Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding. der=

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by snowcatcher, Apr 17, 2012. | Replies: 58 | Views: 11136

  1. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    I really hope that two-hand weapons have at least double the physical dmg from their counterpart, the one-handed, which doesn't seem be the case, judging from the beta and the diablo3.com website on where the physical dmg of the weapons is posted.
    The reasons are as follows:

    a) +% bonus to attack speed greatly increases dual-wield attack bonus, that it does 1 handers.
    Lets take an example: Say you equip a two-hand weapon with 1.0 attack speed (1 hit per second). A lvl 60 character can easily have a +50% increased attack speed if not more. So what does that give ? 1.5 hits per second, 3 hits in 2 secs, or 0.5 attack speed, if you want it in number value.
    A two 1.50 attack speed weapons, will automatically boost attack speed by additional 15% ( a fixed bonus when we dual-wield) so we have +0.225 attack speed just from the dual-wield. If we apply 50% attack speed (on the two 1.50 attack speed weapons) we get +0.75 attack speed, add on the the 0.225 from the dual-wield, we end with a total of 0.975 increase in attack speed.
    So in conclusion, a two-hand weapon will give as a poor 0.5 attack speed increase (with descent, 50% ias on lvl 60) where the two 1.50 attack speed weapons will give us merely double the amount (0.97).

    b) Now that we covered the efficiency of dual-wield when it comes applying +% increased attack speed, it is logical to assume that spirit regeneration will be doubled right ? So lets throw in some numbers here as well. A barbarian using battle rage-into the fray runed version shout (critical hits have chance to generate 15 spirit) can easily get +15 spirit more while dual-wielding. +15 spirit per second is a huge difference my friends considering the fact that hits generate only 5-6 spirit per second.

    c) I am not completely sure about this, so maybe someone from the beta can confirm, but i am pretty confident that spells casting animation is linked to weapons attack speed. No need to explain any further here i think...


    d) The only advantage, such as it is, that two-handers have against dual-wielders is DoT (damage over time) based spells (earthquake, rend, blizzard, and couple of witch doctor's spells). This spells, when applied on monsters are based on the dps calculated on your character screen. I assume that dual-wield weapons might have a bit more dps over two-handers but the sheer ammount of spirit regeneration you get (atleast double) will more than make up for it when you start throwing those hammers of the ancients and seismic slams.
  2. Whodat

    Whodat IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    I don't think that's how it works. Each weapon attacks independently once the other weapon is finished attacking and the boost is a simple .15 attacks per second added on to each weapon. For example, if you have a two swords that attack 1 time per second, it will take 2 seconds to attack with both swords, they don't fire off at the same time. I think both are pretty balanced the way they are.

    With a big two hander you can usually deal the same damage per second, plus you can better front load damage on enemies (being able to kill them in one shot as opposed to two hits) and you also get increased range from melee attacks. The advantage to dual wielding is of course increased resource generation.
  3. starrise

    starrise IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    99
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    Don't forget there are instant cast abilities as well (typically cooldown oriented spells). I don't fully grasp how attack speed mechanics interact with cooldowns (if they do at all, or even if there is a global-type cooldown), but it seems that, say, Wave of Force does damage the instant you press the button regardless of attack speed. For this spell, which is better? It is clear that chunky slow weapons are much, much better with this ability.

    Now the decision isn't so generally clear...

    P.S. Yes, I understand that Wave of Force is partly meant to be a crowd-control ability. It is also a heavy damage ability with a cooldown. This means that it can also be useful to kill a powerful enemy at relatively low health that is threatening to run away and kill you from range. Or to completely wipe a group of weak mobs that is crowding you in, or to outright kill a swarm of ankle-biters that are trivial alone, but deadly in packs.
  4. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    this does not really get into dual-weild vs sword and board. i have wondered how the different weapons will balance against each other. to me it now seems like the game is built for dual-weilding which i am not sure if its good or bad. the IAS is very nice for characters using resource gen. 1 handed and shield vs dual weild might be closer, more damage vs more defense. there at least seems to be a real trade off with these two while 2 handers are just slower dps options? my throw barb was built around 2 handed mighty weapons though since it lacks a fury gen outside of the shouts and such
  5. DexA

    DexA IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    There are skills for every class which favour DW or 2H, so its more about your choice of skills, which is about your personal preference. I'm sure blizzard will keep it balanced so we are not forced to pick one because its better in every way.
  6. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    Here are the DPS numbers of the highest level vanilla weapons of each type, taken from d3db's scan of patch 16:

    [TABLE="width: 1046"]
    one handed dam min (min) dam min (max) dam max (min) dam max (max) dps min dps max aps % of highest average dps axes [TD="align: right"]149[/TD] [TD="align: right"]154[/TD] [TD="align: right"]275[/TD] [TD="align: right"]280[/TD] [TD="align: right"]275.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]282.1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.3[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.870679012[/TD] [TD="align: right"]278.85[/TD] ceremonial knives [TD="align: right"]71[/TD] [TD="align: right"]74[/TD] [TD="align: right"]288[/TD] [TD="align: right"]291[/TD] [TD="align: right"]251.3[/TD] [TD="align: right"]255.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.788580247[/TD] [TD="align: right"]253.4[/TD] daggers [TD="align: right"]67[/TD] [TD="align: right"]70[/TD] [TD="align: right"]203[/TD] [TD="align: right"]206[/TD] [TD="align: right"]202.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]207[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.638888889[/TD] [TD="align: right"]204.75[/TD] fist weapons [TD="align: right"]104[/TD] [TD="align: right"]107[/TD] [TD="align: right"]242[/TD] [TD="align: right"]245[/TD] [TD="align: right"]242.2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]246.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.760493827[/TD] [TD="align: right"]244.3[/TD] maces [TD="align: right"]186[/TD] [TD="align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="align: right"]344[/TD] [TD="align: right"]349[/TD] [TD="align: right"]318[/TD] [TD="align: right"]324[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]321[/TD] mighty weapons [TD="align: right"]150[/TD] [TD="align: right"]154[/TD] [TD="align: right"]277[/TD] [TD="align: right"]281[/TD] [TD="align: right"]277.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]282.8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.30023[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.872839506[/TD] [TD="align: right"]280.2[/TD] spears [TD="align: right"]209[/TD] [TD="align: right"]214[/TD] [TD="align: right"]310[/TD] [TD="align: right"]315[/TD] [TD="align: right"]311.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]317.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.97962963[/TD] [TD="align: right"]314.4[/TD] swords [TD="align: right"]104[/TD] [TD="align: right"]107[/TD] [TD="align: right"]242[/TD] [TD="align: right"]245[/TD] [TD="align: right"]242.2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]246.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.760493827[/TD] [TD="align: right"]244.3[/TD] wands [TD="align: right"]118[/TD] [TD="align: right"]122[/TD] [TD="align: right"]218[/TD] [TD="align: right"]222[/TD] [TD="align: right"]235.2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]240.8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.743209877[/TD] [TD="align: right"]238[/TD] 2 handed diabos [TD="align: right"]333[/TD] [TD="align: right"]341[/TD] [TD="align: right"]616[/TD] [TD="align: right"]624[/TD] [TD="align: right"]522[/TD] [TD="align: right"]530.8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.100104[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.855301321[/TD] [TD="align: right"]526.4[/TD] mighty weapons [TD="align: right"]531[/TD] [TD="align: right"]539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]579[/TD] [TD="align: right"]587[/TD] [TD="align: right"]555[/TD] [TD="align: right"]563[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.907186594[/TD] [TD="align: right"]559[/TD] polearms [TD="align: right"]562[/TD] [TD="align: right"]570[/TD] [TD="align: right"]680[/TD] [TD="align: right"]688[/TD] [TD="align: right"]590[/TD] [TD="align: right"]597.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.950079[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.962939091[/TD] [TD="align: right"]593.8[/TD] staves [TD="align: right"]460[/TD] [TD="align: right"]468[/TD] [TD="align: right"]685[/TD] [TD="align: right"]693[/TD] [TD="align: right"]572.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]580.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.935385111[/TD] [TD="align: right"]576.5[/TD] axes [TD="align: right"]507[/TD] [TD="align: right"]515[/TD] [TD="align: right"]613[/TD] [TD="align: right"]621[/TD] [TD="align: right"]560[/TD] [TD="align: right"]568[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.915243313[/TD] [TD="align: right"]564[/TD] maces [TD="align: right"]651[/TD] [TD="align: right"]659[/TD] [TD="align: right"]712[/TD] [TD="align: right"]720[/TD] [TD="align: right"]613.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]620.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.900073[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]617[/TD] swords [TD="align: right"]374[/TD] [TD="align: right"]382[/TD] [TD="align: right"]556[/TD] [TD="align: right"]564[/TD] [TD="align: right"]511.5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]520.3[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.838382211[/TD] [TD="align: right"]515.9[/TD] ranged bows [TD="align: right"]80[/TD] [TD="align: right"]82[/TD] [TD="align: right"]458[/TD] [TD="align: right"]460[/TD] [TD="align: right"]376.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]379.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.611343861[/TD] [TD="align: right"]378[/TD] crossbows [TD="align: right"]413[/TD] [TD="align: right"]421[/TD] [TD="align: right"]498[/TD] [TD="align: right"]506[/TD] [TD="align: right"]501.1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]509.9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.100108[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.821624235[/TD] [TD="align: right"]505.5[/TD] hand xbows [TD="align: right"]48[/TD] [TD="align: right"]50[/TD] [TD="align: right"]275[/TD] [TD="align: right"]277[/TD] [TD="align: right"]258.4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]261.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1.6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0.421527554[/TD] [TD="align: right"]260[/TD] [/TABLE]
  7. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    As you can see, 2-handers do almost double the DPS of one handed weapons. This wasn't the case before patch 16 - they greatly increased the difference in DPS (while increasing the DPS of all weapons). Either Blizzard is pushing almost every class towards two-handers, or procs have a much bigger role to play in end-game DPS (aside from efficiency, I cannot see a good reason aside from this why speedy weapons should be so heavily penalized in DPS). This also leads me to believe that procs are *not* based on a PPM mechanic, like others suspect.
  8. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    omg if these numbers are accurate then xbows do far more damage than bows and that is the worst possible thing ever. i had a feeling bliz would make bows crap since they are pushing the xbow thing so hard
  9. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    I'm hoping that the bow minimum damage is a mistake somehow - no other weapon in the game comes even close to that gap between the min and max of the weapon's DPS, meaning that the bow would be a uniquely "swingy" weapon. That would make xbows strictly better by a long shot (except possibly legendary bows that have completely different damage ranges).


  10. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    looking at the official site i also wonder if they are missing or more likely planning to add other level 60 bows. there are 3 lvl 60 xbows listed with the bow being about equal to the first one dps wise. maybe this just means they have not added all bows yet? as it stands now they are worthless next to xbows (i am only talking 2 handed here). at first i thought maybe it had really low min but a higher max damage but thats not even true. not only is the min super low but the max is lower also. if it stays this way i may not actually play a demon hunter since i really hate xbows. i pretty much refuse to use them in any game. i mean even looking at the uniques (i know not finalized) you would need a perfect roll on the windforce just to get slightly over a junk roll on the unique xbows. why even include bows if you are gonna make them so bad they are worthless? easier to just remove them if you dont want people using them


    end of rant..........for now
  11. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,358
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    261
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    2H weapons have between 20 to 35% more damage than a 1h weapon. Dual wielding gives an additional 15% attack speed bonus, aka 15% more DPS. So 2h weapons gain a net 20% increase in DPS than Dual-wielding. But a lot of that 20% bonus is offset by the additional affixes granted by the second weapon when dual-wielding, (such as +attack speed like you wrote in your example). So one could easily argue that 2H weapons are better. It's a matter of opportunity and choice in what weapons are available to you at the time.


  12. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.



    I know we've seen only so little from diablo 3 and judging this game by the beta is as foolish as it is naive. Yet i cant shake the feeling that dual-wielding will be mandatory for melle characters for another reason:
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/jeweler/recipe/radiant-star-amethyst

    Suck on that Azzure :D
    And btw, i read your post before you edited it, stating that i got it all wrong? Well i am pretty certain that my math is correct, i wont repeat the numbers here again since they are on the original post already. Yes i used a bit dumbed down numbers 1 and 1.5 when infact the attack speeds are 1.1 and 1.4 for the sake of simplicity. But i also added only 50% ias, which on lvl 60 could easily be more, thus resulting in even higher attack speed differences.

    also:
    I just watched beta playthrough of a monk dual-wielding, in the right hand he had javelin that adds +4 hp per hit while the other weapon had no life-leech whatsoever. He healed only once per 2 hits, meaning that bonuses from one weapon does not apply on each hit. I think if 1 weapon had 4 life per hit, and other have 10, then you get 4 per hit, then 10 per hit.

    Edit: Well i believe i found the only situation where two-hand slow attack speed high dmg is effective. "Damage return per hit" mobs. If there are any in diablo 3, then definitely this is where attack speed can be of disadvantage. If i remember correctly, in diablo 2 zealers were dying in 1 sec when attacking hell act 4 monsters under the iron maiden aura. If there are "returns 500 dmg per hit mobs", then you definitely wanna hit those as least possible, with as high dmg as you can...


    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  13. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    Either you're saying http://d3db.com/home is incorrect, or you're working off of old information.


  14. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    I believe he was referring to the beta, although i havent played it myself, i assume that dmg difference is not that high between one-hand and two-hand weapons.


  15. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    but bows and xbow is thats much and they are both 2 handed. even if you take the passive archery (would be forced to) for the 15% bonus, you still wont match the damage, and thats not counting any bonus xbow gets from archery. so ya my rant will continue it seems
  16. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    Naa, dps is not the only thing that is at stake here. How do you know the random stats they can roll. Perhaps xbows will have a more limited range of bonuses they can provide... it is too early to say. Monk's fists weapons also seem pretty low dps wise, but I am still rolling a monk as my first class.


  17. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    how much lower are the fist weapons compared to other 1 handed weapons? i guess i could look maybe you know off hand though. i assume both items will be able to roll the same mods about, maybe i am wrong in thinking that, it just seems the gap is so huge which would force anyone wanting to use a bow to get archery just to try and get close to equal damage
  18. snowcatcher

    snowcatcher Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    Yeah, i must agree for demon hunters dps is the most important attribute for the class. I mean it is important for babrs and monks, but if a weapon lack in dps compared to others, it can compensate by adding additional resistance/dodge chance/defense or even some sort of immunity such as fearless/cannot be frozen etc. Seriously i cannot think anything useful for demon hunters on weapons besides dps, since all you do is shoot, its not like you will tank or anything...

    Btw, fists weapons, if the chart is correct are 4 places above the lowest dps on that chart. It still doesnt bother me that much, monks can easily equip any mele weapons... also look at the two-handers, daibos got the lowest of dps.

    Btw, that chart doesn't feel right. Why would they make maces have the highest dps ? Shouldn't that be reserved for the demon hunter class weapons ?
  19. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    well the monk fist weapon should somewhat compare to mighty weapons right? i mean it would make sense. someone on the official forums said its because bows are faster but i am going by the dps numbers here so that dont make much sense to me. i guess the faster attack rate would allow for faster hate generation but beyond that i dont see any advantage. just seems kinda weak when the 2 are pretty much the same thing. the dps should be about the same, make xbows harder hitting but slower while bows do less damage but hit more often. in the end the dps about evens out, or it should anyway
  20. StrudelStraddler

    StrudelStraddler IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: Dual-wield is superior over 2 handers/weapon shield wielding.

    How does dual wield work, exactly? If you have a 1.5 attack weapon with a +50% IAS on it and a second 1.5 attack weapon with no IAS, are the speeds of the two weapons averaged or what?

Share This Page