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Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by davew2040, Apr 5, 2012. | Replies: 73 | Views: 6550

  1. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    I saw a link about this on the main page a few days back, and it got me thinking about life leech. I wrote a big post about it on the Blizzard forums, which I guess I'll just link to here:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4362517989

    Thinking back on it, life leech really was an unmitigated game design disaster, completely useless at early levels and incredibly overpowering at the highest ones. And it looks like they're keeping it unchanging in D3, except even boosting it up by making it apply to casters as well.

    I imagine this may have been discussed to death on these forums by now, but... I couldn't find those discussions :p So... what's the general consensus?
  2. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Depends on the damage:HP ratio and whenever life leach has a penalty for AoE attacks.
  3. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Sure, it depends on all that, but I think the problem is mathematically intractable.

    Your damage depends on a bunch of things, but I think you can basically summarize it as follows:

    weapon * (strength|dex|int) * crit

    All that stuff is going to be increasing with your gear. Now you're adding still another multiplier in the mix, life leech, that is *also* increasing with gear.

    The HP equation is more like:

    vitality * (life multiplier)

    So... based on simple algebraic knowledge, it's clear that life leech *will* overpower that. It's only a matter of time.

    And... of course, we know how it worked in Diablo 2. Poorly.
  4. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    So... you already know what a level 60, well equipped, character's damage output and total life looks like?

    Multipliers aren't magic. You can have 5 multipliers amounting to a fraction of the value of 2 multipliers because the actual value of the multipliers is important.

    Sure, they will probably screw up the balance. But we won't know until we actually get to Inferno.
  5. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    With specific values, yes, you can have five multipliers that equate to a value that is smaller than two other multipliers.

    But... an important characteristic of multiplication is that, given sufficient time, the five multipliers will eventually produce a value that is greater than two similarly increasing multipliers.

    Diablo 3 is a highly equipment-centric game. Values *will* always be going up. That's why people run the hard content, to get the better stuff. If Blizzard releases DLC with even better stuff, then the problem will be there too.

    This problem really can't be solved in an elegant way, in my opinion. The very nature of life leech as an item stat is that it will suck at low levels of gear and be too good at high levels of gear. Essentially, your question amounts to "will it be tuned just right so that it's appropriate at the level of play that we care about". That's the only question you can really answer, because it's not going to be appropriate before that *or* after that.
  6. starrise

    starrise IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    If level 60 and fully decked occur before that time, then no problem!


  7. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Eh... they don't have to scale item affixes linearly you know.
  8. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    No, I suppose not.

    But what is a linearly increasing percentage-based life leech really doing for them? It's a big balance risk, for what benefit?
  9. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    The benefit is keeping an interesting stat in the game. If we cut out stuff on the basis of "IT MIGHT BREAK THE GAME," Diablo 3 isn't going to last a long time as a game. If it proves problematic they can adjust it the values or add specialized rules such as life leach caps, etc.
  10. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    I would argue that its longevity will suffer if it degenerates into the same kind of nonsense that Diablo 2 did where the only path they had to give you any kind of challenge was to spike the damage so high that you'd die in a flash if you ever stopped leeching.

    Diablo 2 was a great game, but it was 13 years ago. It has hilariously awful mechanics in many regards, and that doesn't fly in 2012.



  11. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    problem with life leech is you are forced to balance assuming everyone will have it there for you lose the option to not have it
  12. davew2040

    davew2040 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Exactly. And it's that balancing that forces them to drive damage way, way up. What can you do after a player heals basically all their health the moment they hit an enemy?
  13. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    I was quite unhappy to see lifeleech return in D3. Not convinced they can balance the stat either.

    Hopefully we are all wrong :D

    Health orbs, and to a lesser degree skills, should be your main ways to get back HP imo.

    If they can make lifeleech a really small part of your overall HP regen, then sure it can be a balanced bonus, but the moment it starts to replace Health Orbs, the balance breaks apart.
  14. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    There is a mystic, arcane, ancient, fantastical, etc. solution to this problem.

    Nerf life leach and do not balance the bloody game around keeping the life leach values as if it were an immutable universal constant.
  15. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Which pretty much means Blizzard would never go for it :D


  16. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Life leech will be far more important in d3 compared to d2. Items with lifesteal now are branded as vampiric and it says: x% dmg is converted to life. This could mean you get lifesteal not only from attacks but spells only ?
  17. Coolhwip

    Coolhwip IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Don't forget "gain XX health per attack" and "gain XX health after each kill" items, which are completely independent of your dmg and scale incredibly well with attack speed.
  18. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    xx health per hit, i see that only viable on monk's way of the hundred fists, and maybe barbs frenzy anti-boss skill. x health after monster kill will be totally useless in inferno, unless its some really big number...


  19. Spens

    Spens IncGamers Member

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    None of this concludes that HP will scale slower than damage as we level.



  20. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

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    Re: Life leech in Diablo 3: Unmanageable?

    Guys trust in blizzard, somewhere i heard they got PhD guys working on the numbers (which didn't surprised me at all) that should include everything from monsters lvls/dmg lifestals vs dmg returns, drops rates... blizzard has always been good with numbers.

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