Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates

Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by vileguy, Sep 13, 2011. | Replies: 15 | Views: 2446

  1. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    Came up with this a few hours ago and posted it in the general forum. I'll just quote myself.

    Hopefully from a balance perspective, these numbers are higher than the reality, but I don't currently see why they would be. This would require 2 procs (revenge and overpower), fully stacked bash (easy enough to maintain), use of ignore pain (if you want 50% leech instead of 10%, probably excessive, but worth using to stay alive until you throw), and most impotantly, a corpse nearby (i think). This is by no means a ranged build, it's just using a combination of effects to perform a devastatingly powerful aoe attack that would potentially fully heal you, with no cooldown, as long as you're under 20% health.


  2. TheOatman

    TheOatman IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    Do you think the build could generate enough fury to sustain this?
  3. ThulRasha

    ThulRasha Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    Since it is highly situational with a bunch of prerequisites, I don't think it's gamebreakingly overpowered.
  4. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    It's not sustainable no, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Normal play would be spam bash, use revenge and overpower when they come up. So far not using any fury. When you have a large amount of fury and corpse ammo, consider using weapon throw. You might want to sit on full fury until you get +crit buffs, or at least until there is a big clump you want to kill. If you are getting low, pop ignore pain and throw. If you're under 20%, it gets the boost of damage equal to 20 fury * 9 = 180% weapon damage on your 50% life steal as mentioned. If it's not under 20%, still 40% life steal and however much your fury converts into damage. The key is keeping bash up for +80% and only using weapon throw with lots of fury, preferably when under 20%. You can also just spam free hammer of the ancients under 20%, leeching 10% with a high crit rate, and it costs no fury.

    I assume that weapon throw wouldn't just give you the damage from all your fury without consuming it, and that you'd only bypass the 20 cost. This means that you can spam it when under 20% in an aoe situation to try and stay alive, whereas you spam hammer vs a single target, making sure to keep the bash buff up.

    I'm not sure it's overpowered. Being under 20% hp is being near death, and yes there are a lot of conditions leading to something like 4000% weapon damage aoe, but that's best case. Just being under 20% with lots of fury, even without the buffs, is potentially 1500%-2000% weapon damage aoe. 50% leech on that is huge, and even 10% is a ton of health depending on how many targets you hit.

    With a build like this you could definitely die, but compare it to normal barb play. You've got an aoe, a single target attack, fury generator and dumper, self heal and mitigation cooldown. The thing that makes this stand out is that as far as I can tell this is by far the most potentially powerful aoe attack. Yea it takes full fury, but it's worth it for a full heal + killing everything + surviving without a cooldown.


  5. TheOatman

    TheOatman IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    I see. It would require careful timing and skilled playing but it also seems like it could be a ridiculously powerful and versatile build. I like.

    Stuff like this makes me laugh even more when people try to say D2's skill system was better. The insane amount of options in D3 will reward those who are creative and can juggle a lot of different considerations while in combat.
  6. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    466
  7. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    A lot of this seems rather situational and assuming of certain mechanics.
    For example Bash with Indigo: You seem to assume the damage bonus applies not only to Bash.
    Damage reduction: Maybe this only applies to physical damage.
    The 40% life healed from damage taken while Ignore Pain is active: If this only applies to actual damage taken then you might heal nothing.
    As for what's situational.
    Ignore Pain: lasts for only 5 seconds yet has a 60 second cooldown.
    Revenge: it depends on getting hit and even if you get hit then you still have only 10% it procs and if then you activate the skill the critical hit % it gives only lasts for 10 seconds.
    Overpower: This is way less problematic as Revenge if having a high crit chance, but still it needs to proc, you need to activate it and only then you have extra crit for 6 seconds.
    And then you have Weapon throw which is runed to be a one expandable skill.

    I'm not trying to knock your build but this might be a case of "sounds good on paper, doesn't work in practise" since there's so much you have to try and juggle and only to be able to use a skill at it's maximum potential once every max fury ball.
  8. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    I'm only assuming what the tooltips say is correct. Does the movement speed increase from frenzy only work when you use frenzy? The damage boost on bash only lasts 5 seconds and if it only worked on bash it would be fairly weak. It's safe to assume it works on everything until proven otherwise.

    The damage reduction specifically says all damage taken in both cases. How can this be more clear. This also has no bearing on the focus of the topic which is the stacked throw damage. If it only applied to physical damage, that would be a barbarian problem, not a build problem.

    Reread the tooltips please. Ignorance is bliss is 40% life steal for 5 seconds, not 40% damage absorb or wtvr you're imagining. I don't mind a 60 second cooldown that prevents 65% of damage and for a few seconds and then fully heals me, how is this not a desirable skill?

    Revenge may not proc often, but 10s is a pretty long time for this buff. Overpower may or may not proc more often, and the buff is much shorter. The thing is, you don't need these buffs, they are just icing. With both you would have 57% crit without base stats or items. Without critting at all you're still doing 1500%-2000% weapon damage.

    Finally I'm not sure what you are saying about weapon throw, that I can get 1 big hit and then I'm spent? If that 1 big hit is doing 2000% weapon damage or higher, that sounds to me like enough to kill an entire pack of normal monsters or come close to doing so. If they survive, you should be full on health and can build fury again. There's no cooldown on the throw. The only ability in this build with a cooldown is a defensive move, so you can do full damage without it. You can do good damage above 20% hp with high fury, even better damage below 20% hp, and if the cd is up you can survive while low and get a full heal. It may even be possible to fully heal on a good throw without ignoring pain seeing as 10% leech on a ~3000%+ aoe attack should heal a lot, but I don't even know what health #s are like.


    If we reduce it to 70 fury and not below 20% health, that's 50 * 9 = 450%, + 210 = 660% weapon damage. Let's say you have only 5% crit from ruthless, and that you have the 80% buff from bash cuz that's easy to maintain. Not using ignoring pain, you can do 1306% average weapon damage aoe and leech 10% of that. On 8 targets, that's 1045% weapon damage health gained. This build has powerful single target and aoe damage, a good defensive cooldown, and self healing. If you are able to get crit gear and dump fury properly, it can do insane damage.


  9. TheOatman

    TheOatman IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    Lets try to keep it civil, we're all assuming stuff here. At the very least we're assuming that this stuff won't change by the time the game comes out. If vileguy's assumptions are correct though, this build would be the type of thing you would probable need to juggle in order to solo inferno. The build I posted (insanity barb) would be fun but probably not suitable when health globes aren't dropping often (I'm assuming they won't drop often in inferno).
  10. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    @ vileguy: You might be entirely right on all of it. (And yes, i did misread runed Ignore Pain, but do consider it assumingly only applies for those 5 seconds ignore Pain is active)
    I'm not saying any of those skills aren't good or desirable. But it just sounds to me that one needs to juggle a lot of skills to maximize your big area killer (weapon throw).
    You need to power Bash for the extra damage that lasts 5 seconds.
    You need to activate Revenge for the extra critical chance that lasts for 10 seconds.
    You need to activate Overpower for the extra critical chance that lasts for 6 seconds.
    And then you want to have your Fury ball at maximum to deal massive aoe damage with weapon throw.

    If i would try to improve on this build, then i would look for one additional Fury generator.
    I also would either dump Overpower or Revenge (because i think i would lack the skill to keep everything up all the time). I would also consider Battle Rage or Threatening Shout. And i'd look into Animosity to increase my Fury ball and No Escape to increase the damage of Weapon Throw a bit and almost ensure a free 20 Fury back into your Fury Ball when used.
  11. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    Not bad suggestions, I'm not trying to push a build, just showing the potential combination of skills. Again, I don't think you need all the stuff to line up for this setup to be a stupid amount of damage. Whirlwind for instance, with crimson runestone, only does 210% weapon damage per second and would do 1680% weapon damage over 8 seconds with I think a smaller area of effect. This would cost 64 rage. This is about the same damage for the rage as a weapon throw w/ my setup without the crit buffs. This should be worse because weapon throw is instant and then you can generate rate, whereas whirlwind is taking 8 seconds. Not that whirlwind is bad, I'm just showing how this setup does major damage. I don't even have no escape, but it's hard to say how much that passive would contribute. I'm also still not sure what the maximum fury is.

    Revenge and overpower are great because they do not cost any fury. Spam bash for fury, use overpower and revenge you can, suddenly you're full on fury. Another fury generator, ideally cleave, would be nice, but at what cost. It's probably not worth generating fury faster if it costs you the 80% damage buff, and if you drop hammer of the ancients you lose a significant single target damage ability. I don't think animosity is worth it even though it would increase the potential damage of weapon throw.

    Relentless is both an offensive and defensive passive. When I get down to 20% and am taking half damage, I can now spam hammer for free with my 10% life steal. If I weapon throw, it will do more damage than above 20% and I can cast it as much as I want until I leech up above 20%. The 50% damage reduction with increase damage output and thus increased leeching should help me stay alive. Why do I need 10% more fury generation. If I'm high on health, my fury could be 0 and I'm not at risk of death, and if I'm low on health I can use my abilities for free.

    No escape isn't very good here if you ask me. The bonus damage only applies to my aoe ability whereas bloodthirst, ruthless and relentless help me in every way. The energy gain isn't significant because I'm probably going to kill a bunch of monsters if I kill 1 with weapon throw. This would improve my clearing rate for areas but it probably wouldn't help me stay alive at all, only help me when I don't need the help. Lastly this isn't a tank setup so I don't feel the need for threatening shout. Life steal and health orbs should be enough to keep me going and ignore pain is for emergencies.


  12. Rokel

    Rokel IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    20
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    I don't normally play melee characters, but I think i might try this build out.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#cShZYg!ach!ZaZcZa
    I'm keeping it simple as it only has 3 attacks to worry about.

    Cleave as the main fury generator, runed for 260% weapon damage
    Seismic slam as the main fury dump attack, runed for 441% weapon damage along a straight line. This could also be used to hit ranged casters, long packs, bosses etc.
    Overpower for the fury free attacks which would be runed for 22% + crit

    to go with that all 3 shouts, with the passive that doubles the durations of all 3. That gives

    +100% armour
    +50% total health
    +100% damage on all attacks
    + 4% crit
    - 50% mob damage + 22 % more loot chance
    + massive health regen per sec (479 a sec, 10% of all attacks, 60% of total health per minute)

    pretty simple to play i would have thought.
  13. ZharTheMad

    ZharTheMad IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    i don't think that it's OP. what about resistances? what if the enemies have thorns and such? and it's highly conditional, might be good for pvp though, as seeing the build, fury would be hard to sustain in a prolonged monster encounter... :)
  14. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    I thought about something like this for PvP, and it's far less practical (if even possible). Firstly, how do you find a corpse to throw?

    As far as I know resistances will come on gear and I've only seen a couple abilities that grant them. I'm not sure it's safe to say at this point that obsidium warcry will be mandatory.

    Thorns on monsters could potentially kill you, ie. iron maiden remix. That would make an attack like this scary assuming the thorns is > the 50% life leech.

    The fury maintenance of the build is my favorite thing, I don't see why people underrate relentless so. You have bash as a mediocre fury generator, but with the +80% dmg it's better. Overpower and revenge are 0 fury and aoe, 1 of which heals you. Weapon throw is your aoe fury dump and hammer is your single target fury dump. A fight would go like this:

    Spam bash
    Revenge and overpower whenever they're up
    If fighting 1 target, use hammer when able
    If fighting a mob, use hammer when either low on health or when high on fury.

    Against a mob, the only way you're going to not have the fury to use weapon throw is if you go from above 20% hp to dead instantly, and if you're fighting something so tough maybe using ignore pain is wise before that point. As soon as you go under 20%, fury costs don't matter and you can spam hammer or weapon throw. Throw won't do 4000% damage if you're spamming it with little fury, but it'll still do a lot and potentially keep you alive since it has 10% life steal and you have 50% damage reduction. Factor in gear and you could have more life steal.

    The power of this build is you're strongest when almost dead, and you have life steal. That means if you're not almost dead, you are fine and it doesn't matter how well you kill, though you're killing speed should be fine with this setup. When you ARE almost dead, all you want is to not die by either A. killing everything or B. healing. This setup gives you several tools to help you survive when low health. The main problem is going to be dying really fast. This means you may need to focus your items on defensive stats, but the same is true for any character that doesn't want to die.

    Lastly, this build could work in hardcore, but I'm sure there are better options. You would somewhat want to go under 20% with this build, but you definitely don't want to let yourself get that hurt in hardcore. Playing safely/normally with this build would work in hardcore, and when you do get low relentless could potentially save your life, which is why I think it's a good option for hardcore.
  15. arentol

    arentol IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    I can all but guarantee the following three statements are facts. I am basing them on the idea that the developers are not idiots and the even crazier idea that they might have learned something from games that have come before like D2, WoW, and numerous other RPG games made by other developers in the last 15 years.

    All skill damage bonuses will be cumulative, not multiplicative. So in your original calculation (with 75 fury assumed) it would be 80+210+675 = 965% bonus damage, not 80*(210+675) = 1593%.

    The crit bonuses will be increases to your base chance to crit, not additions to it. So if your base chance is 10% then a 54% bonus would raise the chance to 15.4%, not 64%, or whatever you were assuming. If we assume 10% base crit chance, your damage calculation for crits should have been 1593*(1+(15.4%*(X-1))) = 1961 average damage (Where X is the damage multiplier for a crit). Hopefully the damage bonus for crits is more than 2x, or crits chance bonuses without crit damage bonuses will suck really bad.

    Life steal will only affect the target hit by the attack, not the targets hit by the AE. So no weapon damage*1931%*5 for you, it is *1 every time.

    The following is my interpretation based on the tool-tip for Weapon Throw with Golden Runestone and does not include any other skills in the build:

    Weapon Throw + Golden Runestone will do 210% weapon damage to the target hit by the throw. All other enemies within 22 yards of that target, which may or may not include the original target itself, will then take (9% weapon damage)*(fury expended) = 720% weapon damage (at full fury).

    This is a guess:

    It is highly likely there will be no crits on the AE portion of the weapon throw. I am not at all certain about this since different games go different ways on this issue, but given the basic nature of this ability it seems likely this will be the case.

    This is what it all adds up to:

    You will hit the main target for 357% weapon damage on average and the surrounding monsters (and possibly the main target again) for up to 720% weapon damage (up to 900% with Relentless active), with this being a bit higher if crits work on the AE. You would life steal about 178% weapon damage on average but you could only rely on getting 145%.

    It is still very nice damage and healing, but is considerably less than the OP's estimates, especially the healing.
  16. vileguy

    vileguy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Gamebreakingly Overpowered? You tell me.

    You certainly can't guarantee this. If you can prove it that'd be great, but this kind of thing is significant. If blizzard wanted battle rage to increase damage by 30% weapon damage, it would say weapon damage, but it doesn't. There's no way they would fudge the tooltips like that after a game like wow, I can guarantee THAT. Also, these aren't the same people who made D2.

    This is very unlikely because such gains would be incredibly small and worthless. A 27% bonus to a 5% crit chance is less than 2%. It's ludicrous to think that this is the way it will be. Blizzard isn't trying to trick you with their tooltips, and something like this would need to be worded differently. If anything, it would give you 54% of whatever your chance to not crit is, which would be 90% meaning you would gain 48.6% crit.

    2x crits don't make crit chance bad. A 2% chance to crit for 2x damage is a 1% damage increase, though the more you have the less effective it is.

    This is ludicrous. Your life steal will affect all damage, or maybe all physical damage done. How are you coming to these conclusions? You just think this sounds too powerful, cuz I do too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to deny the way things are. The tooltips may have errors, but assuming what we see is what we get, this is how it will work. "Gain 10% of all damage done as life." - "gain 40% of all damage done as life." This isn't ambiguous.

    This is a fair interpretation and I didn't consider it when admiring the skill. I'd say it's probably the likely case. Your number of 720 is off though because at under 20% health with relentless you should get 900% weapon damage on throw at full fury assuming this runestone doesn't fail under said conditions.

    I can't disagree more. It is highly likely that all damage in the game has a chance to crit unless it is explicitly said that it won't. Said games where additional effects could not crit were busted unless the additional effect was increased when the primary hit crit, then it would make sense because critting on the extra hit would be double critting.

    Your calculations seem fine but I don't think the mechanics will work out that way. Your average damage should be 2.08* normal with 54% crit and +50% crit damage, you should life steal from all damage and if the weapon throw rune does not give you the full damage of base + splash on all targets, it will be a weaker choice than whirlwind. Whirlwind does ~932% (not factoring in crit) for only 20 fury to everything in range, so it makes sense that for 100 fury you should be doing much more. If weapon throw is only doing 210% to 1 and 180% to all other targets for 40 fury, something is wrong.


    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011

Share This Page