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Grail, Astreon's and Tyrael's left - Baal or Pindle?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by dizelsky, Mar 25, 2013. | Replies: 105 | Views: 8147

  1. dizelsky

    dizelsky IncGamers Member

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    The question is easy: I'm doing Grail search, only two items left - Astreon's and Tyrael's. What would you choose: going for Pindleskin and trying to get Astreon's only, or doing Baal runs and having a possibility of dropping Tyrael's as well? I do baal runs right now, but got tired a bit and simply can't make up my mind. Additionally, I've done ~40k pindle runs so far. greetz and thanks in advance! :)
  2. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    If you're doing a Grail search with Tyrael's and Astreon's left, Pindle is literally useless and Baal is almost literally useless.

    Spend your time in a level 85 area. Pits is good, or Ancient Tunnels.
  3. Grisu

    Grisu IncGamers Member

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    Seconded.

    Also, grats on grail -2! That's nothing to be done easily...and join the perfect grail hunt on your way to the grail!
  4. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    Pindle cannot drop Tyrael's Might.
  5. dizelsky

    dizelsky IncGamers Member

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    Thanks! it took me about 1,5 year, but I didn't played regularly.

    Perfect Grail? that's insane! :) I don't know if I am crazy enough to do this ;)

    Yes, I know, that's why I've been choosing betweent Baal and Pindle.

    Best drop at The Pit - Griswold's weapon, Tunnels - DW, dancers, Zod rune, Baal minions gave me Mang's and griffon's, pindle - another mang's, df, 2xcoa, griffon (of course that's not the only good drops but the best I can remember). I've spent some time on tunnels but simply got bored. I guess I will go for the Pit (players 6, 525mf)- I have a lite sorc so there will be no need for tokening her :) thanks for advice! :)
  6. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    Dont play P6, go with P7 or P5.

    Have a javazon in pits, it is great. AT is a little over rated, I think ppl run it because blizz sorcs are so popular :)

    I did find my one and only Aesterons at Pindle, but as said Tyreals is not something he will drop.

    Good Luck!
  7. FredOfErik

    FredOfErik IncGamers Member

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    If only looking for astreon's/tyrael's definitely go for p1 :)
  8. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    Why? Wouldnt P3 be the overall most kill/time/drop efficient? And then if its pits, you can go higher because monsters are so weak?
  9. srrw

    srrw IncGamers Member

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    The monsters that can drop Tyrael's Might in the Pits have the same chance to drop it on /p1 as on /p8. If you're not looking for anything else /p1 is the best choice.
  10. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Bosses and champions will by very far be the main sources of uniques, so better to kill more of them faster than to hope for one of their minions to drop Tyrael's. Normal monsters (hereunder minions) are the only ones in those areas with a nodrop chance, so lowering nodrop by increasing players setting makes little sense, since normal monsters cannot drop Tyrael's anyway.

    /players1, focus on run times and MF. Unless you REALLY enjoy baalruns....
  11. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    Still if you are also looking for Aesterons wouldnt it be better to play on P7? Or is it the same for that item as well?
  12. Cyrax

    Cyrax IncGamers Member

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    You're missing the exact same 2 as i am.

    Only a year and a half of unregular playing?! Wow, either you're very lucky or i'm very unlucky. My last restart was when 1.11 came out and even though i play a lot, i only got from -3 to -2 a couple of months ago.

    Anyhow, GL on the remaining parts.
  13. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    Personally I would always run on P1 if you're simply looking for items, I sometimes run P8 or P3 if I'm levelling a character at the same time.

    In terms of efficiency, have a look at Fabian's pit runner, certainly the most efficient I've seen; link


    I've never actually tried it, but I'm led to believe they can be fragile (but the most efficient regardless), so its not the right build if (like me) you do other things whilst playing. I tend to watch tv or listen to physics podcasts.

    In that case, blizzard sorc in AT would be my favourite. Or if it has to be the pits, then a novamancer is good, as is a hammerdin. Both highly efficient. There are probably a couple more efficient builds, but not that I've personally tried out.
  14. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Grail -2 in 1.5 years is certainly exceptional. I've been playing about that much, but only at grail -15, -10 not counting cow/tc3s. Self found grail that is, not traded items.
    And yeah only the bosses and champions can drop Tyrael's anyway, and they drop the same on all psettings, so you only need p1. Though I don't really agree with that sort of playstyle but if you are dead set on just a tyraels that's the way to go.
  15. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Pretty much same deal here for numbers ;)
    Just a bit over a year.

    I say Pits or AT or WS K or CS. WS K is nice if you plan to run baal, just use a char that can do both?
  16. dizelsky

    dizelsky IncGamers Member

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    It's self found grail certainly. You lifted my spirit saying I'm lucky, sometimes I was in despair doing 700 pindleskin runs a day and finding only natalya's weapon. Thx :)

    How about Astreon's ? regular monsters can drop it too, so wouldn't it be wise to go for higher than p1 player setting? Regular monsters at several 85 areas and minions at pindle dropped me such items as dancers, steel pillars, ghostflame, DFS, dragonscale. And another question arises to me - if going for full mf, ~800mf with blizz on AT or lite sorc 70fcr, 705mf on the Pit - assuming p1 setting, which would be more effective?
  17. Grisu

    Grisu IncGamers Member

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    It's only worth upping the player setting if it doesn't hamper your killing speed. Someone did the math, and it only pays off if your average run time at higher player setting isn't much higher than on /p1, but I don't recall the exact numbers...Fabian maybe???
  18. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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  19. FredOfErik

    FredOfErik IncGamers Member

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    Also highering psettings to increase drop odds from normal monsters requires you to actually kill normal monsters, which I'm pretty certain will be much less efficient than going for only bosses on p1.
  20. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    What player setting is optimal for Pit runs depends on a number of factors. Arguably the most important ones are:

    Playing style - a Poison Nova Necro will have much greater relative success at p7 than at p1 (since a poisonnecro tends to kill pretty much the entire screen with a few novas and a few corpse explosions) than a Berserker Barbarian (whose killing method of choice is a single target attack primarily meant for bosses).

    Goal - If your goal is to find some Uniques while also finding a good number of charms, jewels and runes, killing lots of monsters at a high player setting (poison necro or lightning fury amazaon at p7) is going to be good. If your primary goal, the thing which you want to maximize, is to find Uniques, period, it's very likely you will want to focus on killing bosses and champions only, on p1. I say "very likely" because these considerations are affected by a number of other things as well, like how much MF you wear and how fast you run (in addition to the "how many monsters do I kill, and how many of each type of monster" thing). Giving a definite answer based on generalizations is probably tricky. Another goal which matters to some people is gaining experience; if you want to get to level 96 or higher, killing boss packs only on p1 will not achieve that goal for you particularly fast. Doing semi-full clears with a poison necro on p7 or p8 would certainly be better for your goal.

    In this particular case, where what we know is that someone wants to maximize his chances of finding Astreon's and Tyrael's, the best way to go about this will almost definitely be to focus on killing boss packs as quickly as possible (which pretty much means p1) with as much MF as possible. Consider that bosses and champions are the monsters far most likely to drop you a Tyrael's; these are also the monsters where a higher player setting will not increase your chance of having a Tyrael drop at all. If we assume you lose any time at all by increasing player setting from p1 to p3 (or p5 or p7), then you would increase your efficiency by not playing at the higher player setting. If we assume you DON'T lose any time by playing at p3 instead of p1 (which I would say is a very very shaky assumption), that means your killing power is great enough that you could most likely wear more MF at the expense of some killing power gear; the end result would be that p1 bosses/champions would still go down (almost as) fast, but you'd wear more MF and thus increase your efficiency. Basically, it's almost impossible to think of a scenario where p1 isn't the optimal player setting for someone who wants to find a particular Unique, when only considering bosses and champions.

    This brings us to Minions and Regular monsters. For a higher player setting to be "worth it", you'd have to kill enough minions/regulars, so the increased chance of finding the item(s) you're after from minions/regulars offsets the lost "efficiency" from killing bosses and champions at a slower pace. This gets complicated further by the fact that you can probably wear different amounts of MF if you play on p1 than if you play on p7. Actually quantifying this is pretty tricky, since it will obviously greatly depend between different characters. As a rule of thumb, the more monsters you kill without slowdown, the more likely it is that a higher player setting could be comparable to p1. This can be estimated decently well if you know (=estimate) how many monsters of each type you kill (on p1 and on the higher player setting), how much MF you're wearing (on p1 and on the higher player setting) and how fast your runs are (on p1 and on the higher player setting). If you have estimates of those things, you can get a comparison by plugging them into this spreadsheet I made some time ago. For most people and most characters, this is probably overkill and just doing p1 runs is probably going to be good. Certain characters (the poison necro and javelin amazon mentioned earlier for instance) are good candidates for where a higher player setting can actually be good though, since they naturally tend to kill more monsters than the boss relatively easily.

    Now, the reason everything I wrote above isn't very important in this case is because Tyrael's can't be dropped by regular monsters. That makes it even more of a stretch than before to assume a higher player setting could be better than p1. Basically, now you only have the increased drop odds of Minions to offset the time you lose from killing bosses/champions slower, and there just aren't that many Minions in any given Pit run. I'm not going to say it's completely impossible that a higher player setting could still be good, but I am going to say that even if that's the case, you could optimize your character choice further to where p1 would be better.

    In summary, if you want to find Tyrael's Might (and this is the main consideration since Tyrael's is so much harder to find than Astreon's, anyway), you want to kill bosses and champions as quickly as possible with as much MF as possible. This pretty much means doing runs as fast as possible on p1, focusing on those boss and champion packs. Wearing as much MF as possible is definitely helpful, but if it slows you down, chances are that extra MF isn't worth it. An extra second off your average run time is worth a lot more than an extra couple % of MF in terms of your efficiency. This type trade-off can also be analyzed with my spreadsheet, for those interested.

    A Lightning Sorc is a pretty good character for running the Pit. If I was in your shoes, I'd fire her up on p1 and see how fast you can (consistently) run. If the bosses take some time to kill, I'd consider dropping some sources of MF in exchange for some more killing power. In general though, I love me some high MF numbers :)

    As for your last question (which I only saw just now) re: blizzsorc in AT vs lightning sorc in Pit, I would guess it's likely the blizzsorc will be slightly more efficient. Answering that more accurately would mean figuring out how long runs take with each character and roughly how many monsters are killed by each character (which is pretty tough/annoying to get a good estimate on, but there tends to be significantly more boss packs in the Pit than in AT). I might be inclined to go with whichever one you enjoy the most, or to switch it up and play one when you get bored of the other. I think either way, both characters are pretty good choices. I'd pay attention to killing speed though, those are some pretty huge MF numbers! Any chance you could save a couple seconds per run in the long run by going to 5-600 instead? Something to consider.

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