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Monk PVP item speculation thread

Discussion in 'Monk' started by Pizzarino, Dec 2, 2012. | Replies: 30 | Views: 8452

  1. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    I don't know about you guys, but I've reached a point with my monk where I can't reliably upgrade anything without camping the AH for a week and spending 200mil per slot. The upgrades do things like scrape up 2% more crit by sacrificing 20 resist all. It's not very exciting to make sidegrades so you do the same act 3 run slightly faster. Soon, extreme PVE farming will no longer be the end game. Creating the best PVP character will be the new goal, changing the most expensive and desirable items rapidly.

    I want to start buying good PVP items now, before anyone else figures it out and demand spikes up. What do these items look like? Without any solid PVP information, the only thing we can do to prepare is speculate on what we know already and look to other Blizzard games.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Resilience

    "Resilience was introduced with World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade as part of the new combat rating system. Previously, no such resilience mechanic existed — as a result, resilience rating only appears on items available to players over level 60, with some rare exceptions. Formerly, resilience reduced the damage taken from critical strikes and spell critical strikes, reduced the chance of suffering a critical strike, and reduced the effect of mana drain spells. Each point of resilience would give a player about 1% less chance to be critically struck.
    Just before the release of World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, Patch 4.0.1 made a dramatic change to resilience. Resilience no longer reduced the chance to receive a critical strike. Each point of resilience provides about 0.01% damage reduction against all damage done by players and their pets or minions."


    Resilience introduced multiple improvements for vanilla WoW's PVP:

    The simple existence of a definitive PVP item property gave players direction. This put players in line with Blizzard's design for high level PVP and made sure they were happy and motivated to build their character within a definitive goal.

    Resilience did not appear on PVE items, the PVP items with it could only be earned by participating in PVP, and if used appropriately made a character extremely powerful in PVP. This separated PVE and PVP gear, making PVE gear more about extreme damage and PVP gear more about defending against players stacking high damage.

    Resilience reduced critical hit rate and critical hit damage, directly attacking the potential for unpredictable spike damage. An arena fight where one team can reliably focus down a single character in an opening cooldown volley/stunlock is NOT FUN. The fight is over befeore it even starts, there is less skill and decision making in a short fight, and there is no value for a spectator.

    To put all of that in perspective, in pre-arena WoW a Blackwing Lair geared rogue could ambush crit a cloth class for over 1500 in the first hit of a 1v1 fight. Those classes would have around 3000 life if they didn't have access to raid level gear. With the resilience stat on more accessible PVP gear, players without the raid gear could earn the stats necessary to avoid a humiliating instant death. The accomplished PVE geared players would see themselves getting into longer fights against players with PVP gear, and in turn want to focus on PVP stats themselves because they've already lost the unfair advantages of the PVE gear. Meanwhile, Blizzard approves of the more interesting and skill intensive PVP game.

    In Diablo 3, critical hits have an even more dramatic effect. Compared to pre-arena WoW, an equivalently geared D3 character has 2x the critical rate and over 4x the critical damage. Critical hit chance and damage are the most important stats to collect to make a fast farming PVE character and inflate character sheet damage. When paired with life steal, the enormous life replenishment from critical hits eclipses most defensive stats.

    http://d3db.com/news/id/324-patch-105-datamined-changes/
    http://d.163.com/12/0924/15/8C65NUFU00314LE2.html

    These posts have a few unused assets from the game put in for 1.0.4. The floor layout images resemble PVP arenas, so the other unused bits could be PVP related as well. These banner details added for 1.0.5 are almost certainly on reserve for PVP accomplishments.

    What interests the most are the unused sapphire (blue) and diamond (white) gems.

    http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/jay-wilson-on-special-pvp-gear

    As hinted here, Blizzard doesn't want to add entirely new items for the PVP patch. They've already used the grind-and-replace-your-entire-set-of-items-with-new-drops gimmick once in 1.0.4. As a player, I would be upset if all of my best items suddenly didn't matter again, wouldn't you? Why would doing more of the same PVE content and grinding for items be the only way to get competitive in PVP?

    Gems as PVP rewards make more sense in comparison. Existing useful items won't become obsolete and socketing in gems with PVP relevant stats give players the sort of easy customization that defines Diablo 3. Earning a gem per PVP win would give a character a reward unavailable in PVE while collecting, upgrading, and wearing the account/character bound gems lets everyone else know exactly how many player kills the account/character has.

    What kind of stats might these gems offer?

    For helm/armor:
    Reduction to incoming crit chance and damage
    Reduction to damage by players
    Armor
    Resist all
    Passive life regeneration
    Reduction to crowd control effects

    For weapons:
    Change for a snare/stun/disable effect on hit
    Attack speed bonus
    Class-appropriate resource bonus
    Life steal


    Current gems offer none of these stats, even the extremely obvious resist all and armor bonuses. Reduced critical hit effects and reduced damage reduction from players have the highest chance to appear on a PVP reward, given WoW's example. I find it hard to imagine a stable or fun PVP in Diablo 3 system without them. If PVP fights last longer without the brutal 400% critical hit spike damage, passive life regeneration or resource regeneration become more important. The crowd control on hit and reduction of crowd control properties already exist in the game and also could become extremely annoying if stacked against other players.

    Life steal deserves special mention. Although It would makes sense as a useful socketable property, it may not fit in with PVP. Diablo 2 cuts damage by 1/6 in PVP. If Blizzard wants to draw out D3 PVP fights even longer, they may apply an overall damage reduction like this on top of any resilience effect. Life steal only beats life on hit in PVE when stacked with critical hit stats. Both life steal and LOH would lose to passive life regen if you're kiting or getting kited by another player.

    So given all of that nonsense, what might speculative PVP items look like NOW?

    [​IMG]

    Tasker and Theo come with 45-50 to every stat, high attack speed, 2 random properties, and a socket you can't get form any other glove. This version uses the two random properties for a glove specific 175+ dex stat and a high res all roll. Focusing on attack speed as a more important property than critical hit modifiers let a character skillfully attack and move faster in the PVP arena, an ability that can't be nerfed by the resilience stat that might come from the socket. Attack speed also has the added bonus of making it easier for a monk to regain spirit or tag someone with a random on hit crowd control effect. Check the AH right now, these gloves are dirt cheap. As a bonus, they are also bright turquoise and look really stupid on your character.

    [​IMG]

    The Fist of Az'Turraq has one random property with no innate life steal, socket, or critical hit damage. It doesn't fit in for practical PVE builds. If critical hit damage is no longer a hard requirement, The Fist starts looking really good. 1250-1300 DPS and that kind of attack speed is extremely hard to beat. The innate spirit regen and chance to stun modifier are difficult to fit in other slots. This version has an additional chance for knockback as the random property, but a socket may be the best option if a PVP gem offers a better weapon property. Life steal as a modifier may be a waste when compared to better options for replenishment in PVP. Even the best versions of this weapon top out at a relatively cheap 20mil on the AH.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    The Endless Path set, also cheap on the AH, doesn't seem that great on the surface. Thorns damage? Magic find? Can the +100 vitality set bonus really make up for that? The 2 random properties on both the ring and the amulet fit in two dex/vita dual mods and some combination of resists, armor, attack speed, or life on hit. The most important things about these items are huge life regeneration bonuses, the % life, crowd control reduction, and the precious movement speed. Oh yes, maximum movement speed will be important no matter what you're up to in PVP. You have boots, Lacuni bracers, and this set. The no innate vita/resists on Inna's pants are not acceptable for PVP. This set is what you want to pair with Lacunis to get a movement speed requirement off the boot slot and wear...

    [​IMG]

    Ice Climbers, rather unfortunately, are already a best in slot PVE item. Their 3 random properties, lack of movement speed, and 0 vitality make them extremely dependent on rolls. The good ones, like the on sale for 1bil gold pair shown here, are expensive for a reason. I'm fairly confident the socket and 10-12% life stats, which cannot be found on any other boots, make them the best possible PVP boots.
  2. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Or, the current Blizzard game, Diablo 3. The most important question isn't "What happened in WoW?" — it's "What kind of build would you use for D3 PvP?" And the answer to that question, in part, relies on "What kind of build will other classes (and other Monks) be using for PvP?"

    One of the biggest problems will be the Demon Hunter. With Tactical Advantage, Vault, Preparation, and access to plentiful Discipline (full Nat's, Stone of Jordan, Xephirian Amulet), the DH is a 184% movespeed, Hungering-Arrow spewing, Sentry-laying threat. Although DH might prove not to be the best PvP class, it nevertheless sets the highest bar for PvP entry — you need to be able to chase and ultimately destroy a very mobile target before it can snipe you with off-screen attacks, or just concede your matches against that class (gearing up against other classes which can beat a DH).

    Barbarians can keep up the pace with Unforgiving, full IK set, and Marathon, with help from a smorgasbord of cooldown options (Wrath of the Berserker, Charge, Leap, and Ancient Spear, just to name a few). More likely than not, Barbarians will find a way to catch up to the arrow-slinging menaces and dispatch them.

    Witch Doctors also have a glimmer of hope due to the durability of their pets. Assuming the pet mechanics don't change, Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan can both soak up huge amounts of Hungering Arrow and Sentry damage. With reduced cooldowns on their damage sponges, there's a good chance the DH couldn't break through the defenses, at least not without risking getting close and becoming subject to opposing voodoo.

    I see no hope for Wizards. Sad really. So the big three try to balance their matchups; for example, DH has DHvDH, DHvB, and DHvWD to worry about.

    So where do Monks fit in all this? One particularly amazing trick against DH is Hand of Ytar, a single-target no-cooldown long-range 80% movement debuff. Of course, this still only works if they're on-screen. Although Monks don't have anything of Sprint's caliber, you can gear a Monk for 168% movement speed if you went all-out.

    Against other Monks? They'll Hand of Ytar you right back, so you'll either need to out-Ytar them at range or have more movement than them. Against Witch Doctors? You'll want to close as fast as possible, since Ytaring them is a contest you'd probably lose. So you pretty much want high movespeed in all matchups. Barbs might be an exception, they'll probably come to you; a specialist MvB build might forsake runspeed.

    However, in general, we can predict the PvP monk will be using radically different skills and equipment from the PvE monk. Tempest Rush, Hand of Ytar, Fleet Footed, maybe some Skorns (although I think 1h + shield would be more likely).
    When you do huge amounts of damage, life leech gains a huge amount of life... but when your opponents do huge amounts of damage, a huge amount of life is a small amount of life. Healing yourself for 3% damage isn't going to be too much different from doing 3% additional damage — in other words, not that great of a mod at all, and easily trumped by something like 4% extra damage against elites (players are elites).
    Pure speculation. It's more likely these were in an early build of the game and discarded for simplicity.
    According to Diablo3Ladders.com, the highest EHP barb has 4111488.25 unbuffed EHP, which with 197466 life means that his post-Impunity EHP is somewhere around 5.9 million. Pit him against the top DPS Demon Hunter, with his effective 461274.775 DPS with Hungering Arrow, and he should be able to withstand over 12 seconds of continuous damage, or about 22 Hungering Arrows. I think real-life-barb will have less EHP and more DPS, but at the same time real-life DH will have less DPS and more EHP, so I think it's safe to say that this is a relatively accurate measure of how long combat will take under the current system, which isn't too fast at all.
    Nope.
    This makes Tempest Rush cost 15.4 Spirit/second to channel, which might be too much; furthermore, the advice against crit chance is really pure speculation and not very good advice. You could probably find better rare Demolishers or Echoing Furies or just rare fists. These Fists might still be worth something though, at least they come close.
    Nope. I think 2-piece Nat's (boots and ring) and Stone of Jordan are what we're looking for here, although I could be wrong about the Nat's. Not the SoJ though, other players are elites and you want spirit for Tempest Rush, making the ring stupid good.
    Like I said, 2-piece Nat's. Nope.
  3. pulli

    pulli IncGamers Member

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    Dashing strike works as big as your screen is.. if you use 4 monitors you can simply dash to the demon hunter. Though the demon hunter can "evade" it by simply walking away if you come from large distances, you DO close the gab and eventually catch him.. Add a rune like "slow" to it so if someone accidentally walks towards you he is at least slowed.


    Then a dash (root 3 sec) + 4 sec stun from flash + continuos knockbacks from thunderfist should be enough to keep that monster in place..

    Now it is just a matter of finding the right skills to do some nuke-type damage that the demonhunter can't heal up with loh.. Maybe bell + 7ss?
  4. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Although it costs too much disc for them to spam it, any stunlock routine can be interrupted by their Smoke Screen (it's pretty much a zero-cooldown 1-second Serenity). Relying on CC effects is probably not wise.
  5. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    First up, I'm not looking to make speculations for good PVP skills. Go to the official battle.net forums if you want to get hit by that scatter shot.


    Those characters are not useful for speculation They probably won't be very good for PVP, either. Ultra-stacking EHP to create an online profile trophy character means you don't have to think about damage, life replenishment in any form, or movement speed. This character might not even be able to lay hands on a real PVP character. While the maxed damage DH is probably closer to a practical character, stacking those stats risk getting hit by other unknown factors in PVP. The biggest ones, like I made this post to discuss, are global damage reductions (Diablo 2) and PVP specific defensive stats (WoW).

    Look really hard at that 650%+ critical hit damage. Do you think that is fair? Do you think that is fun? Do you think the development and testing people at Blizzard load up characters like that and have a good time fighting 1 hit kill hungering arrow vs hungering arrow duels? Do you, or anyone else, want the absolute top end of PVP to play like that? Is that game worth playing? Most players want to build their characters to max out their character sheet damage using critical hit stats, and a resilience effect must exist to make PVP tolerable.

    For day 1 PVP I'd favor a lower damage DH sitting on a high-end legacy Natalya set anyway.

    If you want a slightly better number = PVP power estimation, check out the hero score and PVP dummy rankings on diabloprogress.com. Even though those factor EHP and damage into the same equation, I still wouldn't take them too seriously. The extremely simple equations behind them (as well how you seem to think of it) requires two characters to unload their full damage on each other uninterrupted. This means standing perfectly still, no use of active defensive skills, and no utility from resource management or crowd control effects. There's going to be a lot of kiting in PVP and there's no way to speculate on tactics or skills until we actually play it and see what happens.

    My guesses on items depend on my guesses on PVP system changes. The new systems will set new priorities for stats on items, making some items that are cheap now suddenly valuable. If you think nothing will change, that % damage to elites will work on players, and all the best items now will stay the best items after PVP, that's a fine guess too.

    If anyone else has other guesses on item stat or system changes that would change how you would want to gear a character for PVP, I would like to see them!
  6. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    Quoted for irony.
    OK Chicken Little.
    Legacy Nat's? Understandable. Low damage? Unfathomable.
    OK. Using PvP dummy rankings, the best barb has 3,828,947.04 buffed EHP, vs top DH HA DPS of 286240.85, means the barb could take 13.37 seconds of HA before falling (or about 25 individual arrows).

    My initial prediction was unreliable? :scratchchin:
    People don't kite now?
  7. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    Your prediction was extremely short sighted and misleading.

    #1 heroscore barb: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/pseudomonas-2856/Pseudomonas/15971258

    versus

    The DH you used as an example (#2 heroscore): http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/neogeohunter-2102/Mitsurugi/5644989

    99481 DPS vs 461984 DPS
    2658991 EHP vs 348579 EHP


    If both go toe to toe, with all else equal, without an attempt to include passives, without an attempt to consider DPS through individual active skills, and with the simplest equation we can possibly use (EHP/enemy damage = seconds to live), the DH will kill the barb in 5.8 seconds. The barb will kill the DH in 3.5 seconds.

    Even with this oversimplified example, defensive stats look a bit more important than pure damage.

    Lets introduce some kiting. Both characters are using a Vile Ward with 250 life regen per second. If the DH tries to kite the barbarian and regain some discipline, both characters stop taking damage and start slowly healing. When damage resumes, both sides gained the same about of HP back but the barb actually gained the most EHP because the life he gained gets protected by the high armor, resists, and shield block he has over the DH. He's already winning the fight on EHP, but because the ranged class attempted to kite him he's winning by an even wider margin.

    Let's introduce a 2 second stun proc effect, which both characters get exactly once in the fight. When the stun hits, the barb can hit the DH for 2/3.8 = 52% of total life. The DH can only hit the barb for 2/5.8 = 34% of total life. The stun proc helps the lower damage, higher EHP character more.

    If your written text is shorter than the quoted text, please don't reply.
  8. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Gonna hijack here because I'm legit curious and don't have the means to freely acquire and test, but how much better is Nat boots + Ring vs Ice Climbers / Rare? Assuming both have SoJ since I'd like to boost FoT any way.

    I do have Ice Climbers (pretty good defensive-wise), but no Nat's, and they're currently out of budget (as are godly rare and soj :S ). If I had to guess, it's the crit bonus, but the ring's just really unimpressive to me. It seems like it needs pricey rolls to compete to a rare with the IAS/res/crit (LoH and Cdamg% would be gravy) I've been looking for in a ring. Boots are good, but I'm not totally wrapped up in max movement (Inna's Temperance are a definite at least). I plan on a dodge stacking char, and Dashing Strike will be a bit of my mobility anyway (though not all of it, since I feel that'll cripple me). TBH, my planning method has been oriented toward taking on other melee and show a Barb is like a Hdin: godly PvM, sucks PvP. I did the same with my Assassins, so it's a habitual bleed over. :( VS the kitey characters, I'll likely have to mix it up and use tempest in there + Dashing, but I'll see later on.


    I definitely have what seems like a solid PVP monk's skills in order, but I would like to know the ins and outs of "Best in Slot" to maximize my potential and see if it works rather than be crippled my me own gear :p



    EDIT: While I'm at it, thoughts on Dual wield with dodge (more Crit damage/LoH/Steal), or Shield (res/life/armor/crit)?
  9. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    The difference between D2 and D3 is that the hammerdins can just respec at will, swap out 2-3 items, and be a FoH/smiter. I really have no prediction at all to what class will be best or what builds will be useable. We actually don't even know the format for PVP yet. 1v1? With followers? Teams? Best 2 out of 3 and a health globe drops when you die? I just want to look big picture and see if the way we value items will change when fighting other players. Make a solid guess, by something under on the AH for under 1mil, and see what happens. I have all the items I used in the top post. I even got these today...

    [​IMG]

    Nats boots + ring are pretty good, but I'd only consider them PVP worthy with super perfect rolls. That means the high dex innate roll and a dex/vita random mod on the boots and a vita/resist/crit damage roll on the ring. Go ahead and search for the boots with over 230 dex and 75 vita and see what that looks like. Even with these super expensive versions you'll be going in to PVP wearing two pieces with under 100 vitality. If that set bonus is at all impacted by PVP system changes you're better off and wildly more cost effective with rares.

    For shields, buy now. Get the best one you can possibly find. There's almost no demand and it probably won't cost that much.
  10. Crensh

    Crensh IncGamers Member

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    Interesting read. I have been recently looking into this matter my self. I am currently browsing ah for items that would be useful for pvp too. Mainly my focus is on cc affixes. Also for quite a while now I have been picking up rate shields which I would leave behind earlier on.
    While we are on the boots and ring topic I think that you cant go wrong with a nat set and pretty much you can buy both for 150mil. Now if you would like to go for ice climbers and rare ring I believe you could boost your dmg for sure but the cost rises highly.
  11. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    For 150mil you'd need to get an OWE resist as the random mod on the boots and make some serious compromises with the ring. The 2 piece is certainly the most efficient way to get damage out of the two slots and if you get perfect rolls you can bring up the defensive stats. With other rares you can start with much higher defensive stats for the same price and upgrade for offense.

    http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=65476753
  12. Mefet

    Mefet IncGamers Member

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  13. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    So it's reply time and the first thing that hits me is "Heroscore? I was using PvP dummy! I smell selection bias." So I look up heroscore and notice that pizzarino was using a stat that 1) uses hidden coefficients everywhere and 2) inexplicably square-roots EHP, which is more important than DPS for PvP barbs. So I start typing up a post to theorycraft-hammer pizzarino and suddenly something else hits me: If diabloprogress uses heroscore as a complete sham stat, how are they calculating EHP?

    A quick Google later and I get this, and I develop a real worry that I've been arguing for the wrong side. EHP is a key stat I've been depending on in my predictions; it's also a component of the PvP-dummy stat I've been using. Their evaluation of block rate's contribution to EHP seemed completely arbitrary, but was it really that far off?

    Some math is in order. Without further ado, here are our players, all pulled from diabloprogress:
    some Taiwanese person, the highest DPS DH
    Revrac, the highest PvP-dummy character worldwide, who happens to be a DH, and
    PhongKa, the highest PvP-dummy barb (and right behind Revrac in the listings)

    Taiwan
    Average damage per attack, Hungering Arrow edition: 247,228
    Average damage per non-crit/crit: 48,786/351,751
    Crit chance: 65.5%
    Hungering Arrows per second, including pierce returns: 3.66
    EHP including dodge chance: 799,146

    Revrac
    Average damage per attack, Hungering Arrow edition: 190,557
    Average damage per non-crit/crit: 43,171/288,814
    Crit chance: 60.0%
    Hungering Arrows per second, including pierce returns: 3.08
    EHP including dodge chance: 1,979,480

    PhongKa
    Average damage per attack, Bash edition: 102,473
    Bashes per second: 1.74
    EHP multiplier including Impunity, excluding dodge chance but before shield blocks: 23.66
    Real EHP including dodge chance ONLY: 155,244
    Diabloprogress's reported "EHP": 6,331,248
    Block chance: 56%
    Average block amount: 4206

    Taiwan vs Revrak
    Taiwan can withstand 4.19 average shots, estimated time-to-die 1.36 seconds.
    Revrak can withstand 8.01 average shots, estimated time-to-die 2.19 seconds.
    Verdict: The smart money's on Revrak, although DHvDH is going to be very, very fast and anything could happen. The "2-shot kill zomg" sky isn't falling quite yet, but it's still fast enough to be mildly concerned.

    Taiwan vs PhongKa
    Unblocked damage taken per non-crit/crit: 2,062/14,867
    Average unblocked damage: 10,449
    Blocked damage taken per non-crit/crit: 0/10,661
    Average blocked damage: 6,983
    Average damage overall: 8,508
    PhongKa's match-specific EHP: 4,511,126 (overreported by 40.3%)
    PhongKa can withstand 18.25 average shots, estimated time-to-die 4.99 seconds.
    Taiwan can withstand 7.80 average shots, estimated time-to-die 4.48 seconds.
    Verdict: Wow, almost no chance for PhongKa to win this. I guess he still could, but his approach to our Taiwanese friend would have to be an epic, damage-free display of mastery. Well over 90% of the time the DH would take the win.

    Revrak vs PhongKa
    Unblocked damage taken per non-crit/crit: 1,825/12,207
    Average unblocked damage: 7,325
    Blocked damage taken per non-crit/crit: 0/8,001
    Average blocked damage: 4,801
    Average damage overall: 5,912
    PhongKa's match-specific EHP: 5,003,862 (overreported by 26.5%)
    PhongKa can withstand 26.26 average shots, estimated time-to-die 8.53 seconds.
    Taiwan can withstand 19.32 average shots, estimated time-to-die 11.10 seconds.
    Verdict: Since Revrak has more Pvp-dummy than PhongKa in addition to range, this wasn't really a fair fight to begin with. I think the barb's only chance is that Revrak hits a severe lag spike at a critical moment.

    What this data says is that diabloprogress.com greatly overreported EHP (and thus also PvP-dummy) for top-level barbarians, so I greatly exaggerated their durability. If their EHP data was reality, PhongKa would have lasted 10.8 seconds, pretty much as I predicted, but unfortunately not close to reality.

    The data also brought to light how effective blocking is for melee against non-crits, as well as the importance of a high crit chance to shield-break. A huge chunk of pizza's original post was about efforts Blizzard might take to allow defenses against high crit chance, and after working on the models that concern doesn't seem crazy at all.

    I apologize to pizzarino for trying to disprove him with faulty data. For someone without my love of math, pizza's predictions were surprisingly insightful; he may scour the net for favorable data when he gets in a debate, but I'm guilty of the same. Furthermore, as someone who loves flogging the data I should have known better than to not question my sources.

    On the that note, diabloprogress.com sucks, you should never trust them, and getting top ranked by them for any "complex" stat (including all 3 I used in my expample) should mean little or nothing to anyone.
  14. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the detailed reply. After your first reply I thought this thread was going full trainwreck, but now we're back!

    I didn't really try to do a lot of math or independent research; I'm speaking from personal experience in other games. I had the best possible, best in slot everything PVE gear on my character for most of vanilla WoW in my server's top raiding guild. When the PVP honor system came out with high warlord gear, it couldn't beat my PVE gear. When they updated the rewards months later it still couldn't beat what I already had. It was only at the very end of vanilla WoW, when they finally introduced the resilience stat, that I actually wanted to swap out a piece of pure damage PVE gear for a defensive PVP reward item.

    A more recent personal experience was me posting my monk's profile on a battle.net forum thread asking for any suggestions for gear improvements. I was wearing gear to rank me top 30 US in EHP for monks, such that only 4 other characters on diabloprogress.com had both higher damage and higher EHP than I did. Someone said that with so many defensive stats, I should consider dual wielding over the shield I won in early 1.0.4 on a 30mil bid...

    [​IMG]

    Economics is closely related to math, and something tells me defensive items are in extremely low demand right now. Jay Wilson has already teased that the best PVP items are already in the game waiting to be discovered. What else can we discover RIGHT NOW?
  15. Ban Jo

    Ban Jo IncGamers Member

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    EHP can't be upgraded heavily with buffs. DPS can. This is the main whole difference.


    I like balanced toon, and I will use one for pvp, but my goal is 180kdps unbuffed with 25% won khim lau (echoing fury main hand ofc).


    As a side, I'll mix max ehp using a 8% 190dex/75vit/70+ar zuni feet, 90dex/250vit zuni chest and trifecta pox. This will give me close to 200 free AR for almost nothing and costed me lower then 500m compared to the 4b+ that you need just to have perfect nata feet/boost and is WAY MORE balanced. I had a pretty brillant discussion on us boards with awesome feedbacks. You're just looking in the wrong pleaces.

    I also like to be "pvp balanced" but you're looking at the wrong items, wrong stats and underrating dps TOO MUCH.

    ps: oh and I had some of the best geared monks telling me that zunimassa 3 peaces was an hidden treasure :V
  16. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    I do think the number crunching is healthy, but ultimately it'll have to be up to the arena. There were plenty of times that numbers would dictate a duel in D2, but it was often overcome (Sin vs Barb, NEc vs Sorc, Smiter vs Hdin, etc.)

    I pretty much knew, but this is the nail in the coffin for me: my DPS and EHP are seriously lacking XD. Those guys have crazy stats. Back to the grind...
  17. Pizzarino

    Pizzarino IncGamers Member

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    3 piece Zuni's on a Monk is actually a good suggestion.

    The point of a level 63 set or legendary is you get an item that compares to a 6 property rare. Some items give you stats that would otherwise not appear on the slot and less overall properties, like the 4 property Stone of Jordan. Some legendaries give 7 properties, like Echoing Fury. Sets will usually give 6 and the set bonus gives an equivalent to a 7th. In this case we have a set where int will always appear as a relatively useless stat across 3 pieces and as one of the set bonuses.

    Will Zunis with focused random rolls for a Monk compare to ideal rares? Assume 75% rolls on everything. Also we're not going completely over the top on stat selection. No trifecta rings and both sets have one +armor and one life regen mod in them somewhere.

    Zunimassa's Trail:
    8% elemental damage
    18 resist all from int
    83 vita
    12% movement speed
    256 life regen (random mod)
    150 dex (random mod)

    Zunimassa's Marrow:
    18 resist all from int
    83 vita
    78 resist all
    162 dex from 3 socketed perfect stars
    75/75 dex/vita (random mod)
    300 armor (random mod)

    Zunimassa's Pox:
    9 resist all from int
    68 resist all
    33% crit damage
    8% attack speed (random mod)
    45 OWE resist (random mod)
    75/75 dex/vita (random mod)

    Set Bonuses:
    13 resist all from int
    55 resist all

    VERSUS

    Rare Boots:
    150 dex
    75/75 dex/vita
    60 resist all
    45 OWE resist
    ??? life regen
    12% movement speed

    Rare Chest:
    150 vita
    75/75 dex/vita
    162 dex from 3 socketed perfect stars
    45 OWE resist
    60 OWE resist
    300 armor

    Rare Ring
    8% attack speed
    37% critical hit damage
    45 OWE resist
    359 LOH
    75/75 dex/vita
    9% life

    Adding all that up on a spreadsheet the rare set has +75 dex, +59 vita, +4% crit damage, +9% life, and +359 LOH. The Zuni set has +49 resists, and +8% elemental damage. This is a good value if you manage to snipe unwanted monk Zunis off of the AH!
  18. Koldfeat

    Koldfeat IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for making this thread Pizzarino, the possibility of good pvp in D3 is just about the only intriguing aspect of the game right now. On to my thoughts:

    Starting with what we (think) we know about PvP.

    It is going to be team format, probably 2v2 minimum, not 1v1 so synergy is more important in my mind than how X class duels Y class.

    It is probably going to be timed deathmatch style, resurrection after death, total kill count in X minutes wins or possibly best kill count to deaths ratio (not as likely).

    It is going to take place in a limited size arena, almost certainly approx the size of the boss arena's, Magda's being on the small side, Azmodans being on the large. It is going to be rather crowded in a 4 v 4 game I think. There will certainly be kiting, but not to the extent you can kite now in PvE.

    The damage output will not be anything close to theoretical E DPS numbers. For so many reasons. So much so that even discussing the numbers as theoretical starting points seems almost futile. Those numbers are based on mindless, no armor, no resist mobs, with no CC or attempts to avoid damage at all ever. Those numbers aren't even against elites, that sometimes at least mimic defensive CC and cuts your dps in half right there. And as Pizzario rightly points out, if the damage is too high Blizzard will nerf it or will provide a mechanic for pvpers to easily nerf it. Period.

    Maybe some disagree, but I think the starting point for any pvp gear discussion has to be that raw damage will not be terribly high.

    Given that I'm looking at life-steal as going from an extremely valuable pve stat to a useless pvp stat.
    I'm also thinking life regen is going to be the one of the most valuable stats in pvp though it is fairly cheap to get now. Same for life-on-hit for monks. I don't see all resist as being a crucial pvp stat the way it is in pve. All resist is needed in pve because of the "standing in fire" aspect of many elite modifiers. Us players don't have many abilities that operate the same way, say Arcane enchanted does. You will want some AR, but not stacking it the way we do in pve.

    Will CC be overtly powerful and CM frost nova wizards rule the day? I'm curious how Blizz will address the "stun-locked" issue in pvp. They have learned from WoW that when players click buttons and nothing happens players get frustrated and stop playing pvp, so I can't believe that CC builds will be the be all end all of PvP. They already invested in the _reduce CC_ modifier so I think they will utilize it and that stat will go from zero to fairly valuable.

    Those are some of my current thoughts on pvp, hope it keeps this discussion going.
  19. Dethklok

    Dethklok IncGamers Member

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    I actually undertook a pretty massive project to try to mathematically determine best-in-slot gear for PvP. Unfortunately, this resulted in a failure, as I actually overtaxed the computing power of Microsoft Excel. (It was impossible to compute without including circular references of some kind.) I mean I learned how to create my own Excel formulas in an attempt to solve this (on the bright side, having to only type =dodge(487) to find the dodge chance for 487 Dex is pretty handy from here on in).

    However, although they're not definitive, I have some results. Koldfeat pretty much has the right idea.
    • You can get really, really impressive defenses based off life regeneration per second, as Koldfeat says; however, since all resistances (or at least physical resist, it depends a bit on class balance) and armor multiply the effect of this lifegain, they are also very valuable. Let's just say a Demon Hunter with very good rare gear could be gaining 100k EHP per second purely from life per second. That means someone with only 100k DPS wouldn't be able to kill this guy while he's AFK, except through a serious of RNG miracles. Granted, a DH assembling that gear would have a very high budget, but a Monk? He gets the 30% damage reduction class bonus, access to OWE (although I did use Perfectionist in the DH example), can use a shield (DH didn't), etc. Combine that with the ability to manually avoid attacks, and Blizzard might have to nerf PvP damage upward if battles end up lasting so long it becomes boring.
    • Life steal, while not amazing, isn't horrible. It's pretty much the same as straight-up % damage; 3% more damage doesn't make the Top 6 Random Mods list, but it'll be a factor in budget gear.
    • Speaking of top 6 Random Mods, Bonus vs Elites works against other players. On weapons, the random mod is (kinda) tied for #6, just good enough to place (behind +dmg, %dmg, socket, crit damage, and dex/vit; it narrowly edges out pure dex and pure vit bonuses; life-on-hit can be better, depending on proc rate). The 30% damage bonus from Stone of Jordan is HUGE...
    • ...and in the case of Monks, enough to make it best-in-slot ring, due to the interaction with Life Per Spirit Spent.
    • CC builds will be very good but not overpowered. Most every class has a way to escape (Wrath of the Berserker, Serenity, Smoke Screen) but will have trouble using it continuously. With high expected round length, eventually those abilities won't be usable anymore and a CC character would achieve stun-lock for a bit. However, eventually those resources will regenerate, allowing for a combo breaker, and CC characters would still have to overcome the effect of life regen against characters who focus on that, meaning a certain minimum DPS would be required.
  20. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

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    also i wouldnt be suprised if 1.07 or 1.10 comes with alot of balance changes for the purpose of PVP - i dont think that any kind of PVP with the current 1.05 balance would be any kind of fun beyond the first day.

    also - there has to be something which takes them so incredibly long to implement.

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