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Justifying machine

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Galabab, Mar 18, 2012. | Replies: 14 | Views: 845

  1. Galabab

    Galabab IncGamers Member

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    Justifying machine

    We all are justifying machines. We justify our views and deeds.
    We grow up and form our oppinions early. After that its all about justifying yourself. You confront different oppinions but you are always hugely prejudiced. Your first assumtion is always that others are wrong.

    If you have heard at some early point, say, that neanderthal men lived mostly in europe, it will take a LOT of effort to convince you of a different view, despite of you having zero paleoanthropic education.

    This can be seen easily in religious desputes, where seemingly intelligent men seem to act blind towards some arguments while embracing other arguments which fit their view.
    Basicly in any dispute you always have parties which believe in own honesty and benevolence and are just justifying their points.

    I have come to see that the more well educated a person is, the more stubborn they tend to be. This is because they have an easy way to justify them selves thanks to their intelligence.

    Im sure if you look at any dispute, be it personal or political you will see just 2 sides justifying them selves to their best ability.
     
  2. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    We are All Products of Genetics, Environment, and Destiny?


    :scratchchin:

    Just My
    Opp!
    pinion.
     
  3. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Pass the bong, man. That was deep.

    (Just teasin' ya, Bab. It's the first thing that came to mind when I read your post.)
     
  4. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    A truly educated person knows that they don't know everything and that their personal scientific beliefs must give way when confronted with overwhelming contradictory evidence.



     
  5. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Galabab isn't talking about intelligence and knowledge, but about wisdom. People might know that they don't know anything, but that doesn't mean that they act accordingly.

    However, among the people who are stubborn with respect to their opinions, there are those who put thoughts and efforts into founding their opinion and those who decided for their opinion without doing that or just on a whim. I usually prefer the first kind if it's a matter of logic, reason and arguments. I think I already said it elsewhere, but IMO the second kind is the cause of 50% of all evil, maybe even more.
     
  6. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    I would have thought that "educated" had more to do with intelligence and knowledge than it does wisdom. Whatever the case, scientists who were universally considered to be intelligent, knowledgeable and wise, such as Einstein and Hubble, held back scientific advancement for years because they were unable to accept new discoveries that contradicted their theories/opinions were valid.

    Not completely related, but along the same lines, look at the effect the Galen had on medicine. For hundreds of years people considered him so intelligent, knowledgeable and wise that his teaching on medicine were thought to be definative and no evidence to the contary was considered valid.



     
  7. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Quick Duck!

    If You did not duck you just died.

    How's that Education working out for you real world wise?

    :D

    Education is a log with a student on one end and a teacher on the other.

    ("Destiny" and "free will" are Synonyms and thanks for not addressing the OP but "ME" :D )


     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  8. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Justifying machine

    I agree that "truly educated" (which you actually wrote) could include wisdom, as long as we don't explain the words "truly" and "wisdom" with a particular ideology, something which both of us avoided :).

    Wisdom doesn't need intelligence or knowledge and vice versa. They might support each other, however.

    I don't know about Hubble, but Einstein didn't hold back advancement. I guess you mean his reluctance with respect to certain aspects of quantum mechanics or introducing his cosmological constant which was needed to keep his belief in a static universe (which Hubble's discovery of red shift of the light of distant galaxies contradict). He admitted that he was wrong with respect to that.

    He paid attention to arguments, e.g. during the famous conversation about Einsteins hypothetical photon scales experiment which seemingly contradicted the incertainty relation, but Bohr could prove him wrong by using Einstein's own relativity theory. Einstein saying "I don't believe that god throws dice" just means that he believed that there might be an even better theory than quantum mechanics which explains the quantum world, but without concepts like incertainty.



     
  9. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    I may have worded it awkwardly. What I meant was that just the fact that Einstein couldn't accept the new ideas in physics had the impact of making his peers also not accept them. It doesn't have to be an active retardation of new ideas, but a passive one. Although, IIRC I read something about him not reading papers by people he disagreed with and going as far as not answering correspondence from them. The effect is still happening today. Recent tests in Europe clocked a neutrino moving faster than the speed of light. Not once but twice. The thought immediately was "Einstein cannot be wrong, so there must be something wrong with the data/procedure". There may well be me something wrong with the data or the procedure, but to immediately dismiss the findings out of hand just because someone who has been known to be wrong in the past said it cannot happen is an interesting reaction. If these experiments are in fact accurate, and I'm not saying they are, the implications are mindblowing. The really interesting thing is that the findings and the "rule" are not completely mutually exclusive.

    Sorry, I was thinking of Hoyle. Although both Hubble and Eddington were strange buggers.



     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  10. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    I Think I'll Have Another Drink.
    Sounds more like Philosophy than Physics with those cites.



    Cheers Bruce!

    Now back on Topic with the OP
    "Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position."

    20/20 hindsight does not fix things nor does Justification change facts.

    Sorry
    :D


     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  11. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Both intelligence and education can be overrated. Some of the smartest minds of the 20th Century thought that Eugenics was a swell idea, even though it didn't take a genius to figure out where that thinking leads. Note - that's not some kind of jibe at Germany; American Progressives (both "right" & left) were strong Eugenics supporters, some even after WW2.

    Further, the bias towards one's own belief can cause one to hold some truly asinine positions when pressed or tested, such as the one that Richard Dawkins beclowned himself with on Ben Stein's movie... (Dawkins accepted the possibility of Creationism as long as a space alien, rather than God, was the Creator.)

    EDIT - fun related quote from said clown during the "Reason Rally"
    “Mock them, ridicule them in public,” he urged. “Don’t fall for the convention that we’re all too polite to talk about religion.”

    Yup, no hypocrisy there, nosirree.



     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  12. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Say that to the surgeon that is trying to save your life!



     
  13. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    I said overrated, not worthless or optional. Plus, I'd much rather have a less "brilliant" surgeon than a "brilliant" one hopped up on cocaine and preoccupied with his upcoming weekend boat-orgy.



     
  14. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Brilliant with quotes probably means people who are good at pretending or making the impression to be brilliant.
     
  15. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Justifying machine

    Unintentional inference on my part. Einstein was brilliant, but I wouldn't trust him to pick up my groceries - the old story about him having identical clothing so he wouldn't be confused with the choices might sound apocryphal but it's at least partially factual.

    I worked with a somewhat older inner city man in Philadelphia, PA, for the Census Bureau - I was the computer tech, he was the supply clerk dealing specifically with laptop 'fleet' support. He was mocked by management as slow - in reality he had what used to be referred to as a 'ponderous intellect'. He didn't speak quickly, didn't jump to conclusions, didn't make snap judgements, but instead turned every problem around in his head for examination before making a call on an issue. I never worked with a better level 1 technician, and he was implicitly trustworthy to perform troubleshooting and simple repair; I was not at all surprised that he was an E-7 (Sergeant First Class) in a local Army Reserve unit.



     

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