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If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fate

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by Azzure, Aug 4, 2012. | Replies: 66 | Views: 6855

  1. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    We have heard numerous times that Blizzard do not want Diablo 3 PvP Arenas to be e-sport-y. That's all good and well, but Blizzard have taken the unprecedented stance of "Not only will we not build the game around e-sports, but we will purposely try to steer it away from ever being a viable e-sport." This thread is not about e-sports, but this stance touches on the subject of Rankings and PvP competition.

    They have also stated quite a while ago that there is no plans for PvP ladders or rankings, and Arena is just a way to kill other players for fun, and give you Banner rewards. In other words, PvP Arenas are purely a "practice mode" style of PvP, that has no type of rankings or tracking of wins/losses etc. It will function exactly like WoW Arena "Practice mode" does.

    In fact, you won't even be able to see your own, or anyone else's win-loss ratio.

    I'm as liberal as the next guy, but putting in a PvP system that is based purely on "practice games" with no scoring, no competition and no meaningful "profiling" is probably the quickest way to destroy PvP. There is a reason why almost nobody plays Practice Arena games in WoW. It's pointless, boring and you don't get a payoff at the end.

    Yes, many people will say "I don't care about ratings, I just want to have fun and kill people". That's fine, except that it's not true, at least in the long-term. People need a goal to work towards, in order for them to invest significant time to that system. Yes you might only want to play PvP very casually, and that is why it will probably only appeal to you in the short-term. But when you have this robust item-system and character development that you work towards daily, you will want some kind of payoff from PvPing.

    Imagine Starcraft 2 with no ladders, and every game was simply a "just for practice and funz". It would lose all notions of longevity in an instant. I think D3 PvP is not that dissimilar to SC2, both are competitive and involve human players competing for a win.

    Blizzard don't want players to have their ratings shown, or any kind of visible representation of success in a competitive atmosphere. They are worried that people who aren't super-successful in PvP (ie the majority of players) will get upset that they don't get that shiny text next to their name, or that their name doesn't appear on the top 100 ladder list.

    I think this stance ties in with the D3's Developers main disconnect with what it takes to make a long-lasting game. It is present in a lot of their end-game design decisions and is one of reasons that they failed to make D3 have a good end-game and long-lasting fun for the people playing it: Dumbing down mechanics in a way that removes all emotional attachment to the game in the long-term. They opt in for short-term things such as super-Accessibility, ease-of-use and removal of complexity, and strip the game of it's long-lasting detail, emotional engagement with the player via their meticulously designed characters and mechanics, and remove all notions of investing in your character with more than brainless killing of monsters.

    They are so afraid to give the game complexity and tough-love to players through systems like competitive ladders, showing losses, more complex mechanics that require you to investigate, that they leave you with a game that only has short-term strengths (such as accessibility) and than we are left with a hollow game with no heart left in it in the long-term.

    I hope they prove me wrong, but I think this un-ranked PvP practice system that will be released will be just as much of a failure as their other major end-game systems have been thus far. It might be fun for a few days but people will stop playing the same way as they have been so far, with no ultimate goal to work towards.

    BUT AT LEAST WE WILL EARN NEW BANNER COLORS BY PVPING!!!!!!111
  2. Punkonjunk

    Punkonjunk IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    I'm not even into E-sports, but jesus ****ing christ, has blizzard dropped the ball on this one, and I hope we see a complete 180 on how they handle this. For D2 style, or practice styled games, give us in-game PVP - a hosty switch, hostile games, whatever. Easy to add a button: Join "hostile" game or join PVP game, or join co-op game. Hunt players, or hunt monsters, or fight dudes outside town, whatevs. AND THEN GIVE US AN ARENA STYLE PLAY WITH RANKINGS. WITH WIN-LOSS RECORDS. WITH SOME REASON TO PLAY PVP INSTEAD OF FARMING. man.... I am so confused by their plans for pvp.
  3. Sky Tan

    Sky Tan IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    Which actually becos of this 180 it took so long for PVP be implemented till now.

    Skills, Items, Mods. Balance. But what the heck their strike team, internal testers...pretty much...lolzy

    So may as well open BETA to all wipe in a month and troubleshoot.
  4. acken

    acken IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    D3 is a regression on so many level it astonishes me.

    Or maybe Blizzard is just0 becoming more and more casual centered, their games being simpler as time goes by, removing any competitive features, adding RMAH. I don't know man its just... sad.
  5. Simfish

    Simfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    Actually, StarCraft 1 didn't have a fully functional ladder system that was recognized by the community at large. Initially, people joined clans and fought in scrimmages in order to determine who in the community were the best StarCraft players, and it wasn't until later when iCCup became a widely recognized ranking system for players all over the world.

    But even despite those initial limitations, the game balance was so compelling and the skill ceiling so widely revered that people justified spending hours on the game as a means to display skill in video games. I went to high school with a kid who would spend hours in his dorm room after classes scrimming with some of the toughest clans in SC.

    I don't think it's as simple as putting a carrot on a stick in order for the players to come. Make a compelling, balanced game with reasonable differentiators in skill, and the people will come. Make a game like WoW in the modern era, and you will only have people using balance as an excuse for their inability to win games. Failure to address balance issues in a timely manner and stay sharp on the metagame will result in players eventually quitting in frustration.

    While you can provide people a sort of extrinsic motivation to keep playing the PvP, ultimately, how successful the game will be will depend on the quality of the PvP experience itself. I'm not familiar with how popular D2 PvP was in the Blood Moor, but I know there were those who loved it.
  6. acken

    acken IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    I get your point and of course the most important thing is to get a good competitive experience first. Then ladders and goals come just after.

    But don't forget we are in 2012 not in 1998. Internet is now a LOT more widespread and good alternatives for competitive games are many. Structured player vs player is also something that has become expected rather than a nice bonus.


  7. Kblavkalash

    Kblavkalash IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    What's worst is that they want to make ONLY 4v4 deathmatch option and nothing else lol. Because 1v1 would make it too "e-sportish".

    I will laugh so hard if they delay pvp for 6 months and give us nothing just 1 stupid deathmatch mode lol.
  8. sacridoc

    sacridoc IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    Have you seen the maps yet? Doesn't look so good lol...

    D3 PVP will probably be like RT in WC3 or BGs in WoW. You queue up and just kind of mess around for a while.

    Some people will have better gear so they'll do better than others (just like in WoW) but even the best players can end up getting zerged down because it's a deathmatch where the enemy continually respawns.

    The skills in this game aren't intricate enough to produce a high quality PVP experience. People who want that should have already moved on to one of the MOBAs out there.

    Realistically... this whole game is designed to give players a break from WoW (even though it's similar) or for people to play who are super casual when it comes to video games, or just don't stick to 1 game.
  9. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    They will drop some marbles into the machine and see if something breaks or gets a bit better.
  10. Golbez2

    Golbez2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    D3 isn't a sequel, its a reboot, not a very good one either at the moment.
  11. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    OP makes some good points but without proper skills balances (very difficult in a game like D3), rankings will just turn it into a nerd-raging QQ fest.
  12. Nagafen

    Nagafen IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    I said it long ago. If they seriously intend to implement PvP the way they initially outlined it, they will satisfy exactly zero people. If the game had been great, that might have been okay - they could say that they just don't want to deal with the whole PvP spiel for this title. That's obviously not the case, and an astonishing amount of players cite the impending PvP as the only reason they're still keeping an eye on the game at all. I think it'll collapse completely if they introduce PvP as some inconsequential minigame that can by definition not be competitive because it's specifically designed for competitiveness to be impossible. Not only that, but given the itemization and loot mechanics, it's destined to be completely pay-to-win even if they do decide to create a PvP template that anybody would actually care about. PvP only works when only skill matters (like in SC2 and LoL) or when everything else is more or less equal because any reasonably dedicated player can get the best gear (D2, WoW). Neither are the case in D3, it is effectively impossible to get anywhere near the best possible gear without spending hundreds upon hundreds (if not many thousands) of dollars/euros on the RMAH. Imagine how popular, serious and succesful WoW arenas would be if the only way to get anything better than the bottom-level blue PvP sets was to spend $100+ per item. What Blizzard originally outlined for D3's PvP is even worse than WoW's practice arena because D3's itemization is so absurd.
  13. sacridoc

    sacridoc IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    The map design gives a good clue to how seriously they're taking this I think.

    Or maybe the fact that it wasn't ready at release.

    WoW PvP looks amazing compared to 4v4 Deathmatch, with no ranking system, in a PtW format where skills aren't complicated enough to make it anything but a DPS zerg with occasional full immune abilities to avoid damage.
  14. Dreamcrusha

    Dreamcrusha IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    no point on playing d3 if pvp isn't including rankings or ladders cause i wanna own the best
  15. AlexanderBarin

    AlexanderBarin Clan Officer - US East Hardcore

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    I think same is true for PvE. People need to wake up in the morning and think "****e, someone is going to overtake me on the ladder, I have to go play D3!!!".

    Ladder rankings are key. Endless grind for minimal rewards to level 200, 2000, doesn't matter. Diablo needs em to survive.


    As for PvP, rankings shouldn't be based on gear. Since we will only get matched with people who wear same gear, it should only be about win/loss ratio + number of matches played.
  16. Nagafen

    Nagafen IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    The game can't realistically determine how good a piece of gear is, only its ilvl and maybe some factor of its total stats or another equally primitive value. It's logically impossible for a simple coded system to have that kind of judgment when it would have to factor in such things as class, metagame, build and team strategy. It's obviously meaningless to base anything on ilvl in this game, that only works in WoW where that's a relevant factor. More importantly, even if they were to miraculously create a system that could accurately determine whether your gear is better than the next guy's, it would still be a default truth that the ultimate winner is a guy who can afford to buy the best stuff on the market. It doesn't mean that being rich means you're guaranteed to win, but it means that among the good players, only the rich will sit at the very top. In this game, there's absolutely no way for someone in average gear to compete with similarly skilled players in thousands of dollars worth of gear. Unless by some Hollywood miracle there's a player who's just a god at D3 PvP and also too poor to afford high-end items, PvP in D3 will be ruled by those who can buy perfect items. And unlike in D2, those items are completely out of reach for normal players and there's no almost-as-good alternative. What you can get by farming and trading is nowhere near what you can get by throwing a fortune at the RMAH. There are no slightly-below-perfect rolls that you can get for cheap and no last-season-gear you can get by farming. That makes D3's PvP a joke by definition.
  17. nessah

    nessah IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    I don't care about ladders in pvp that much.
    Only thing that is needed is a custom game mode to be able to make your own tournament.
    If it won't be provided then any kind of ladders and **** won't make that PVP competitive.
  18. Forgotten One

    Forgotten One IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    It's a bold prediction that a game mode which isn't used by the majority of players will seal the game's fate.
  19. imthedan

    imthedan IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    They would have to change skills to balance it in PVP. They aren't going to do this. This game is doomed.

    Just wait for PoE to go into Open Beta and start playing that.
  20. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Re: If Blizzard Release PvP Without Ladders, Rankings or scores, it will seal D3's Fa

    The only thing that's doomed is poe, stop advertising that pos here.

    What kept d2 pvp going, ironically, was how others were more overpowered than the rest, just look at the amount of hammerdins/smiters in public pvp.

    I doubt gear would make a HUGE difference in D3 PvP because at moment, the only difference would be +stats/HP/all resists. It's still the skill choice that matters. PvP is already better in D3 than the garbage that was in D2.


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