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Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by konfeta, Mar 28, 2013. | Replies: 42 | Views: 5769

  1. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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  2. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    One of many.
  3. Bad Ash

    Bad Ash IncGamers Site Pal

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    I just can't believe they never played Diablo 2 lol. I can't get over that and won't get over that. Clearly if they put any time into playing the legend they were creating a sequel for they would have realized that every item gets traded at some level WITHOUT a global network to do so.

    Civerbs Cudgel and Sigons set and hsarus belt and boots just to name a few.

    Yes, the items hurt the game more than the AH did, but to think "they'd only post high level items" is just not smart.
  4. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Heh, those things weren't even necessarily traded. You could genuinely get bucketloads of the stuff by joining random "FREEEE" games.
  5. RazeBarb

    RazeBarb IncGamers Member

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    I guess removing the RMAH and GAH entirely via a patch and upping the quality of drops would please a lot of players.
    But it would also enrage many because the game was sold with those features and people will sue Blizz for taking them away.
  6. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator; Clan Officer West

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    Well, I don't think people would or even could sue. It's their game, we only paid for a license to play it on our machines. I think they can do what they please. But I am pretty sure it's here to stay. But its good to hear someone from Blizzard say this, even though he is supposedly no longer a part of the team.
  7. Katniss

    Katniss IncGamers Member

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    I feel like this was said, if not quite as explicitly, previously, so it's not really new news. However, it affirms what we all were already saying anyway. The main question is can we fix it living with some version of the AH permanently. What if a player can only post a max of one or two items and then the drop chances are raised significantly? What if the game drops more gold and they lower the ceiling of the max buyout?

    Just some thoughts.
  8. Ivan E

    Ivan E IncGamers Member

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    They should really just orient the drop rates as though the AH didn't exist, and then leave the AH there, if they don't want to add non-AH modes into the game.

    That way the AH becomes a purely optional ez-mode, beyond what it already is (where people get frustrated by the extreme randomization and try to collect gold to use on the AH).

    I know this likely won't happen to preserve some "investment" of those suckers that bought RMAH goods, but it really should in order to ease the drop rate issues. The thing is, if they add more interesting itemization to the game, with the current randomization and meh drop rates, it'll take self-found players eons to assemble cool "fun itemization playstyle" sets, so they need to buff drop rates of cool/useful stuff if they want people to be able to avoid the AH and gear up. But buffing drop rates, by definition, devalues what already exists, so they're kind of screwed -- either keep the AH important and make the item hunt relatively unsatisfying, or neuter the AH's prominence to improve the game.
  9. Katniss

    Katniss IncGamers Member

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    In the second scenario of your last sentence, I can see how that playerbase that purchased items might feel that it's a bit unfair to have these new and improved droprates, but, hasn't their money already been spent? Perhaps they've come to terms with the fact that they spent money to get their items (and it's not like some of those early items that were bought for $250 would still garner that much) and that the value will eventually depreciate, so neutering the AH's usefulness and making items practically worth nothing outside of perfectly rolled items might not hit as hard as we may think?
  10. Forgotten One

    Forgotten One IncGamers Member

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    I've never even clicked the auction house button so this seemed kind of obvious to me.
    All this talk of economy, what ruins it, what things are worth and adjusted drop rates affect me even though they shouldn't.
  11. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Ehhh, if Blizzard is serious about removing it or seriously hamstring it, they can do it in the expansion. There are already multiple precedents for it via Diablo 2 and Starcraft.

    But then again, there is also probably going to be a convert existing characters and all their gear to new stuff. They could just put a "3 month no transfers" limit and up the level cap with according increase in cap/etc. That's about the only real way raising the level cap makes sense, to force a clean slate on the economy.
  12. kolpo

    kolpo IncGamers Member

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    I don't think they should remove the AH for everyone, some people really like it. Instead should they make a new type of "realm" like hardcore is now, I would even prefer if this new realm has no trading at all. If you have a realm without an AH but with trading could people set up a black market AH out of the game, only stopping trading all together can prevent an AH in this age. I also don't want more spawn from people selling crap items in chat.

    Maybe could this realm allow one form of trading: if you kill a monster with a friend then can you trade the items it dropped with that friend. So items would be bound to all accounts who helped defeat the monster that dropped it.
  13. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Not to brag, but I predicted this well before Beta, in several old podcasts and posts.

    It is surprising that Blizzard didn't think about the implications of what a giant database of easily accessible items would do to the item-hunt. Perhaps I have an advantage of being an economist who played D2 a lot. But I still feel baffled that Blizzards priorities were heavily misguided, the item-system should have been priority #1, not virtually the last priority that they ended up making it. I guess tables breaking a certain way was more important.
  14. Golbez2

    Golbez2 IncGamers Member

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    The AH wasn't the mistake, the mistake is people felt forced into using it. I think this post sums it up well.


    If we agree the ultimate goal for every player is to be stomping mudholes in hordes of demons in MP10, it is the most difficult event we currently have in the game. MP10 provides the biggest Exp/MF/GF/loot drops in the game along with higher demonic essence drop rates, 100% Organ/Key drop rates.

    The ultimate goal should be having a character that can farm MP10 efficiently, many barbs have been doing it for awhile, along with monks, cm-wizards, 0cd zombie dog WD's.

    The problem is this:

    Self-finding a character capable of doing this at an efficient level is insurmountable. You would have to use either the GAH or RMAH to be able to get the gear needed, you could be a self-found character with 800+ hours of playtime and struggle to even get your foot in the door on MP10.

    The loot needs to be made to reflect this. If I as a player puts in 500-800hrs of playtime, I should have been able to farm MP10 at an decent pace. If I put in 1000-2000+ Hrs, I should have self-found enough gear to be straight up dominating MP10 with my eyes closed, that is time vs reward being done right. The more effort the player puts into something, the better the payout should be. What we have is players ID'ing that 100th pair of Frostburns, the echoing fury that rolled 700dps, the Manticore that rolled 1 socket with 250int, The mempo of twilight that rolled extra health globe and potion bonus.

    Players are disappointed because they don't feel rewarded, poor itemization is the main culprit. Many players have put in huge amount of hours with little to show for. Yes, RNG is RNG, but the point is, someone that puts in 1000-2000 hours is very dedicated, especially this day in age where most games don't even last longer than 8hrs before they get shelved.

    Because of how the itemization was handled, people were forced into using the GAH, a place where botters and flippers have really spun things into a mess. The AH isn't the problem, its why people felt forced into using it. When items drop, everything is already against you when only 3 main DPS stats matter for you to obtain the DPS that allows you to play in higher difficulties.

    People don't want content nerfs, people ultimately want to be rewarded should they spend the hours to be a dedicated player of Diablo 3.

    Take the Diablo 2 model.

    A melee character that self-found a shaftstop, string of ears, vampire gaze, a decent weapon, generic +2 skills amulet, some life/mana leech rings, farmed pretty well, you didn't roflstomp stuff but you were effective, all of that gear was fairly simple to obtain.

    A cheap smite paladin could farm ubers and uber diablo(the hardest content D2 had).

    A melee character that was using top-end runewords, well, they were just melting legions of mobs with their eyes closed. They put a ridiculous amount of time in farming, that was the ultimate result.

    There was a clear cut path to achieve this level of power in D2, it wasn't so insurmountable because of legendaries that only have 1 random property and it must be x or y affix or the item is complete garbage.

    In D2, you had the option of trading to speed up this journey from being slightly above average to elite, all it took was time, many did it by trading keysets which was the most common way to get wealth in D2. I remember a time where 4 keysets = 1HR, so there was always a bonus to do key runs, you continued working toward a goal that was always in viewing distance.

    In Diablo 3, the goal is never in viewing distance, one has to pray the legendary itself drops, then you have to pray again that it rolls godly. There really isn't this power curve we saw in D2, there is low end and high end in D3.

    Many of us played through the entire game in D3(pre inferno) and never found 1 legendary that made any significant difference. Many of us played Hell over and over again at launch just to step into inferno, finding nothing worthwhile in the majority of farming runs.

    In D2, we could find powerful items starting in nightmare, infact, Nightmare Andy had the highest chance to drop SoJ's. You could find Vampire Gazes, Shaftstops, many other useful items that weren't the most elite items, but they did the job. You could find a Burzia in nightmare mode and that weapon served you until the end. This entire element does not exist in D3, D3 is just extreme at both ends of the spectrum.

    Your DPS is too low, therefore you better drop down to a more suitable MP.
    Your DPS is high enough, therefore you progress until you continue to hit the next threshold of DPS required.

    The entire power curve of items in D3 is just bad, it needs a complete redesign from the ground up.

    In D2 the power curve worked like this:

    you could see the shoreline while out at sea, you realize it will take several thousands of paddle strokes to reach it which could take hours, maybe even days.

    In D3 the power curve works like this.

    You can't see the shoreline while out at sea because of fog, you realize there is a small hole in the boat that needs to be scooped out with a bucket, otherwise you'll sink. You end up spending more time paying attention to the water seeping into the boat than actually paddling. The time of reaching the shore is unknown, if you ever reach it at all. The shoreline can be 100feet away or 100miles away, you have no way of knowing.

    That is basically why people have been upset with the game. Players want to kill mobs, put their time in and have something to show for. They don't wanna feel like they need "the winning ticket to a 350million $ powerball jackpot" to have something to show for, that didn't involve using either AH's.
  15. Apendecto

    Apendecto IncGamers Member

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    *Slow clap*
  16. Katniss

    Katniss IncGamers Member

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    I've read two posts by Golbez this morning that are just so spot on. Well said, my friend!
  17. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Blizzard needs to :

    1) improve itemization (addressed)
    2) put in better end game content (addressed)
    3) improve Inferno (addressed)
    4) gold sink
    5) item sink

    The problem with D2lod's itemization is that majority of the unique are the same, and 99% of the unique and runewords have all the best affixes in the game (+skills,MF,life,aura, etc etc). This is bad because it will not be long before everyone will have the same items, the economy goes stale and BAM, ladder system forced to be implemented.

    The random affix rolls in D3 is definitely needed to ensure that the same items have different stats, which promotes more diversity. The problem stems from lack of affixes, if the weapon doesn't roll a socket, it will most probably be a brim or vendor food. Yet this is no less similar to D2lod's random rolls on some items. EG If you rolled a 12/1 Faith or 30/340 Grief the item will be more or less unsellable.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  18. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator; Clan Officer West

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    They thought that the artisans and repairs were going to be the gold sinks. Train them up to make godly items for your characters. Item sink? Not sure what that means.

    So now that 1-3 are addressed, what are your thoughts on the game? Is it complete? Better than it was?

    If they sold something like 12-15 million copies, I read in an Incgamers article recently that they claim over 1 million are playing. That's a pretty poor retention rate. So if three of your items are addressed and I claim that they think four is complete, why are there so few players?
  19. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    It prevents high tier items from cluttering up the economy.

    Blizzard is currently controlling the drops via RNG in which only a small small percentage of items would roll the desired affix, EG 6% CC Mempo

    Item sink: What some games do is to give high tier items upgrade slots, you can choose what you want to do with the slots like improving damage, but if you fail the upgrade, the item gets destroyed. The bad side is if Blizzard is not too careful with the numbers, even more overpowered items will fluctuate the market.

    I mean they are addressed in the recent blog by the all so mysterious Travis Day for 1.08 and future patches. The current game is definitely a huge improvement but there is more to be improved.
  20. Ivan E

    Ivan E IncGamers Member

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    Actually, that's a pretty stellar retention rate.

    Retention rate past first launch (not game launch, as in user buys/installs/launches game from their desktop) is about 50%. Only 10% of users even get to the end of a game they purchased. So 1/15 (your highest number, leading to the worst case) = ~7% retention, which is absolutely stellar considering the game is 11 months old. Sure, you could say that the scale we should use to measure D3 is different because it's a not a linear, one-story-playthrough game (most games are, and hence the retention stats I noted above reflect them). But most people I know actually bought D3, finished normal, and stopped playing there, and I'm guessing that most of the 10 million / 12 million / 15 million / whatever purchasers are actually more like my aforementioned friends, rather than the relatively hardcore that would care about the game's failures. So I think a retention rate of well over 5%, 11 months after launch, is a rousing success, considering that literally half of all game purchases are played for about 2 hours and then never touched again.

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