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Dreaming Kicksin?

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Clervis, Nov 27, 2013. | Replies: 30 | Views: 4117

  1. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    I know there's a lot of different takes on Kicksins, but I was playing around with the idea of using dual Dreams. Typically this is reserved for builds that can synergize the Holy Shock (Pally/Sorc) but considering the Kicksin's ridiculous speed, it might be able to do some damage.

    A typical physically-based Kicksin does around 1.5K (before phys resists), with a buttload of Crushing Blow.

    A dual-Dream Kicksin could put out about 5.5K per hit, with a more modest CB.

    This would be done by using:
    Dream Helm
    Dream Monarch (1-1668LD)
    6 socket Phase Blade w/ Facets (+30%/-30%/6-444LD)
    Jewelers Armor w/ Facets (+20%/-20%/4-296LD)
    Blood Gloves (10CB)
    Upped Goblin Toe (25 CB)
    Might/Infinity Merc

    Now, the trick is that the Facets' +skill% is factored in twice. So, the +50% Lightning Skill damage becomes +125%.

    1-1,668 * 2.25 = 2-3,753 LD
    LD from Facets = 10-740 LD
    Total LD = 12-4493 LD

    Now, your Infinity merc will drop resists by 85%, and your facets will subtract another 50%. So anything with 35% LR or under, will be taking double damage.

    So that's 24-8,986 LD.

    On top of this, you'll be dealing about 700-1,500 physical damage.

    Total Damage:
    724-10,486
    5,605 Average Damage per Kick

    If you adjust for physical resistances (which probably average around 30% in Hell), this goes down to 5.3K per kick, but your standard physical drops all the way to about 1K. Of course, this is with 50% plus CB, not 35%. It may not be pretty, but this will constitute a pretty sizable damage per second.
  2. khuzgan

    khuzgan IncGamers Member

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    Go for it! It might turn out to your liking, and regardless of efficiency, trying new things is always fun.
  3. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    A lightning-based kicker? Clervis, you're dreaming.
  4. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    I must be Dreaming. Dreaming to duel someone. Duel Dreaming. Meh, nevermind.

    Yea, but this should also be pretty damn potent when it comes to Death Sentry as well. I was also thinking that instead of using a Phaseblade, you could use an ethereal Runemaster w/ 5xfacet. That could give you a 183-366 weapon to use with the blade skills, but I really have no experience with those.
  5. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    This still requires an absurd amount of good rolls on small charms though as both the prefix and suffix on the charms have variable rolls.

    Still not sure if a socketed phase blade would be worth sacrificing the static procs on crescent moon.
  6. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    I think it sounds excellent. Go for it. And why don't you add a Thundergod's maybe?
  7. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    I have added T-Gods since. Not because of the 1-50 LD, but mainly because of the impunity to lightning damage.

    I'm not sure what small charms you're talking about.

    I'd be willing to bet that the 6-444 Lightning Damage, plus the improvements to Holy Shock and Death Sentry, would overcome the Chain Lightning/Static Field. The -ELR is nearly the same. Of course, Static Field is hard to compare. So it's up to debate.


    Assuming the armor/infinity merc/30% ELR, the PB's +skill damage gives you an additional 1-1351 to Holy Shock. With the 6-444 straight from the facet, that's 7-1795, much more than most options. Factoring in the -30% ELR the 6-socket PB gives 9-2844 LD (1426 ave), better than a Gimmershred (1398 ave after Infinity).

    Let's look at Rift, though. A Rift does 160-250 Magic Damage, 60-180 Fire Damage, 20% CtC slvl 16 Tornado on Striking, & 16% CtC slvl 21 Frozen Orb on Attack. The fire damage is amplified by Infinity, so that's 93-279 FD. The Tornado does physical damage at 193-211, which hits 20% of the time assuming 35% physical resists. That's 25-27 physical damage on average.

    But the Frozen Orb is the money maker. Slvl 21 FO does 276-291 Cold Damage per bolt. At point blank range, you're usually hitting the enemy 5 times, more if they're larger. See this. On top of that, you're nailing monsters behind them, at a max of about 45 times. But just against one monster, you'll hit 276-291 five times, 16% of the time, at -55% resists. So that's 342-361 on average against one enemy.

    Altogether that's 620-917 (769 ave) against a single target. But, let us not forget that the Kicksin favors one-on-one, it's the crowds that she fears. However, if you fire Frozen Orb into a pack, you can do 45 bolts worth of damage, sometimes more. That's 3358-3804 (3581 ave) per kick, just from the weapon.

    As you can see, Rift against a single target might be a little inferior, but not by much considering a Kicksins chew right through single targets. Against a crowd though, Rift is incredible especially when combined with Death Sentry.
  8. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Ok, I'm fairly new to the Assassin. So I'm just getting to know the mechanics. But, I've had two epiphanies that are changing the way I define my worldview. I apologize for my enthusiasm in advance. I've been playing this game too long to find surprises that often. I also apologize for rambling, because I'm thinking this out as I go and submitting it to you guys so you can catch my misconceptions.

    First, I've come to the realization that +% Lightning Skill Damage and -% Enemy Resistance do not affect Death Sentry (Conviction still does though). This, of course, nullifies the Facet Armor/Weapon's other bonus. They still affect Holy Shock-cum-Dream damage, and significantly, but at a pretty big cost.

    The second realization is that Death Sentry is perhaps the coolest skill in Sanctuary. The fact that it brings Corpse Explosion to the world of melee combat via a summonesque lightning skill is an amazing innovation. Finally, I've found a build that makes a robust and fun Battle Mage--that is, a character that bridges the caster/melee divide. Usually, caster/melee builds make you decide between favoring either spells or weapons, or nerfing your efficacy to force the combo. But Dragon Talon and Death Sentry harmonize perfectly and make a symbiotically potent killer.

    With this in mind, I'm reconsidering Pyro's suggestion of Static Field proc's. I'm thinking Stormlash over Crescent Moon though because of the added CB, socket, and twice the Static CtC. I'll also be assuming for the sake of argument an Infinity merc of some sort, a 3/3/3/3/9 DT speed, average resists around 30% (fire/lightning/physical), one player in the game, and homogeneous non-immune crowds.

    I'm going to break things down into two situations: crowd damaging and one-one-one damaging.

    Crowd Damaging

    When it comes to crowds, you're delivering damage from three key sources: Holy Shock's pulse damage, DS's lightning damage, Static Field, & DS's corpse explosion.

    Holy Shock pulse does 216 ave damage per second to everyone on screen once you account for Conviction and the fact that Pulse actually hits twice every two seconds with Dual Dreams.

    DS's Lightning fully synergized w/ +7 skills does 3-1669 damage every 31 frames at -55% enemy resists. It's hard to quantify, but if you assume it hits 2 targets on average, each will do 2K damage per second, or 10K damage per second among the five. This will be a huge contribution once the Corpse Explosion chain reaction starts. To that end, it's important to lay all 5 traps out before engaging a sizable crowd.

    Static Field proc's 15% on striking. Between high DT attack rating, and Conviction's -83% enemy def, you're usually hitting 95% of the time with a decent clvl. You've got 5 kicks per DT attack, -25% enemy final life from SF, and -55% enemy lightning resist after Conviction (bottoms out at 0% for SF). This means that three proc's (75%>56.25%>50%) will put a crowd at 50% life (SF's cap), and this will happen in 21 kicks on average (that's 4.2 DT's or 83 frames).

    DS's corpse explosion does 40-80% (60% ave) of a monster's normal average base life. This doesn't scale with monster level, unique/super/boss either. The damage is 50% fire and 50% non-blockable physical. This is good because it gets you around most immunities. The fire is boosted by Conviction to do 55% more damage (that's 46.5% monster life). The physical is nerfed by physical resists (that's 19.5% monster life). So the corpse explosion does about 66% of monster life total.

    As you can see, between the two Static Field procs (-50% life) and the corpse explosion (-66% life), everybody is range should die as soon as a corpse explodes. DS corpse explosion, unlike SF, doesn't scale with the players in the game, but all we have to do is get it above 50% of the monster's life, and the crowd should die. Let's see what happens when you increase the players in the game.

    With 2 players, 1 corpse explosion will leave the crowd with 6% life left.
    With 3 players, 1 corpse explosion will leave the crowd with 17% life left.
    With 4 players, 1 corpse explosion will leave the crowd with 23.6% life left.

    Of course, this only takes into account SF and one corpse explosion. If your DS Lightning/HS Pulse/Merc/ShadowWarrior can do 6/17/23.6% damage to another monster, they will create a chain reaction of exploding guts! The second corpse explosion should do the trick.

    With 5 players, 2 corpse explosions will leave the crowd with 6% life left.
    With 6 players, 2 corpse explosions will leave the crowd with 12.3% life left.

    So, with an average crowd in /p5 or /p6, you just have to kill two monsters with DT and everyone should fall to your corpse explosions.

    With 7 players, 3 corpse explosions will leave the crowd with 1% life left.
    With 8 players, 3 corpse explosions will leave the crowd with 6% life left.

    This life left (1%/6%) will likely be overcome by other damage sources by the time you detonate 3 corpses. It worth noting that a slvl 27 DS corpse explosion has a radius of about 12 yards, which is about 3/4 of the screen, so nearly everybody's gonna get hit. Note: these numbers are based on average crowds, not ideal crowds; sometime it will be harder, but sometimes it will be easier.

    Conclusion, between you and your compadres you shouldn't really have to kill more than 3 monsters to have the rest of them keel over, even in an 8 player game.

    One-on-One Damaging

    When it comes to one-on-one damage, you have to strike a balance between integer and fraction damages, much like the crowd damaging. You'll have physical and lightning integer damage , but you'll also have Crushing Blow and SF chopping off percentages of total life. Many Kicksins have massive amounts of CB and can chop down the first 2/3 of a monster's life in a flash, but struggle with the last 1/3 due to lack of integer damage.

    That's why I included the Dreams, they effectively double a Kicksin's integer damage. Integer damage is even more significant because after taking down the first monster and his corpse exploding, all leftover monsters will be in their final 1/3, and CB will be much less effective.

    My gear choice so far looks like this:
    W: Stormlash (Ber)
    H: Dream
    S: Dream
    G: Dracul's Grasp
    B: Upped Goreriders
    B: T-Gods (Maybe)
    A: Mara's/Safety Amulet
    R: Ravenfrost/Mana Leech Ring

    I have yet to decide on the armor. I'm partial to an Upped Guardian Angel because it supplies great max resists, CTB which can save you almost 100 dexterity on max block, FBR, and high defense. Fort is good for defenses, but only improves damage by about 350 per hit (~16%). Duress is also decent. This is starting to sound familiar. But, anyhoo...

    Fractional Damage:
    SF: -25% every 6th hit (up to 50%)
    CB: -25% every 2/3 hit (68CB)/-12.5% on champs, etc.

    Integer Damage:

    Physical: 810 ave
    Lightning: 1,660 ave
    Poison: 179 ave (equivalent)
    Total: 2,649 average damage

    As you can see, the bulk of the damage comes from Lightning (Dreams/Stormlash). It's also worth noting that high elemental damage charms can be a significant addition since you're delivering really fast low damage attacks. The fractional damage is decent at 68 CB. This still retains the Kicksin reputation as being a mean boss-killer. For comparison, a pure physical Dragon Talon approach maxes at about 1.5K ave kick damage, but with up to 100 CB.



    What do you guys think? Again, sorry about the long-windedness.
  9. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    Sorry, was pulling in the idea from the other thread.

    In terms of CM vs. stormlash, stormlash is obviously much faster, has better proc rates, and high Crushing blow, pretty much an all around win. Cresent mooon however does have the -elr that would be lost but probably isn't worth it in comparison.

    I'm way to lazy to check it myself, but I'm assuming that burst of speed + the ias on stormlash is what is getting you to the 3/9 attack rate? If you were planning on using fade, you could always consider the cheap but effective use of treachery for +skills, and venom/fade procs.
  10. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Oh, right. Yea, I'm still thinking that elemental charms could be a big benefit. Obviously, that other thread was completely idealized, but you could still do some palpable damage. I'd want to probably stay away from Poison because even with Venom (10 frame duration), it's not going to compare with something delivered every hit. Cold is also a bad idea because it can shatter corpses. Fire is ideal even though the average damage is less than lightning, because it gives you that third damage prong.

    The cool thing is the build, as I have it right now, gets well over 90% resist all with average rolls and also has decent life. So my inventory is open to whatever. It's easy to fit in a solid 23 small charms with fire/lightning damage. A Flaming/Shocking SC of Incineration/Storms with average rolls will do about 38 damage per hit. With Conviction, that's about 58.5 damage per hit. Times 23, that's 1,346 average damage. That's about a 54.5% increase in integer damage. Huge! The theoretical maximum is 74% increase in damage (pure lightning). Compare that to a Zealot who uses 23 slots for +x max dam (6x+10GC,5x+3SC=+75max=+37.5ave). He's probably only going to boost damage by about 9% considering Grief PB does 403 on ave. But, the alternative is charms of Vita, which could bump your health up by about 1/3. Haven't decided, yet. I guess the ideal would be Incinerating/Shocking SC's of Vita (19.5 FD/29.25LD, 16-20Life). That's a 28-42% increase.

    Yea, my previous iteration used burst of speed, but Stormlash on it's own let's you hit 3/9. With a Shael it's 3/8. With the Shael and Treachery, you'd hit 3/7. The difference between 3/9 and 3/7 is only about 10%, so it's not a tremendous priority. So, I went with Fade and a Ber (20 CB) instead. Treachery is pretty sweet, for many damn good reasons, but the lack defense and +max resists means you have to be a little more cautious. I prefer throwing myself into hell and rampaging through. So it's a preference/play-style thing. Plus, a full 30 points into Fade gives you 45% DR, with Dungo's, and the +20% CTB from GA represents a huge life bump (+482 life, bmc).

    My skills are starting to look like this:
    17 Dragon Talon (24 w/gear)
    20 Fade (30 w/switch)
    18 Fire Blast (28 w/switch)
    20 Lightning Sentry
    20 Death Sentry (27 w/gear)
    1 point wonders (4): Dragon Flight, Venom (11), Cloak of Shadows (11), Shadow Master (11)
    Prereq's: 7

    This finishes at clvl 97 (92 if you drop SM/CoS). I've been considering dropping the SM/SW. Even with a decent skill investment SW dies a lot and SM doesn't do any much damage. This Kicksin is built to be a tank anyway--as is Fazil--so I don't need a third tank. I find CoS to be somewhat annoying, too. Fire Blast is also a sweet way to deal with Phys/Light immunes, but having your DS last twice as long is of tremendous help in high player games. I may be ruining the whole idea of a sneaky assassin, but I'm okay with my sacrilege.

    Some stats:
    3K life
    10K Def
    45% DR
    90%@ Res
    68 CB

    Update: I've decided to ditch my Ravenfrost and my Merc's Vampire Gaze so that there will be zero cold damage dealt. Now corpse aren't shattering and my corpse explosions are noticeably more regular. I swapped out my -15% reqs jewel from the upped GA for a Cham. Of course this upps the strength req by 29, but you get the benefits of a nice rare ring (more ml, stats, life, resists) and more physical damage. Now I can also use a Ward Dream shield with higher CTB, and a Corona.

    Another update: I since come to appreciate two skills and lose all respect for two others.

    Mind blast is generally a bad skill. It converts over members of a crowd so you have less guts to explode at everybody. For this reason Shadow Master is more troublesome than good. But it can be of some use in a dire situation. Truth be told I've only had to use it on /p8 Lister pack. It can also be a useful way to keep Fazil going though I generally prefer summoning him with dragon flight.

    Cloak of Shadows is also generally obnoxious but can be of use. I usually prefer to have everyone come crowd around for the ensuing slaughter but if ranged attackers are really getting to Fazil--they usually don't bother the Sin--it can be a good way to get them off his back.

    Fire Blast at slvl 28 seems to be a slower killer against dual immunes than just relying on fire damage a la charms and corpse explosions. It's still a great synergy but sucks against any formidable enemy.

    Venom is a waste. I don't know why people like it. At slvl 30 it gives you 735 damage every .4 seconds. That's 1837.5 damage per second, roughly 1286 dps after resists. Considering a kicker does 5.95 kicks per second at 3/9 and has Conviction, this is the equivalent of about 139 more elemental damage per kick, or just 4 of the aforementioned charms. So anything more than a one point investment seems to be a waste.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  11. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    Two things you may also have wrong:

    First, using two Dreams doesn't make the pulse happen twice per second. The two auras stack into a single one, delivering the usual number of pulses.

    Second, Conviction doesn't affect poison resist, making Venom even less appealing.

    In my opinion, Kicksins have enough damage sources that make dual-dreams a waste, and here's why:

    You will have terrible resists without using a LOT of resist gear everywhere else.

    99% of the time, a Kicksin will typically use a Stormshield. Aside from the massive resist potential by putting an Um in such a beastly shield, you are also missing out on a whopping 35% DR.

    With dual-Dreams, if I remember correctly, you will add a maximum of around 2.4k damage to your kicks after the double-application. Which is great considering the typically low damage of Kicks in the first place. But then again, there are better and safer ways to deliver multiple sources of damage.

    The main thing to consider is comparing it to using Rift. While the Dream setup DOES give you a significant boost to your main attack, keep in mind that your main attack is only striking one opponent at a time. Considering that with a Conviction-wielding merc, you already have great damage potential with Corpse Explosion and possibly Frozen Orb, already Dream seems like an over-hyped glass-cannon build that leaves you too weak to survive long enough to target enough creatures to make the damage seem worth it.

    In my opinion, anyways. Do as you wish, it may surprise you.

    However, if doing more damage overall is your goal, I would consider instead a Rift + Nightwing's + Ormus setup instead. You will get an additional 30% or so damage to your Frozen Orb which should take it to just over 400 damage per bolt. More if you facet the Wing, Robe, and potentially your shield (though I feel an Um in a Stormshield is a better bet and not worth another +5%/-5%.)

    With that setup, you have a lvl 21 Frozen Orb that is essentially fully synergized as a Sorc would by maxing Ice Bolt. Throw on some Gore's for a bit of CB and you have a Sin that deals decent Physical damage with a bit of Crushing Blow, HUGE crowd-controlling Cold Damage, HUGE crowd-controlling Physical damage AND Fire damage enhanced by Conviction.

    Also, with that setup, you wouldn't need to max Fade at all. Stormshield + lvl 1 Fade with some item-based skill levels, a Torch/Anni if applicable and charms should cover everything you need. That would give you the option to max Venom after all (which, don't forget, ALSO gets applied twice) for an extra thousand or so damage per second.

    Counting the little bit of lightning damage from traps, this gives you 100% spectral hit as you will deal all six types of damage, the main ones being Fire, Cold and Physical with Poison and Lightning to help. Magic is technically there, but negligibly so.

    From my experiences, Dreams are ALMOST only worth it on Paladins and Sorceresses. However, if you have enough charms and other gear to cover the huge DR% and resist loss by using Dreams instead of Stormshield and Kira's/Crown of Ages/Etc and it is fun for you, DO IT.
  12. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Thanks Psycho, just what I was looking for.

    I was under the impression that by wearing two pieces of pulse damage gear that it actually applies the slvl 30 damage twice every 2 seconds. Can someone confirm or deny this?

    I actually did factor that in there.

    On resists I'm actually looking pretty darn good. Dreams give you +5-20 each, Mara's +20-30, Anni/Torch +40-80, and Fade gives me +69. Fade also gives me 30% DR and 15% DR comes from Dungo's, so I'm just shy of the cap.

    Yea, 2.4Kish. I'm not sure what double-application you're referring too. +% Lightning Skill would count twice, but I dropped all of that gear. What other sources of damage do you mean? As far as off-weapon, I can't find anything that compares accept a ton of elemental damage charms.

    I actually did end up getting surprised. I originally thought the 6 socket PB with Dreams would amp up the damage. It did. But then I started messing with Rift and saw the damage it could unleash on a crowd (769-3581 ave!). But then Pyro turned me on to Stormlash. Stormlash harmonizes with Corpse Explosion perfectly. In a four or less player game, you're pretty much guaranteed to take down an entire pack after killing just one baddy because they're all at half life. It's hard to compare Rift with Stormlash, but in practice Stormlash seems to be so much more potent. The CB, IAS, and LD are great bonuses. In addition, Stormlash gives you corpse galore. Rift shatters a lot of them.

    Secondly, I think you're underestimating her ruggedness. The Dreams are actually decent pieces of defensive gear as well (CtC Confuse, Def, Resists, & Life). The Guardian Angel really pulls it all together, but the stats speak for themselves:
    45% PDR
    90% Resist All
    10K Def
    3K Life
    75% Block
    70% FHR (5 frame)
    30% FBR (4 frame)
    Really quickly spawning Life Tap.
    CtC Confuse for crowd control

    That kind of defense isn't matched by many characters at all.

    That's an interesting set-up. I might try that out. Another alternative might be a Jeweler's Armor of Whatever over Ormus's Robes, if you can afford some nice Facets.

    What do you mean it gets applied twice?

    Word. Thanks for your comments.
  13. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    My mistake, I was thinking of the mastery at the time. I have blood in my THC system.

    If it does apply two pulses, then it must do them at the same time because I have never noticed a more-often-than-usual amount of pulses coming from two Dreams.

    I am actually surprised at your resist setup as well. Certainly charms are pulling some weight?

    However, I HAVE found a SEVERE hole in your kill strategy...

    Mara's...

    Dracul's...

    Fade...

    You have such little speed. I am sure you are hitting a fairly decent breakpoint with your kicks. But literally ALL of your speed is based on the speed of Stormlash.

    In my opinion, Crescent Moon in a phase blade would outperform Stormlash by a mile. While you are losing some CB, you retain the Static Field (in fact, you get a wider radius) and get a much better boost to the Lightning Damage. I find this more important mainly when it comes to facing down monsters that have had their lightning immunity broken. They will still have a hefty lightning resist even with a bunch of facets. The extra -35% resist will really help your damage versus that fairly common situation. With Gore's, you retain a still-decent amount of CB.

    But I really can't get off the speed issue here. You should be a good two or more breakpoints behind on your kick speed, which when it comes to a lot, a little, or any sort of damage, is possibly the most important factor.

    That is a good point regarding the shattering corpses. But I found that so long as you have a corpse here and there, especially with Conviction nearby, you only need a small chunk of them anyways.

    With Venom, again I was thinking of mastery damage. You'd have to be wearing facets, Death's Web or the like for that to be a thing. Again, I had to quit my love leaf so things are frazzled ha ha.

    Like I said, if it sounds fun and you stay alive, go for it. I just feel the speed could be a big issue, and you would have better crowd control with a Rift. Other than that, this does appear to be a clear winner regarding killing bosses. I would be interested to see how it performs in Uber Tristram.

    I am also dying to know how you got your defense that high...
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  14. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    The speed actually is just fine. It's 3/9. That's 3/3/3/3/9 frames for a total of 21 frames per 5 kicks. If I were to max it out with BoS, or slap on 65 IAS, I'd hit 3/7, but that's 19 frames per 5 kicks. That's just 10% faster. I considered doing this, but the defensive benefits of Fade much outweigh 10% more hits.

    Crescent Moon offers a marginally higher level SF, but at less than half the proc rate. That's what's important. The -35% ELR is a good mod. But Stormlash has CB, LD, and a socket (20 more CB). I find that getting the SF to hit a couple of times before the first monsters dies has a dramatic improvement on the corpse exploding ridiculousness.

    On a side note, it seems that Kicksins are already setup to ravage Ubers. TweedleD and TweedleB are easy enough, and require no adjustments. The only thing you'd have to do is stack up some resists for TweedleM. The Dreams can go since he's immune to Lightning anyway. Slap on a Um'd Kira's and Sanctuary and you should be golden.

    If you wanted a little more. A few cheapo's that could help:
    2xUpped GoblinToe (10 more CB)
    2xSteel GC's (~250 AR)
    Demonlimb Prebuff (218% AR)

    All that seems to cost a pittance compared to crazy options like LW. Just keep DT on left click and MB on right click and do your worst. If Fazil kicks it, you'll be fine. With 68-78 CB & SF, you'll chew him down right quick. Once he's dead you can go after the other two with either gear setup.

    Edit: I'm starting to be really surprised at how much nay-saying I've seen past & present to the whole Dual Dream Kick idea and from very reputable types, too (and a thank you to those encouraging). But it just seems to make an incredible amount of sense to me. Low, fast attacks benefit from elemental damage. Dreams effectively double+ your DT damage. CB is great, but at the low end you need something to finish them off. I calculated an example. When I've kicked a monster 20 times (3.3 secs, ~60K life monster), SF has done about 11.7K damage, CB has done about 12.6K damage, Boots have done about 11.7K damage, and my Dreams have done about 24.6K damage!
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  15. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    It sounds like a pretty decent idea in that case. Forget my naysaying. Indeed, go for it!

    While the speed of the kicks is what really makes this damage output shine, I am curious as to what other builds may benefit from the dual-Dream setup since Paladins and Sorceresses have pretty much dominated the market. Fury Druid? Lightning Javazon?

    Hell, a Whirlwind Barbarian?

    O_O
  16. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Well, of course, conventional knowledge was that Dreams were only good for Paladins and Sorcs for their synergies/masteries. It works for the kicksin because she has an attack that focuses on speed almost entirely rather than how hard she can hit. In fact, it more the case that she just can't get significant damage from anything else. Amplifying her damage with Might, Concentrate, Fort, & Phoenix tops out at about 1.5K damage.....lame. That's because her boots are comparable to using a Lightsabre without the elemental damage.

    As far as other builds using it, I'm not sure. They'd have to do lots of small damage. A strafezon comes to mind, but then....Throwers w/pierce maybe, but they're generally underpowered builds in general.
  17. khuzgan

    khuzgan IncGamers Member

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    As far as very powerful builds go, you're probably right in beeing limited to melee sorcs, paladins and the occasional kicker, as most other powerful ones have far better options. If you can afford it though, dual dreams could be very useful on a wide range of novelty builds where the extra lightning damage helps out handling imunes to your main type of damage or opens other gear options.
  18. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    No nay-saying from this corner. Make it happen, it sounds like it would work, you put it through all the calculations, so why not right? I would do it myself but Jah runes just don't come around that often in HC SP. Its on my list of things to make though!
  19. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    I agree entirely, dreams could open up options for these niche builds. Another such option that seems to have mostly died off since 1.09 is the benefit of elemental damage charms. Individually they seem puny, and even an inventory of them won't revolutionize your build, but they can singlehandedly cover a vulnerability if you're character is limited in types or amount of damage. Furthermore, the search for these charms brings an indefiniteness to your endgame. I'm in the process of rolling small charms for the flaming/shocking prefix and each one makes my build a little more potent.
  20. Clervis

    Clervis IncGamers Member

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    Alright, I started my Kicksin. I've got some lofty goals. I want to achieve the following:

    2.5K life
    500 average fire damage (charms)
    800 average phys damage
    68 CB
    3/3/3/9 attack rate
    10K Defense
    75% block
    45% PDR
    90% resist all
    4-frame block
    5-frame hit recovery

    How?

    Stats:
    196 Str
    ~220 Dex
    ~400 Vit

    Skills (106 total):
    18 DTalon
    18 Fire Blast
    20 Lightning Sentry
    20 Death Sentry
    20 Fade
    1 DFlight
    1 Cloak of Shadows
    1 Mind Blast
    7 Pre-reqs

    Equipment:
    Stormlash
    Upped Guardian Angel (Cham)
    Dream Corona
    Dream Ward
    Dracul's Grasp
    Verdungo's
    Upped Gore Riders
    2xMana Leech Rare Rings
    Anni/Torch
    23 Flaming Small Charms
    CtA/Spirit Switch

    Merc:
    Infinity
    Eth Upped GA (Um)
    Eth Upped Vamp Gaze (Um)

    That's the plan anyway. The tricky part will be acquiring those Flaming small charms. The plan is to get 500 fire damage. That can be done in 16 small charms on average. But it'll take a lot of Baal charm rolling.

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