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Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by stillman, Nov 18, 2013. | Replies: 20 | Views: 3221

  1. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Surely, the 350% damage to demons on LoH can't work as it implies. I read somewhere that it ends up being only about 60% ed to demons. Can anyone confirm?

    Second question: would a glass cannon bowazon be better off with 60% ed Steelrend (with 10% CB) instead of LoH because rends will boost all damage? Yes, I know it has a high str req, but I'm using wf (134 str req), and with a perfect 20 str bonus on rends, you only need 31 more str to wear it.
  2. uglyfred

    uglyfred IncGamers Member

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    I don't recall the exact details, so take this with a grain of salt, but a simple summary is that enhanced damage % that's actually on a weapon is quite different from enhanced damage % from other sources (i.e. skills, non-weapon items, %ED Demons or Undead, etc.). And point for point, the on-weapon ED% is quite a bit more significant to your final damage numbers.

    So, if I had to guess, the statement that 350% ED from LoH is actually 60% ED is probably based on assuming 350% off-weapon ED is equivalent to 60% on-weapon ED... or something like that. I can't state how accurate that 350 -> 60 comparison actually is without tracking down a more detailed breakdown of damage formulas.

    Of course, Steelrend's ED% is off-weapon ED%, just like LoH. So it would also be equivalent to a much smaller on-weapon ED% - although you're correct that it would apply to all types of monsters.


    As for whether you should use Steelrends, I think it's a justifiable choice paired with a Windforce, especially if you don't need additional IAS from your gloves and don't have any other source of Crushing Blow. But for many builds and most of the time, I'd probably work around using LoH for gloves and get my Crushing Blow & other off-weapon ED% from elsewhere.
  3. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    Ive had this discussion plenty of times. And every god snuffs time, I swap Steelrends for LoH, I do a ton more dmg vs demons. (All act bosses are demons btw)
    So I can surely say that you get alot more dmg than 60% additional, vs demons.

    Ofc, the cb on steelrends, could make it more valid on a bowazon. Instead of LoH. Mind that LoH also has 20IAS.
    Cb is awesome for bowazons, but they wont get the full %, I think its more like a 1/3 or something like that, for ranged attacks. Cant remember.

    And besides that, Steelrends has a very high str req. And ed is isnt as important as IAS; and base dmg for a Bowazon.



    Peace and love
  4. uglyfred

    uglyfred IncGamers Member

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    I forgot this point, but it's important... CB isn't as effective when it's from a ranged attack compared to a melee attack (though I do think it's 1/2, not 1/3).
  5. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Thanks, all. According to Arreat Summit, enemy health reduction with successful CB using melee is 1/4. For ranged, it's 1/8. For ranged against bosses, champs, and uniques it's 1/16. Despite these depressing numbers, the strong consensus in a thread about this (with posters crunching numbers) was that it's still worth having some CB on your bowazon, especially for bosses b/c bowas typically have a hard time whittling them down.

    I should point out that the set up I have in mind won't need the 20 IAS on gloves. But I wonder if the extra 31 str (which equals a dex loss) needed just for rends combined with the 290% dtd loss (rends provides 60) would make rends a wasted investment? Also, those Venom Lords (demon) in Hell Chaos have so much more health than the paper Storm Casters and Doom Knights.

    Archone: the problem is, though, that LoH never felt like wearing another Fort (and them some) vs demons. So it seems like the true bonus is more significant than 60 as you say, but nowhere near as big as what the number 350 suggests. Somewhere in the middle perhaps. I mean you really notice putting Fort on.
  6. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    I thought that dtd, or dtu, worked on your final dmg. Not calculated with the base dmg, rather the final dmg after ed has been calculated.
  7. Black Lotus

    Black Lotus IncGamers Member

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    Actually, it is. While it does not 'feel' like fort, extra 350ed is exactly 350ed. ED vs demons adds to the final off-weapon ED (skills, auras, str bonus etc) when facing demons. I cant remember my physical damage classes wearing anything but LoH. Great item.
  8. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Alright, I'll take your word for it. Talk about overpowered; 50 fire res too. It makes the desire for crafted kb gloves seem rather silly since you're giving up all that damage.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  9. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    Crafted knock back gloves are really a pvp kind of item. There are many better ways to get knockback if you aren't using windforce for pvm.

    Lets think of it this way though, would you rather be 60% more effective against all monsters or 350% more effective against half of the monsters (half is just rough guessing it). Its a pretty easy choice in this one though, because as you said you would need 31 more strength, which results in 31 less dex. One dex while using a bow is equal to 1% off weapon ed, so by investing the strength to use the gloves you are only effectively gaining 29% ed with a perfect roll steelrend.

    Pretty much for standard pvm, Loh can't be beat.

    Also, even though it may not "feel" like another fort, the damage % added by both work the same way as off weapon, the only difference is that the fort damage is seen in the LCS while the LOH % to demons is not.
  10. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    It doesn't. Damage with fort and LoH only and 100 str using an axe: weapon damage +400% (str and fort) vs all but demons, which gets 750%ED applied to them
  11. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    That's what I remember too. Only the weapon's damage gets the 350% bonus. But then the auras work on that, right? Or is the extra damage bonus set aside and added (not multiplied) at the very end of the damage calculation? If I have a weapon with 100 damage, does that become 350 which an aura makes 500, or does 350 get added to the final damage?
  12. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    I dont get it really, the thing is I usually have this on my ww barbs:

    Beast = 186ed
    EbotD ~400ed
    Forti = 300ed
    450+ str
    + mastery and ww skills... ~300ed

    Nevermind! Its alot of ed, and swapping to LoH from any other glove, makes a really noticeable dmg difference. I cant believe that 350% extra vs demons will do so much difference. When I have easily 1500ed overall.
  13. Black Lotus

    Black Lotus IncGamers Member

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    The difference between 1500ed and 1850ed is ~23%. Which means, LoH alone deals extra ONE FOURTH damage to demons.
  14. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    Can you guys really not figure it out? Glass cannon zon using Windforce, I really don't know how much dex they can get, but lets just assume 300 for simplicity sake. Both strafe and multishot use 3/4 weapon damage so we will assume that. Disregard the 3/4 portion of the calc if not using strafe/ms.

    My Level 89 zon personally has 35 - 516 listed damage on windforce. Average 275.5, round down for ease 275. Assume no other added damage sources like charms or war travs.

    275 * 3/4 = 206.25 (round down again for ease)

    We use:
    Fort = 300%
    Level 17 might merc = 200%
    300 Dexterity = 300%
    Level 20 strafe = 100%
    LOH = 350% to demons
    OR
    Steelrends = 60%

    Note: None of this takes into account CS/DS/Amp/Decrep/CB etc.

    LOH setup vs. Demons
    Damage = 206 * (1+3+2+3+1+3.5) = 206 * 13.5 = 2781 avearage damage per arrow

    LOH setup vs. Other
    Damage = 206 * (1+3+2+3+1) = 206 * 10 = 2060 avearage damage per arrow

    Steelrend setup vs. All
    Damage = 206 * (1+3+2+3+1+.6) = 206 * 10.6 = 2183.6 (rounded up to 2184) avearage damage per arrow

    Steelrend should setup should actually only be +.29 because of the 31 dex sacrificed to wear steelrends in the first place, but I kept dex flat for simplicity.
  15. onderduiker

    onderduiker IncGamers Member

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    % Damage to Demons (or Undead) anywhere (including the weapon itself) simply sums with off-weapon Enhanced Damage (+% Damage) from all sources (Strength, Dexterity or both, skills including auras, items other than weapons, and so on) when the target is a demon (or undead). However, it does not apply to Smite or Dragon Talon, Tail or Flight.

    So for an archer Amazon with 300 Dexterity (+300%), level 20 Strafe (+100%), Fortitude body armour (+300%) and a Desert Mercenary supplying level 17 Might (+200%), +900% Damage is applied; +350% Damage to Demons just increases that to +1,250% when the target is a demon.

    The significance of +350% Damage to Demons depends on how much +% Damage is already being applied: increasing it from +900% to +1,250% (10 vs 13.5 times weapon damage) increases attack damage to demons by 35% (13.5/10 = 1.35); remove the Fortitude body armour, and increasing it from +600% to +950% (7 vs 10.5 times weapon damage) increases attack damage to demons by 50%.

    Similarly, Steelrends add maximum 60% Damage but potentially cost 31% Damage due to the increased Required Strength, so adding 29% Damage to +900% only increases attack damage by 2.9% (although the effect of 10% Chance of Crushing Blow isn't so easy to quantify).

    Blood gloves could be crafted with (5-10)% Chance of Crushing Blow and up to +15 Dexterity (+15% Damage with bows and crossbows), among other potentially useful affixes (up to +2 Bow and Crossbow Skills, 20 Increased Attack Speed, +15 Strength, and so on), although unless you already have them or limit your crafting expectations to one or two desirable affixes they shouldn't be considered.

    Breath of the Dying's weapon Enhanced Damage is applied to base weapon damage first, then all that off-weapon ED (+% Damage) is applied to total weapon damage (including any minimum and maximum damage bonuses). If you already have +1,236% Damage, then adding 350% Damage to Demons still increases attack damage to demons by ~26% (16.86/13.36 ~ 1.26).

    The difference between 1,500% ED and 1,850% ED is between applying 16 times and 19.5 times weapon damage (you begin with 100% weapon damage, then add 1,500% or 1,850%), so attack damage to demons increases by 21.875%. In this case the discrepancy isn't that significant, but with smaller amounts of ED it would be.
  16. Black Lotus

    Black Lotus IncGamers Member

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    I am sorry for not being native English speaker, but are all five previous posts trying to retell the same thing, in same words, but in different manner? :D
  17. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Yes, but it's helpful. Back in the day, the reason I didn't notice a huge gain vs, say, Venom Lords with LoH was because I was well geared with huge dex, 45-120 hem, my choice of fort or 60-160 whale armor, and lev 95 might merc with perfect pride. So the 350% dtd felt like a drop in the wealthy ed ocean I was swimming in. But it still does what it says it does, making it the top glove for pvm glass cannons. Old Bliz would sometimes clamp down on overpowered affixes like that, sometime not. Look how they chomp away at freeze length in Hell. You can't help but be suspicious.

    You know how it is; you eventually want to replace common gear with more extravagant, rare, expensive items. But this season coming up, it'll be LoH for me once again.
  18. michaeld

    michaeld IncGamers Member

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    Could you elaborate please? Weapon speed, base damage, ED, AR, etc. is already known. Is it not merely to multiply the CB% with the expected arrows to hit pr. time frame, then solve for various values of monsters HP and DEF? As long as HP & DEF of monsters define an area, or AR >> DEF => 95% CTH, or DMG >> HP => 1 hit kills, you can solve for different areas and say exactly when, if ever, it's worthwhile to use one setup rather than the other. IF damage happens to be close to 1 hit kills anyway, the variance on the average becomes huge, but then the combinations decreases a lot (1-2 hits pr. monster), I believe, so it should still be easily solveable. Even if HP & DEF varies a lot between creatures, the question could be solved for different parameters, highest speed (lowest killing time of depending on average spawn rates pr. damages of various monsters pr. area), or most safety (lowest killing time among highest killing times against the most durable monsters for each gear choice, e.g. gear choice 1: Longest Monster to Kill for this gear choice (Monster 1): 1.3 sec. gear choice 2: Longest Monster to Kill for this gear choice (Monster 2): 1.4 sec., ergo gear choice 1 provides most safety when reducing safety to kill or get killed). Alternatively a danger estimate of each monster can be generated from how many hits they require to defeat the character based on different gear choices and find the optimum where monsters deemed dangerous (depends on playstyle, which depends on class and skill choices) requires less time to kill.
  19. onderduiker

    onderduiker IncGamers Member

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    Monster life is normally variable (with the exception of some bosses), damage is certainly variable (particularly if chance of critical hit from Critical Strike and possibly Deadly Strike is less than 100%), Chance of Crushing Blow is normally less than 100% and CB damage is a percentage of remaining base life, not maximum base life, so it's extremely variable as well. That's a lot of variables, even if you have numerical values for them.

    I only studied mathematics to the end of high school so I may have forgotten or never learned something that addresses all of that and allows you to easily quantify CB damage as part of your DPS. I doubt it's an insurmountable problem for someone with sufficient knowledge of mathematics and Diablo II, but I'm not going to apply myself to it at this stage.
  20. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    One other method is to do timed runs with the gear setups in question, average them, and compare.

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