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Max. Chance To Block confusion

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by aoirira, Dec 2, 2012. | Replies: 27 | Views: 4707

  1. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Hello. :)

    I have found out these information, and I made a conclusion, which seems a little bit annoying to me. That is why I want to prove or disprove it here.

    Max. chance to block is 75%.
    Source: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/characters.shtml - section Blocking

    Formula for chance to block is:
    Total Blocking = (Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)
    (I assume that „Total Blocking“ means „Chance to Block“, am I right?)
    Source: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/characters.shtml - section Blocking

    Max. level your character can reach is level 99.
    Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080116220906AArh1oJ

    Max. attribute points you can get to allocate should be approxiamtely 505 points.
    Source: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15443409815&sid=3000 – user Therealbrowser

    I wanted to play as a Necromancer, using the set called Trang-Oul’s Avatar. Because one part of the set is Trang-Oul’s Wing, which is basically a shield, I decided to go for max. Chance to Block.
    The item Trang-Oul’s Wing has „+ 30% Increased Chance Of Blocking“.
    Source: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/sets/sets7.shtml#trangouls

    I wanted to know how high Dexterity would I need on the latest level to achieve max. block with this item set.
    So, using the formula above: 0.75 = (0.30 * (Dexterity - 15)) / (99 * 2)
    Dexterity would need to be 505. Because that is the maximum allocable amount of attribute points and because Necromancer already has 25 Dexterity on start, you would have ONLY 25 ATTRIBUTE POINTS TO ALLOCATE SOMEWHERE ELSE THAN TO DEXTERITY, IF YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE MAXIMUM BLOCK AT LEVEL 99 WITH NECROMANCER AND TRANG-OUL’S AVATAR SET.

    This seems really strange to me. Is it really like that? If yes, what do you think? Does it pay off? If it does not, how should one make it so that it would pay off? … Just post any ideas.

    Also, does investing atribute points in Dexterity raise Chance to Block more efficiently (more quickly) for some classes than for others? (like e. g. with Vitality, where Sorceress receives less Life Points for every point of Vitality spěny than Barbarian ) It does not seems so from the formula, but – just to be sure. I am asking because of this, which I found the first and second link above: „The block value itself is a combination of a value inherent to that particular player class, and any other block bonuses from items.“ What does it mean „block value is inherent to particular player class“? And does „block value“ in this case also mean „Chance to Block“?

    Any help appreciated. :)
  2. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Total Blocking = (Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)
    TB = (B*(D-15))/(CL*2)
    TB*(CL*2)=B*(D-15)
    TB*(CL*2)/B=(D-15)
    TB*(CL*2)/B + 15 = D

    Total blocking cap is on 75% as stated. So, we get formula:

    D=150*CL/B + 15, meaning

    Dexterity needed for max block = (150*character level)/blocking + 15, rounded up

    Character level = 99
    Chance to block (Trang Oul's Wing) = 60%

    Dex needed for max block at level 99 is 262,5, so you need 263 dexterity to achieve max block with that shield with necro on level 99.
  3. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    You made a mistake there. Let me show you:

    TB*(CL*2)=B*(D-15) - now you have to divide the left part with B, but you have to divide the whole term, not only (CL*2)

    So in the next step it is like this: (TB*(CL*2))/B=D-15
    And then: D=(TB*(CL*2))/B+15

    With this corrected formula, dexterity required for Necromancer's max. block at level 99 with Trang-Oul's Wing is as follows:

    D=(TB*(CL*2))/B+15
    D=(0.75*(99*2))/0.30+15
    D=(0.75*198)/0.30+15
    D=148.5/0.30+15
    D=495+15
    D=510
  4. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    You wrote the same formula as I did, because when you have a*b, then it's all the same if you first divide a/c then multiply by b, or you first divide b/c then multiply with a, or you first multiply a*b, then altogether divide by c. So I didn't write that bonus bracket as you did.
    But now I see the problem. You don't use 0.75 (which is mathematically correct if we speak about percentage), but you use 75% instead. So your numbers should look like this:

    D=(TB*(CL*2))/B+15
    D=(75*(99*2))/60+15
    D=262.5

    You used B=0,3, but blocking for your desired shield is 60%. You simply read what is your total chance on block on shield, that + 30% Increased Chance Of Blocking is already calculated there. So, don't use 0.xy for percentage in this case, use 75%, 30%, 60% etc...
  5. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Oh, yes, you are right. I should refresh my maths. The rule I used would apply on "TB+(CL*2)", but not on "TB*(CL*2)".

    I think it is vice versa - I use 0.75 (as mathematically correct percentage), but you use 75 instead of 0.75.
    You are right about the Chance to Block for that shield, I mistook "+30% Increased Chance Of Blocking" for the final value, which is 60%.
    Anyway, now it makes sense - the Dexterity 262.5 is right even according to the block calculator. So, everytime I will calculate Chance to Block, I should use "full numbers" instead of percentage. Thank you very much for clarification. :)
  6. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    One more thing - it is off topic, but since we already have such a nice conversation here and since I am too lazy to create a new thread... I tried playing the Barbarian, and used the Stun skill. It seemed to me that the Stun skill did not always work even when I hit, or that the skill did not work on bossess, or something like that. But there is nothing about this neither in the in-game description of the skill, nor in the description which is on Arreat Summit. So, do you know if there is some rule like "the stun function of the Stun skill does not work on bossess", or "there is only a chance that the monster will be stunned, not certainty" etc.? Or was it just my imagination?
  7. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    And last off-topic question... Do Life and Mana Stealing effects on equipment stack? Like if I will have Trang-Oul's set which gives me 20% Life Steal per Hit, and in addition if I would use the elite unique sword Bloodmoon which gives me 10% - 15% Life Steal per Hit, would I have let's say 35% Life Steal per Hit, or only 20% Life Steal per Hit?
  8. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Ok, this will be the last off-topic question. :-D ... What possibly good use could a Necromancer have for Life Steal with Trang-Oul's set? I mean, I suppose it is best to go with a wand rather than with an actual weapon, and wand does not have high enough damage to make the Life Steal actually count, or...?
  9. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Life stealing effects stack.
    http://www.diablowiki.com/Life_Stealing_(Diablo_II)

    Don't know what to do with that life steal with necro. Nothing I guess. Don't know what to do with that fire spell bonuses either. It's cool to fire fireballs that almost don't deal damage, or meteors. Sometimes gear provides bonuses you don't really need.

    As for stun, don't know mechanics of that.
  10. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Well... You would deal something like 250 - 300 damage with Fireball from Trang-Oul's set, which is not very much if you have leveled other Necromancer damage spells. But I don't know - MAYBE.. If you would get that Bloodmoon... You could create an interesting build, albeit I absolutely do not know if it would be a "good" build.

    Melee damage:

    You would go for max. block, therefore for high Dexterity, therefore for great Chance to Hit.
    Damage done directly by Necromancer - Bloodmoon sword, 120 - 140 damage per hit. (amplifiaction - Amplify Damage, Decrepify)
    Indirect damage - Bloodmoon sword has 9 charges of Level 15 Blood Golem, so Golem making damage.
    Indirect damage - 50% chance of Open Wounds on hit with Bloodmoon
    Indirect damage - Confuse and Attract
    Indirect damage - Attackers take damage of 20 (Trang-Oul's Guise]

    Ranged damage and weakening enemies (weakening of melee monsters before they engage, attacking ranged monsters, AREA OF EFFECT DAMAGE):

    Can use Lower Resist (-64%)
    Fireball base damage - 596-683
    Firewall base damage - 959-992 per second
    Meteor base damage - 852-953
    Trang-Oul's Claws +20% faster Cast Rate
    Curses - Decrepify, Weaken, Dim Vision, ...

    Life steal:

    20% Life Steal from Trang-Oul's Set
    10% - 15% Life Steal from Bloodmoon
    Base Life Steal let's say 35% per hit, that is 49 lifes gained per successful 1 melee attack.
    With Life Tap, 119 lifes gained per 1 successful melee attack.
    IN ADDITION - Trang-Oul's Guise Replenish Life +5, Trang-Oul's Girth Replenish Life +5, +66 to Life, Bloodmoon Sword +7-13 Life after each kill


    Protection:

    Damage reduced by 25%
    +100% Missile Defense
    Lightning resist - 100%
    Poison resist - 90%
    Fire resist - 95%
    Cold resist - 120%
    Cannot be frozen
    Able to run around (+30 max. stamina, 40% faster movement]
    Defense 1543

    Crowd Control:

    Curses! Confuse, Attract,Terror, .... + and you can go for Bone Prison and Bone Wall, which will 1) synergize with your Bone Armor, 2) combined with curses will give you excellent area control

    OR, ALTERNATIVELY...

    You can go for poison skills - that way you will use up the bonus from Trang-Oul's set (-25% to enemy Poison Resistance, +25% to Poison Skill damage).

    Where you get mana for all the casting if you spend your points into strenght, dexterity, vitality:

    Trang-Oul's set! .. Mana +300, regeneration of mana +105%

    And you have +15 Dexterity and +25 Strenght on shield, so little bit more stat points to spend.

    All this can be supplemented with charms, of course - not talking about amulet and rings.

    And how to use this? 2 ways.

    With poison: Weaken enemy before approach - curses, then poison, then fire spells. When they engage, use curses to shrink the number of monsters you have to fight at once - use your nice defense, Blood Golem, 75% block and huge lifesteal to survive, while simultaneously dealing damage directly, through Blood Golem, by returning damage (items + Iron Maiden) and mainly Poison (which does damage overtime so you do not have to recast it all the time and you can melee lifesteal instead).

    With bones: Same as with poison, only relying on your much improved crowd control (Bone Wall, Bone Prison) and protection (Bone Armor) instead of poison to give you the edge. Then you can either run away and cast fire, or divide enemy forces continously and fight melee.

    You can use Corpse Explosion instead of fire once there are corpses to use.
  11. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Well, good luck with that build ;)
    Question is how useful this build is comparied to other necro build options. There is only one option I would really consider full Trang's build, and that is PvP poisonmancer with Death's Web. However, this is more like "fun" build than "useful" build. I have Enigma poisonmancer, and even with than I have problems catching the enemy, not to mention the fact you are walking around with full trangs. Perhaps in some ffa can be fun, but in 1v1 matches you are in major disadvantage against anything with range and teleport. Against melee build you would be in far superior position with teleport than in this walking form.
    So, I see this build only as some creative fun option to play with, but nothing else than that.
  12. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Well, I think this build could work a little bit, mainly because you should have high survivability against melee fighter with your "insane" lifesteal - and basically all you need is time if you are waiting for someone poisoned to die. :) I can imagine there are better builds in terms of raw power, but nonetheless I think this build should even practically work to some extent. And other than that, it certainly is an interesting combination. :) You don't see a melee life-stealing necro supplemented by poisons, curses and occasional fireballs when it comes to range. :)) And what is also cool that he looks like a vampire, which corresponds with his melee life stealing kind of fighting. :D
  13. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Only melee builds you would be able to attack actually are barb, zealot, fury werewolf, some bear. Dunno about ghost matchup, she should stun you really badly.
    All those builds deal so much damage per hit that your "lifesteal" is useless. If you land a hit actually. Don't bother with attacking at all, necro is caster, not a knight.

    Against BvC: He hits very hard, he will put you in block and hit recovery so much it's almost impossible for you to attack him. Even if you do, that 50 life stolen vs 700 damage per hit he deals.
    Against Zealot: Your AR is so low that you wont be able to hit him at all. If you focus on AR more, you are gonna lose way too much damage output.
    Against Wolf: Ton's of Hp to deal with, and his fury is not a joke. Like BvC, he will put you in recovery very much, and they can pack over 20k defense. Good luck hitting that.
    Against Ghost: Mind blast, trap, mind blast, 3 traps, more mindblast, WW. If you land a hit on her, congratz!
    Against Sorc: Yeah, she will wait for you to come to her and hit her to realize you did 0 damage.
    Against Windy: Perhaps his minions are good targets, however you will kill them all with poison nova. Why hitting him anyway, he must come almost in melee, then just nova him with lower resist. That will hurt him. Then run so he can't target you with tornados, they WILL hurt, and he will do that if you try to lifesteal him.
    Against any Paladin: Tons of defense, don't bother hitting him.
    Against Trapper: Same as Ghost.
    Against Zon: You are dead before match begin. You won't catch her. Ever.
    Against Bonecro: Same as above. He will spam you with spirits. All you can do is run for your life. Don't even duel him.

    I hope this answers on question about usefulness of lifesteal with necro. But you can try and see for yourself, don't take my words for it ;)
  14. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Alright, you got me. I won't even try to pretend that I understood at least around half of abbreviations you used. :-D Actually, I have very poor knowledge of the game - I never finished it even on Normal (not like it was too hard, just my perfectionism, laziness to work with information and inability to concentrate on one character). .. So it's not like I really believe I'm right here. Basically I was just trying to find some sense in that Life Steal and Fire Skills, because I know at least Warcraft and Starcraft are very balanced "everything has it's use" type of games - so I was just guessing where did the Blizzard put the "hidden sense" of these equip bonuses for Necromancer. Well, it is a Necromancer set so I would not expect anyone else than Necro bothering to use it. .. Well, maybe casual player who does not plan his equip and finds the set just by chance - does not care, like "it is The Set, it has The Big Bonuses, I'll wear it as Barbarian".
  15. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Actually, Diablo has very unbalanced parts and items. For example, Spirit is very cheap runeword, and grants godly stuff. Grief is very overpowered for its value. But, you will see some things yourself by playing the game.
  16. aoirira

    aoirira IncGamers Member

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    Not happy to hear that. In my opinion, imbalance of this kind does not matter so much as long as the builds are still playable, in case you just want to "sandbox" in Singleplayer... But on Battle.Net, where you tend to compare yourself to other players (in better case) or where you are invited to duels which you cannot honorably declide and you cannot win them because of imbalance at the same time, or even when you are deliberately attacked by imbalanced-power-type of guy (in the worst case), it seems somehow more important. Of course, you can just check out what is imbalanced in the good way and use it, but I am a type of person who does not like where such a type of gaming is going (if you know what I mean). I value versatility - especially in a game like Diablo.. I would absolutely admire if people would have different equipment, and the competition between the players would be based on "skill" and creativity, rather than on exploiting the imbalances by going for the "obviously better choices". .. I hope I managed to be at least a little bit understandable. :D .. Its like playing Mortal Kombat with friends, trying to have some fun, and the other guy is always picking Shao Kahn, Goro and Kintaro. :D
  17. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Game is indeed playable. Grief and Spirit are imbalanced only in ratio invested/received. Item which is considered imbalanced in PvP is exile runeword cause of life tap curse, for example. Don't know what else other than some certain items from previous versions.

    There are some variations in builds, but most builds, if not all, are straightforward. Not cool, I know. Well, there are some variations, such as with bowazon where you choose one of two possible paths to take, speed one or damage one.
    But, this is for high level dueling, where level has no limits. But in low level dueling (considered up to level 30), you have more possible variations to make. At least I made my lld characters on my own way, reading 3 guides saying 3 different things. But lld is not so popular, some people consider that's not worth their time. Sorry to hear that, lld are very fun, in some elements even better than hld. That's my opinion, anyway.

    Don't know how much creativity is present in builds these days, but skill is always very important. In some builds more than others, but whatever you choose to build, you need skill to play that proper way. There are some very skill dependent builds, like BvC for example. No matter how elite gear you have, you really need to know how to play with him.
  18. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    I'm not 100% certain, but War Cry also has a stun effect, the stun effect always works on normal monsters, but only has a 10% chance to stun against champions and uniques, and it doesn't work against bosses (like andy/meph/etc.) Its probably the same for the stun kill itself.

    I think it has more to do with going along with the them of turning into a vampire with the whole set, but if you wanted to actually utilize the set and the 20% Life leach, you could make a poison dagger necromancer and use one of the daggers (fleshripper would give you decentish physical damage, or an upd spineripper) and you should be able to leach at least "some" health, although it wouldn't be significant. Blackbogs would give you more poison damage, but the physical damage would be sad at that point.
  19. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Life steal in pvp is reduced to 1/6th or something rediculous like that, and then there's the penalty for duelling in hell diff (1/3rd) and the pvp damage penalty in it self (1/6th) which gives an effective penalty of *drumroll* 1/108th lifeleech.... So if you have 10k physical damage, you still need 108% life stolen per hit to gain 100 life from hitting another player....

    Life tap works differently, and is not subject to penalties other than the pvp damage penalty. Which is why it is concidered bad manners to use.
  20. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    LL on trangs set is just the sort of thing which are added on to D2 items for no practical reason. For example, Tal helm which has dual leech, but no sorc needs that ( and those that do wouldn't use Tal's set ). That said, a trangs daggermancer sounds fun!

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