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Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Risingred, Apr 12, 2012. | Replies: 31 | Views: 2526

  1. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Made this video this morning.



    Now, I'm not saying Bashiok is wrong. I'm saying he isn't quite as accurate as we would have liked. I don't think he watched the original video in this thread:

    http://blues.incgamers.com/Posts/10/1/40/819/158147/monster-melee-attack-range#postId_425146


    So, what's the difference between that guy's video and the one I posted in this thread?

    I wasn't lagging at all. No lag whatsoever. This is what the game is supposed to look like when it's running efficiently, and correctly.

    Bashiok was correct about calculating damage/miss/hit, where the animation isn't the deciding factor of whether or not you successfully dodged. But what he isn't correct on is saying that the stuff shown in the video is intentional. It's highly misleading to say it is.

    While technically, yes, it is working as intended, I could argue that no, it isn't being displayed correctly which is the actual issue here. It is wrong to say that a monster can hit you from half a screen away with a melee attack.
  2. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Monster size/type?

    Didn't Flux say in the article comments that this is that exact monster type that relied on telegraphed (i.e. not true melee, but AoE spells at melee range) attacks?
  3. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    That's completely irrelevant to what Bashiok said, which is what I was responding to.
    The original video, the witch doctor and the zombie, reinforces that this is lag. I explained this in a shallow way in the video description, but D3 uses a predictive latency model. The effect of that is that it basically covers up/masks lag to make the game appear to be running smoothly.

    What you see in the video is a loss of sync between character location and damage calculation/display. It's a display error.

    Edit for clarity: According to Bashiok, I should have taken damage from each hit that was swung at me. Not the hits swung at the scenery, which I don't even know why they do that. The damage would have been received and displayed when the unburied's animation finished.


  4. Sulle

    Sulle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Red, if you still don´t have that much lag, then perhaps you could try and make a small video with a zombie like the other guy did?

    I would actually like to see that out of curiousity because I have the feeling that the other guy was lagging a lot, which possibly made the situation seem much worse than it would otherwise have been.
  5. marshmallow

    marshmallow IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    When you submit a bug or issue they often ask for a video of it. Since the guy included a video I think it's likely that Bash watched it. I also think it's likely they've played their own game and know what's working and what's not. Especially something like this you'll notice right away. They're on record as liking sticky targeting and um...sticky receiving damage? So I'm pretty sure it's intentional.

    I think the most ridiculous sticky hitting is the SK's teleport attack. It's almost impossible to reliably dodge, even if you vault away as he disappears.
  6. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    I just made a video of a DH successfully dodging a melee swing from a zombie with 88ms latency.
    I don't have time to upload it, though, I have a meeting to get ready for and school.

    Sure, naturally. Just like how there wouldn't be chat channels and all sorts of other errors from the CMs.

    If Vasadan steps up and says, yes, this is exactly how it is supposed to operate (as per the original video) then I will accept that and ask that they tweak it because it's ridiculous.
    I know I may be wrong, but I have video proof of it otherwise.


  7. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Alright, post that video when you can. Multiple trials if you can, please. I watched the original video, and the Zombie there also missed several times. Not sure, but I think there was a difference in terms of range - when the WD walked closer to the zombie, the hit connected, when he turned away a little earlier, the animation played but no hit occurred.
  8. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    That's precisely the problem. According to Bashiok, our only blue source on this, if the animation plays then it should register a hit and you aren't able to dodge it by moving around.



    The only problem I have with this is when the damage is being displayed or perhaps calculated. If something is going to inflict damage, for the good of the game and taking into account latency, I think it should immediately display/take off health instead of waiting for a cumbersome animation to display. Why? So you can adjust accordingly, pop a pot if you have to, and not make the game "feel" like you're playing through constant lag even if you aren't.

    I don't have time to make anything else at the moment as I have go to. Running late for this crap. :(


  9. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    So, your issue is consistency. I suppose that would be nice to get a clarification on. Go badger Bashiok for an answer on this?

    Maybe its because I am not playing it, but the videos don't make it feel like this is laggy gameplay, though. At worst, feels like there is an unknown under-the-hood mechanic that determines what registers a hit which needs to be repetitively tested to identify (for example, the range/time spent in enemy range hypothesis).
  10. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    I don't see any consistency issue. The two times when the Unburied hit you, even when you moved away was when they used their 2 hit single-target attack. Attacks like this have a fairly large hit range after their animation starts, but they do have a maximum range. This was much more obvious in the zombie vs. WD video. In your video, this is the reason why only the first of the two hits landed on you both times.

    The slam attack of the Unburied is an AoE and all such effects can be dodged easily if you run out of their range, as you did multiple times. The problem I see with this attack is that the only time it hit you you were indeed in range, but behind a column, which means that it doesn't have a line of sight check.

    Bashiok or another CM only has to do one thing. Confirm that there's a maximum range from where single-target attacks can land and all is well and good if you ask me.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  11. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Rising, I can't tell what you are saying here, because both your videos prove exactly what Bashiok (and I) said, that monster normal attacks will always hit when they begin swing animation.

    In your first video those big monsters have a special "mega-hit" ability that is supposed to be dodgable (there are a few monsters that have "big-hit" abilities that are dodgable by design), that's why the "hit-lag" issue doesn't appear in there. In your second video it is clearly doing exactly as Bashiok said, the zombie hits you every time he does a swing.

    You are simply running around the zombie and he doesn't have time to start the swing. That's not what is being said here. You can prevent monsters from swinging by getting out of range BEFORE they start the swing.

    And finally, the first few monsters in the game have different AI to the rest of the game, they are incapable of killing the player. In fact, if you let him hit you many times, they will literally stop hitting you period. Try it out.

    Guys, I don't know why everyone is so confused about this. If a monster BEGINS a melee swing, you will always get hit. This is purposely designed by blizzard to prevent people from permanently running around in circles and attacking without risk of getting hurt, and to prevent people from running past monsters to get to a certain area (remember Diablo 2?). You can however, move out of the way BEFORE it begins the swing. Some monsters have "big-hit" attacks that are designed to be dodgable, hence why it appears to be inconsistent. Latency has NO IMPACT on combat (in normal circumstances) and definitely not on "hit-lag".
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  12. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Azzure, the video clearly shows the zombie doing a swing animation and no hit occurring. Do zombies also have spell like melee attacks?
  13. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    That's more likely because these attacks still have a maximum range. This way increasing your movement speed actually increases your ability to dodge attacks.
  14. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Hardrock, you know what to test next. I assume DH still has Tactical Advantage available?
  15. ABarbarian

    ABarbarian Banned

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Bashiok's post is nothing more than more PR bull****, and is anyone else getting fed up with it?

    The real explanation is that the developers simply are not talented enough to develop a system around the animations of the monster. Instead, they have a basic system in place that is instant, and only dependent on the distance of the player. There is no time variable (each animation would be associated with a time) in their equations, because they simply are lazy and D players. It's that simple, folks.
  16. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Clearly. You saw right through them, AB.
  17. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    The problem is how it synchs on the attack animation, by logic the attack should be tied up with the monsters' animation.

    In Dota its possible for someone with max movespeed to run by and have the melee creeps miss because the character was way too fast for the animation to connect. The people in the official forum are saying this is a bad example because zombies have the slowest attack speed of the game and it will not be that noticiable with the other monsters, but they are forgetting that there might be effects or skills that decrease enemie's attack speed thus making this ugly mechanic even more noticiable as you will experiment this on all other monsters.

    I also heard it was like that on D2, well... I am not sure but I do believe that my Necro with his Clay Golem and Decrepfy could make enemies attack in such a way that I could get by easily, if it was with the same system on D3 I would get hit from like 15-20 yards away because their attackspeed was drastically slowed but yet I got near them 2-3 seconds ago and thus I deserve that highly delayed hit.


    I really dont like this mechanic, its very VERY mmo-ish, its not like a game with "Action" describing its genre should behave. Blizz might as well remove all -monsterattackspeed mechanics because it will look ugly as hell with this system.
  18. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    Can you please link the minute and seconds this occurs? I saw every one of the 4 swings hit.


  19. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    While Diablo is certainly an action game, it's also an RPG. Without this system many defensive stats would possibly become obsolete or at the very least less useful. Meanwhile, increased movement would be a must have stat. You can still dodge these attacks, you just have to treat melee monsters with more respect and keep more distance from them, that is until you have much faster movement speed.

    Watch at 0:15. The WD was in range, the zombie swung and still missed.

    Yep, but I think Vault actually makes you invincible for its short duration. Still, I'll look at it. The Monk's 10% movement speed bonus coupled with a 7% bonus on boots should be a better way to test this.

    EDIT: Nope, Vault only makes you invincible against projectiles, as in they go right through you. Monsters can still hit you with melee attacks.

    EDIT2: Here's the video of my test run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcDeFN6i2PA

    The video demonstrates that it's still very much possible to dodge single-target melee attacks, which is much easier to do with Vault since it's a quick movement. It also shows that you can get hit even during Vault, if your timing is really bad.

    I think this video pretty much confirms that there's a maximum hit range to single-target melee attacks, although I'd still like it if a CM would confirm this as well. The range is larger than in D2, but dodging attacks is not a problem if you keep this in mind or if you have increased movement speed.


    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  20. djxput

    djxput IncGamers Member

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    Re: Monster Melee Range: Not Intentional

    dont know what the vids you showed me - I dont have any issues with the way they are handeling getting hit.

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