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How Runewords Runed Diablo.

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by Clervis, Mar 13, 2012. | Replies: 56 | Views: 6209

  1. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Is anybody else kind of disappointed the post-1.09 runewords have really had a negative impact on the utility of rare and magic items you could get? Runewords, for the most part, aren't that difficult to build. Grief, for instance, is merely two high runes in a regular old phase blade. Meanwhile, you could shop your whole life, find an item with all of the greatest stats and it would still be vastly inferior to runeword options. I cooked this up in a thought experiment.

    Ethereal Master's Fool's Cruel Berserker Axe of Quickness Restoration Amplify Damage Socketed with a Realgar Carmine Crimson Jewel of Wrath Bliss Glacier
    Damage: 236-684
    +480% Damage
    +18 Minimum Damage
    +67 Max Damage
    +40% Increased Attack Speed
    +1883 Attack Rating
    5% Chance to Cast Level 1 Amplify Damage
    5-15 Cold Damage
    Repairs Durability

    This has perfect mods primarily focused on damage maximization. At 460 average damage, it is only marginally more powerful than Grief PB's 433, but is far slower and lacks the 20% DS. I threw in Amplify Damage, but that's available through other items, and often not even preferable in builds. If you put these all onto a two-handed weapon, it could be better, but BotD or Death would still probably be superior.

    Ethereal Master's Mechanic's Cruel Thunder Maul of Quickness Restoration Amplify Damage Socketed with 2x Ohm
    Damage: 322-1755
    +550% Damage
    +40% Increased Attack Speed
    5% Chance to Cast Level 1 Amplify Damage
    Repairs Durability

    That's 1039 average damage vs. about 800 from BotD. But this misses out on the wonderful mods like Death's ~50% DS & CB; BotD's 60% IAS, LL, ML, Stats, etc.. You'd have to overcompensate with other gear selections for this brutal power output.

    The point being that given the fortuitousness of actually landing something like this, don't you think that rare items should at least have the capacity to outshine these cheesy runewords? Magical items, too. Given their lack of extra mods, shouldn't their top tier mods have the capacity to overdo damage. Cruel, for example, tops out at 300% damage, which is less than about 20 runewords which have all sorts of other ridiculous mods.
  2. TheWorkingBoor

    TheWorkingBoor IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Yeah, I agree that they can be pretty ridiculously powered. If you look at the items that don't have sockets, then magics & rares (& crafts) really have a good chance to be the best there is (with a few exceptions). The helm-slot is the one socketable-area where runewords don't seem to dominate. But once you get into the shield and armor slots - and especially in the weapon slots - the most high-powered & versatile options are generally runewords (again, with a few exceptions).

    The only consistent exceptions I can really think of is specialty-builds, or builds/items that heavily utilize sockets (JMoD, Jewelers/Stability armors, etc.) - those seem pretty reliable for avoiding the runewords. Of my high-powered characters, only my Cow runner doesn't use much for runewords (LF-amazon, with Titans, Griffon's Eye, and faceted jewelers-armor of stability & faceted Head Hunter's Glory - though I do have a Harmony on switch for the Vigor aura, but I could easily do without that one).

    PS. IIRC, rare jewels can only have a maximum of 4 mods - so your socket in the BA would be even more limited.
  3. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Oh. Right. Well I guess you can drop the glacier and crimson to only make marginally less effective, but it sucks either way next to a Grief.

    Diablo's strength, I feel, is its versatility and options and the replay value you get because of that. Between 7 characters there's probably a couple hundred builds. The runewords do help this in a way, but I hate how they've totally eclipsed magic, rares, and even a lot of uniques so you don't really get much of a jolly from a lot of good drops.



  4. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    I agree in some ways, but I think you should keep in mind that runewords were also (I think) conceived based on the (bad) assumption that duping would be solved or that runes wouldn't be duped. Back in the day legit runes were incredibly rare; legit awesome runewords would also thus be very rare.

    This of course failed immediately because duping wasn't fixed or even made very difficult.

    By the way, that fantastic eth berzerker axe can't have the Master's and Fool's mod; they're in the same group, so the axe is even worse.
  5. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Gettin crappier by the minute.
  6. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Rares are still valuable in certain slots, just not in every slot. I don't really have a problem with that. Rare/crafted ammys, rings, belts, boots, and gloves are best-in-slot for many, many builds. For a lot of builds rare circlets are also best in slot, and for many other builds unique hats, armor, weapons, and shields are best in slot.

    So, basically rare/unique items aren't best for every slot thanks to the 1.10 runewords. I don't see that as a bad thing.
  7. mackscynox

    mackscynox IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    yes they ruined diablo. but they did their purpose well. it was to gather old players to d2 again. blizzard did not even think of such things, killed rares. in some very very very rare case your eth BA might be better than a runeword but consider spirit runeword.
  8. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Runewords only killed rare weapons to some extent, but rare armors, shields and helm were killed by uniques.

    You don't have to pick up any helms (except circlets) because of uniques and Tal's helm and it's similar with armors. Regarding shields, Moser's alone beats 99.99% of all rares.
  9. Deuterium

    Deuterium IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Much prefer Classic for this reason. Runewords and Charms incited heavy duping and killed the game.
  10. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Don't you think it would be more balanced if
    1. Magic items had the capacity to outdo rares/uniques/runewords in one mod, but lacked the extra mods.
    2. Rare items were slightly lesser than magic, but could also get additional mods.
    3. Uniques still a little lower in individual mods, but could make up for it with extra mods and mods exclusive to uniques (like active auras).
    4. Runewords could compete with uniques, but were harder to come by (as Karth mentioned above)

    This would provide even more flexibility and options for any particular build. Instead, nowadays it's just the case that Grief is vastly superior to any other 1 handed melee option, Faith is the best bow, Fortitude/Enigma beats most all armors, helms and shields depend a little more on the build. Of course, this is a gross oversimplification, but, by and large, runewords make uniques/rares/magics (that use to be very near and dear to our hearts) obsolete. So image this:
    Crueler Sword of Quickerness
    +400-500% Damage
    +60% IAS

    Rare Sword
    +300%-400% Damage
    +40 Max Damage
    +7% LL
    +40% IAS
    +Other Random Mods

    Unique Sword
    Level 17 Might when Equipeed
    +250-350% Damage
    +Elemental Damage
    +30% IAS
    +Other Chosen Mods

    Runeword Sword
    10% CtC Level 1 Life Tap on Striking
    +200-300% Damage
    Indestructible
    +Other Chosen Mods

    None of these would be distinctly superior to the other, giving you all sorts of options and potential jackpots when farming.
  11. Mrjones

    Mrjones IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    The problem is blizzard didn't really balance any of the old uniques or buff rare mods.
  12. magicrectangle

    magicrectangle IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    They do.
    They are.


  13. mackscynox

    mackscynox IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    instead of boosting the rares, i would prefer buff or add additional mods to crafted items.

    for example such things would be awesome:
    - craft any type of item to get same result: instead of chain gloves use a gauntlets to get a knockback craft or instead of an axe only craft with all weapons (only melee/ranged difference maybe) can give same affixes
    - crafted items should have some very good mods: +10-20life doesnot give any good when spawns on a weapon, but %10-20 crushing blow or deadly strike or 200+edmg would be nice
    - instead of 4mods limitation on crafted items (2suff, 2pref i think), make it 6 again like a rare item so it should have craft mods + 6affix
    - make crafted items socketable by larzuk but giving some chance to have more than 1 socket, maybe like a magic item %50/%50
    - make a special recipe for class specific items giving special class unique mods or oskills (not too godly though, maybe blood/fire golem to sorceresses, enchant on amazons, fade/venom on druids etc...)
    - allow ethereal items to craft and generate an ethereal crafted item

    i wont mind if blizzard makes the crafting runes a bit higher. if i have a chance to get a good item by using an ist in a crafting recipe, i would gladly use an ist.
  14. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    I think the situation is okay as it is. There's a place in D2 for everything. Sets, Uniques, rares, crafts, runewords, magicals.

    Consider gloves for instance
    -S/Us are like LoH or Dracs which are best for certain builds
    -Rares can have 6 mods, such as +2 MA, ias, 2 resists, etc.
    -Crafted blood gloves, crafted knockback gloves for some builds.
    -Archers gloves of alacrity ( +3 BC, 20 ias ), you can only have that on blues.
    -No runewords ( duh! )

    Almost all of the gear follows the same path.

    In case of weapons, yes, runewords are the most popular. But there's still a place for stuff like Schaefer's hammer, stormlash, Etombreaver, Reapers, Azurewrath, ribcracker, the redeemer. These are very suitable for certain builds. I do agree that runewords like 'Death' made stuff like 'The Grandfather' or 'Bul Kathos sacred charge' obsolete.

    In armor there is a bigger problem, as the big guns ( Enigma, CoH, Fort ) basically wipe the floor with S/Us, and even the little guns ( Treachery, Duress, Stone ), still outperform them. In fact the only really good armor is SOVM, as it is the only armor with 30 fcr.

    In shields and helms, runewords are not the best for most builds, Spirit is the only one which really stands out.

    So really, runewords didn't 'ruin' diablo , they added another facet to the game.
  15. Black Lotus

    Black Lotus IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Dont forget that runes were supposed to be stupidly rare thing. Completing a runeword with Jah and Ber, two never-seen-cant-cube runes wasnt meant to be available for EVERYONE after 3-4 weeks of ladder.

    Prior to 1.10, or better say in 1.09, uniques were dominating for casters, shako/viper/occulus/magefist/sojs were pretty much everyone's solution as I remember (oh there also was unique balrog's skin), with a little strafe to mf sometimes (war travs/nagels and that 30mf 10ias unique belt with 3 rows of potions). I can actually remember only 2 runewords I could have found a use of in 1.09, wealth and rhyme (was it possible to make rw in magic items in 1.09? dont remember). Unique mods still cant appear on rares, but rws made mfing less effective.
  16. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    Of course you guys can find exceptions (especially in glove slots, which can't get runewords), but it doesn't change the fact that by and large, people are now using and abusing runewords (especially for weapons & armor) at the expense of magic/rare/crafted/unique alternatives, because 1. they've inadvertently become too available, as many of you have mentioned, and 2. to a considerable they outclass the alternatives.

    The point is, Diablo has awesome replay value due to its robustness in skills and equipment. Seeking to enhance this robustness, they came out with the 1.10 runewords, which created a whole new set of possibilities. Unfortunately, they also eclipsed the old possibilities so the net gain of popular builds remained relatively the same. But there was an economic impact by these changes as well that pushed uniques to a cursory role and created new locus in HR's, which have been duped to ridiculousness. Perhaps saying that the system is now "runed" is melodramatic, but the robustness of equipment is far less significant than the robustness of skills. To compensate for this, a re-equalization (buff) of magic/rare/crafted/unique items could potentially really increase the options available to builds and get us away from the HR-dominated economy.
  17. Mrjones

    Mrjones IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    The biggest problem I had is the chest piece. Fort coh enigma are really the best armors in the game. Nothing rare or unique can really compete with them other then viper and tals.
  18. mir

    mir IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    I agree that runewords ruined diablo economy on b.net but don't forget that b.net environment actually force you to use those runewords. It hard for me to explain it but in short: it's much easier to get good runewords then good rares or specific items (if you want to build around specific uniqe). Add to this the limited stash and poor muleing system and your possibilities are limited even further.

    There is a simple solution to your problem in SP (and I'm not saying you should play SP or something like that), you can make yourself some rules about the game like:

    * No sharing of items between chars for questing – the 1 reaper you have will be used only on 1 char
    * A build for every set
    * Not using the same item on more then 2-3 chars
    And so on…

    The above (especially without RWM) will force you to use rares or uniqes that you never used before and the unlimited stash allow huge equipment customization


  19. Greizer

    Greizer IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    The typo in the thread title is delicious. Did you make it on purpose? If you did, I wonder if it can be called a typo then? :scratchchin:
  20. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Re: How Runewords Runed Diablo.

    It's a pun! :)

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