cap, there is a 15 frame *delay*.

    Bring realistic numbers from the pet calc and show us the big difference. Or, shall I do it? Ok:

    level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
    level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

    Well wooptiewoo, that's worth losing an Infinity Golem for.

    Your 'assessment' of an act 2 merc's survivability is also completely off IMHO.
  9. mephistophilis

    mephistophilis IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I usually go from lvl 45 for calculation but thats no matter.

    Cap and delay is semantics...ultimately Bnet just slows them down to reduce lag but my point stands.

    Also, especially for chaos you would need a low damage infinity merc. My principle here is 1 set of gear for every mission.

    if you had 2 infinities (1 high damage for non chaos and 1 low dmg for chaos) that takes up space in your inventory. Also he can die from iron maiden in baal throne. What do you do when you lose might and conv. You have to leave the throne to go get him again. THats more of a pain in the *** to me than anything else.

    Ubers is another thing as well. A1 merc=good to go (as she always is). A2 merc, doesnt do so hot from close range against mephy.


    Bottom line is, this is a 5th edition of this guide. I went from psn/summon hybrid to a2 infinity/beast insight golem to hoto/faith insight golem and I have found the carin/faith merc/infinity golem to be amazing.

    Any fast paced summoner is going to be more fun than one that barely can cast anything. I use 86% fhr for hardcore, that is 1 thing that you might not need unless you are on hardcore I acknowledge that. But otherwise, this character is maximized in potential.
  10. LongingForDeath

    LongingForDeath IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I'm sorry, but this is a huge chunk of BS. I have none of your mentioned "absolutely required" items and I do hell Baal runs just fine. Yes, you will need teleport if you want to do ubers. But that's about the only time you will need teleport.

    You know, this is a kinda funny statement, considering the fact that you're recommending runewords that use runes, which are duped in about 99.9% of all cases.

    That's your personal opinion, to which you are entitled to, but it's not necessarily a fact.

    Granted, my summoner has only +13 to RS/SM, but my Act2 merc kills a lot faster with his Obediance Thresher than my skellies and mages. With his 40% Crushing Blow, he's the one who brings Baal's life down quickly. Not my skellies and mages.


    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that your build isn't any good. I'm quite sure it kicks ***. But it's definitely not the only good/possible way to build a summoner.
  11. mephistophilis

    mephistophilis IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Just fine is probably a standard not up to my par. If you cant teleport, you cant stack and you will find yourself out in front of your army a lot. I cant have that.

    Yeah most runes are duped. We can still blame them for causing lag. they should be on when no one else is anyways.

    Yes it is my opinion, but I think it is shared by many that people dont like slow characters.


    Im not saying its the only possible.

    There are tons of better options if you are not a casting necro. If I wasnt a caster, I would have +3 circ/+3 Ammy, coh or trangs armor, a bunch of mf. I'd have boneflame and Aokl and sojs. My build is a caster summoner expected to be fast and lethal.

    There are several options. I am just saying for a casting Summoner, it doesnt get any faster or better than this set up.
  12. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Caster of what? Tele and curses? Get real guy, you are a summoner, you may be a summoner that has reached the next fastest FCR BP, but you are a summoner none the less.

    Huh? The wand definately is not crap and could be included on a list of "other" viable weapons, but it is a compromise, Hoto and wizzy have more to offer as far as FCR and resists, skills from Hoto lower tele cost and boost CE range. Beast helps your peeps alot more. Have no idea why this wand would be picked as an Uber summoner, er... I mean, caster weapon.

    I do concede that Act2 mercs get owned by IM, it is fairly common knowledge, but nothing else in the entire game kills my merc, even ubers, so I don't know why yours is getting "owned" so much. As far as "meager damage contribution"...are you kidding? Everyone knows that when you get to late game hell it is CE that does the damage, not skellies, and the single best way for a summoner to get that 1st body for the CE chain is with an Act2 merc. The damage per second these guys do compared to act1 merc, including CB (CB is nerfed on ranged attack and act1 mercs can't hold as much anyway), would have to be close to 5 times more. Someone already mentioned this but the difference between fana and might only comes out to like 100 damage per skellie, and the mercs insane damage more than makes up for this. While your zon and skellies are hacking away, I have already blown up the whole screen and moved on to the next. Act2 mercs will probably kill a boss faster by himself than your act1 merc and army combined.

    As far as IM, I use confuse in those situations, if you have to, remove your mercs polearm, these pretty much eliminate the problem. Besides I don't feel that "nerfing" my setup so that I have an easier time with 10% of the game and am significantly slower for the other 90% is such a good idea.

    It is common knowledge that golems do occasionally poof, it just happens, it will happen. Read the forums, it is full of people complaining about iron golems randomly poofing. Infinity is way too expensive to have poof.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  13. mephistophilis

    mephistophilis IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Please re consider the weapon choices. Wizzy and hoto dont offer the amount of mana and life as carin. If you follow my gear selection you hit 125% fcr without the need of a huge fcr weapon.

    Wave 4 minions revived kill baal in seconds. I'd rather summon them for the bosses than have a merc who forces me to use beast.

    every other boss dies in seconds without vives or even 10 skeletons.

    You can either be a running summoner or a caster. If you have nigma, you are a caster, get your fcr up and be a real caster. none of this 48-75% fcr bull****.


    You guys need to try the act 1 merc. You are all way too stuck on act 2 merc and there is no reason. I just showed you how to get every single one of the good auras (fanat, conviction, thorns) and better fanat than with beast.

    Go ahead and step outside the box guys.


  14. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I am not saying that your build is not viable, I am sure that it is. I don't think that anyone is saying that, but this guide is far from uber, as damage and kill speed have not been close to maximized. I believe that is the spirit of everyone critisism.

    What you have shown me is a way to lose an infinity (poofed conviction golem), nerf my killing speed (act1 merc), and use an aura that has been rendered meager by the relationship between monster life and damage(thorns).

    I still do not see how tele makes you a caster, when 90% of your spells are summons, your a summoner...your just in denial. What is the point in tele'ing twice as fast, just to kill 3 times slower?

    I had an act1 faith merc with bramble before I got my infinity. Act2 might merc with infinity is faster, removed the bramble for CoH and didn't lose any killing speed. Thorns isn't what it used to be, besides most things don't live long enough against my act2 merc to even get to taste thorns.

    If you read the forums you will see that most of these things have been tried and tested, many of the posts even have the math to back up the observations, there is a reason why 90% of the people use the same end game gear/setup, because it is the best. It has gotten to the point now where equipment is almost never argued over, it has been so well discussed it just comes down to play style now, hoto vs beast, and homo vs spirit. The only real discussion left for necros is what to max last (DV, mages, golem mastery, or Bone armor) You thinking outside the box has created an interesting and viable build, but you sacrifice too much for FCR and for fear of IM, and damage wise the build is nowhere near uber.
  15. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    6,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Your point was that Faith does a lot more damage than Might, which it really doesn't. So there it goes. The difference between a cap and a delay is far from symantical and you didn't show to understand the delay in your calculation example which is why I put emphasis on the word.



  16. JubalBane

    JubalBane IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I play a lot of what I call "pure summoners" as in I only use summons and curses with out CE or any other poison/bone skill. Resists are really the only "essential" thing. +Skills are great to have but I have finished the game with out them. Teleport is also a great skill to have but not necessary. It makes the maggit layer goes better with Teleport. Otherwise I used self found in game items.

    Also how is this really significantly different from a Fishymancer? IMHO I think your idea is worth a post but not a guide.

    JubalBane
  17. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    8,515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    I suggest go play around with the necro calculator. Check the difference in damage with a faith merc and a might merc + beast. IMO faith merc should go to zons, not necros. (IIRC we can link to this calc, correct me if I am wrong)

    http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/necro_pet_calculator.html

    By the way, where does your anti soul gear come in? Your resist is crap as far as I can tell.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  18. shijo

    shijo IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Making a baseless statement like this is inviting people to work very hard to do just that. Calling your guide "Incontestable Greatness" is ridiculous man. I'm all for you being proud of your build, but when you add a "holier than thou" aspect to your post, that puts people on the defensive from the get-go. If you want people to take you seriously, you really need to avoid those kinds of statements.

    I won't go and re-hash everything Numty or the other folks have said. They have done a great job illustrating what's strong about a summoner when made properly and debating your points.

    The bottom line is that a summoner is a summoner. He's not a sorc that has to cast Frozen Orb at the highest breakpoint. CE is a mass destruction spell, and as such the speed at which you cast it isn't really that important. When you wipe out half the screen with one or two casts, fcr doesn't make things die any faster. The only place FCR has on a summoner is to make enigma effective, and you certainly don't have to hit the highest breakpoint to be effective with teleport. When your act 2 might merc with Infinity turns Baal or DClone into a pile of goo in 30 seconds, you don't have to think much about whether you want to use an act 1 merc with Faith.


    When you realize that a summoner is a summoner and not a caster, the gear choices people make will make a lot more sense. Is your build viable? I would imagine so, or you wouldn't be writing this. But seriously, using a summoner to it's fullest potential? Give me a break. You being stuck on an Infinity golem and a act 1 merc with Faith bothers me.



    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  19. Greyeagle

    Greyeagle IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2004
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    Whether it is for key runs or tele stacking, I cast tele far more often than I cast a summon spell. I wouldn't make an enigma summoner without hitting the 75fcr + 56fhr breakpoints. Tele-stack and ce is a valid play style, and one that benefits greatly from FCR/FHR.

    I'm not knocking anything else you've said, or saying that this guide is great. :)



  20. IntellectSucks

    IntellectSucks IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    233
    Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

    My five cents (adjusted for inflation):

    The reason he is calling it a caster is his play strategy. If you're teleing right into the center of monster packs, you damn well better have that highest breakpoint, as well as a really high break point for FHR. My take is that this necro is about stick and move, stick and move, not insane amounts of damage. Hence the choice of an act 1 merc. It sounds like he is running chaos and baal a lot. Anyone who does that with an Act 2 merc is going to spend a lot of time at Tyrael/Qual Kek. To avoid this, he uses a merc with good damage that is unaffected by IM. I have no doubt in my mind that this build will get that first body or two in seconds or less. Once you have those, the merc is irrelevant.

    THAT said most people will not favor this play style. The easier and safer choice is to use the act 2 merc. With decent life leach and good gear you should only have problems with IM. There are tons of solutions to this problem, not the least of which is just paying 50k to res him. With decent MF and with the amount of time you're spending at town selling your finds, why not use one extra trip every now and then?

    Also the Golem dying is not really the issue most people are bringing up. They're worried that the buggy nature of the game will poof a really expensive item. EVERY Necro who has played with Iron Golem for a decent amount of time has had him poof for no reason before. What good are the godly finds you get with this build if you have something of equal value vanish periodically?

    The way the delay works is the skellies attack at whatever frame rate they have reached, then wait for 15 frames before attacking again. That is why everyone is pointing out the fact that the higher break point for the skellies doesn't increase damage that much.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008

Share This Page