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DoT and Pet Scaling

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 Community Forum' started by Neinball, Nov 14, 2011. | Replies: 105 | Views: 21084

  1. Neinball

    Neinball <a href="payments.php">IncGamers Site Pal</a> and<

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    DoT and Pet Scaling

    First off, all thanks go to Valkemen and his friend Astehnir for testing out this info.

    Over on the monk boards the community was compiling info on the undocumented patch changes and we came across something weird. The DoT component of Exploding Palm was showing different figures then the talent calculator as well as different figures for different people. Upon some testing done by Valkemen and Astehnir they found that the DoT was scaling with weapon speed, the faster the weapon the more damage the DoT did.

    Testing has found that the formula is relatively simple:

    Weapon Dmg % x Weapon APS* = Actual Damage.

    *Dual wielding gives the main hand weapon a bonus of 15% APS.

    Example:

    The Exploding Palm DoT does a base 65% weapon dmg per second, if a monk is using a 1.2 APS weapon the DoT will now deal 78% (65 x 1.2=78) wpn dmg per second. A dual wielding monk with a 1.2 APS main hand weapon will deal 89.7% (65 x (1.2 x 1.15)=89.7) wpn dmg per second.

    After this was discovered for the Monks we decided to test out the only other class with a DoT within the beta, the WD and some strange things were discovered.

    As excepted Firebats scales it's damage in the same exact way, it was 100% wpn dmg x APS = actual dmg per second. Surprisingly, the DoT component of Poison Dart did not scale at all with APS. Not being satisified with such a small sampling of abilities Valkeman and Astehnir decided to load up an emulator and check other abilities that may have scaled in a similar fashion.

    They found the following abilities all scale their damage on APS in the same exact way:

    Acid Cloud
    Locust Swarm
    Haunt
    Grasp of the dead
    Gargantuan
    Fetish army

    With this it would seem that certain pets also scale their damage on the APS of the caster. There are many other abilities/pets/summons from other classes that need to be tested out either in an emulator or the beta (Call of the Ancients, Companion, Sentry, etc) and many, many rune effects that will need to be tested once the game goes live.

    Also not being in the beta I can't test it but would like to know if anyone has any experience with DoTs critting.

    Summary:

    DoT and Pet Damage Formula:

    Single Weapon (1h or 2h)
    Base Weapon Damage % x Weapon APS = Final Damage Total

    Dual Wielding
    Base Weapon Damage % x (Main Hand Weapon APS x 1.15) = Final Damage Total
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  2. Grayson Carlyle

    Grayson Carlyle IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Might this apply to all attacks with a static attack rate? Channeled DoTs as well; Disintegrate, Ray of Frost, etc...?
  3. Neinball

    Neinball <a href="payments.php">IncGamers Site Pal</a> and<

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    I'd be willing to say yes given how it interacts with Firebats. I don't have a beta account so I can't say for certain.
  4. Astehnir

    Astehnir IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Maybe I'll throw up some numbers for you to do the math. ;]

    WIZARD

    Disintegrate
    APS DPS
    1,02 138%
    1,30 176%
    1,39 188%
    1,44 195%
    1,50 203%

    Explosive Blast
    APS Damage
    1,02 168%
    1,30 214%
    1,39 230%
    1,44 238%
    1,50 247%

    Ray of Frost
    APS DPS
    1,02 275%
    1,30 351%
    1,39 376%
    1,44 389%
    1,50 405%

    Arcane Torrent
    APS DPS
    1,02 204%
    1,30 260%
    1,39 278%
    1,44 288%
    1,50 300%

    Ice Armor (!)
    APS WD reflect/hit
    1,02 10%
    1,30 13%
    1,39 14%
    1,44 14%
    1,50 15%

    Familiar
    APS Damage
    1,02 15%
    1,30 20%
    1,39 21%
    1,44 22%
    1,50 22%
    1,53 23%


    DEMON HUNTER

    Rain of Vengeance
    APS DPS
    1,34 178%
    1,40 186%
    1,43 190%
    1,60 213%
    1,84 245%

    Companion
    APS Damage
    1,34 40%
    1,40 42%
    1,43 43%
    1,60 48%
    1,84 55%

    All precentages here are the precentage of your weapon damage. Barbarian doesn't have any skills that scale with APS, Demon Hunter has only two. I'll leave the values of each monk skill to Valkemen, as it's his "guinea pig" to test on. :>

    Cya around.
  5. Valkemen

    Valkemen IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Two monk's skills work with APS - Exploding Palm and Lethal Decoy

    numbers for Lethal Decoy

    no wpn = 1 APS = 110%
    1h wpn 1,40 APS = 154%
    dual wpn 1,40 APS +15% bonus = 1,6 APS = 177%
  6. snurrfint

    snurrfint IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    To sum it up then.

    DMG of DOTs, channeling and cool-down skills (Basically all skills where attack speed normally doesn't help you.) are calculated based on Weapon DPS.

    DMG of skills without cool-down are calculated based on weapon dmg. Attacks speed based on weapon APS.

    This is pretty good but they should change the skill tool-tips. Instead of "140% weapon dmg per second" use "140% weapon DPS per second". Although, that sounds pretty ridiculous.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  7. cacophony

    cacophony IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Finally, continuous scaling for DoTs. Makes things a lot easier to theorycraft. Just need to figure out the crit mechanics.

    Also, I'm assuming only Barbs and Monks can dual wield melee weapons, and Hunters can dual wield small crossbows? And if you're worrying about DoTs and Monks, which weapon does the DoT damage? Do you alternate hands like other skills? Exploding Palm A on Monster A uses right hand weapon for DoTs, and Exploding Palm B on Monster B uses the left hand weapon for DoTs?
  8. snurrfint

    snurrfint IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    As I said before. DOT dmg is calculated using your basic attack DPS. This is presented to you nicely in the character screen in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHorZSXg4QU

    If your DOT do 75% weapon dmg per second, you simply multiply 433 (in this case) with 0.75 and get 324 dmg/second. And thats all you'll have to know. If you want to see if dual-wielding will increase DoT dmg, simply equip an offhand weapon and check the basic attack DPS value.

    I don't think the OP is right when he say that dual wielding increase the main weapon APS by 15%. I think your APS is a combined value of both weapons. That atleast, makes more sence to me.


  9. Neinball

    Neinball <a href="payments.php">IncGamers Site Pal</a> and<

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    The math is what supports this, when you dual wield the number listed in the skill window will always have that 15% bonus.

    It's something that can be checked with multitude of different weapon speeds equipped to each hand though. I'll see about getting it tested.

    I think you're right on about it being the % of dps of the weapon, we just don't know if either the dps listing or the skill takes into account elemental effects on the weapons/gear or how it handles the damage calculations with dual wielding. It's things like that I would love to test for hours on end if I could.


  10. Astehnir

    Astehnir IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Done that already. Tested 8 times on different weapons, and the outcome was always the same. Equipping an offhand weapon increases attack speed by 15%.

    Anyone want more numbers, just to prove it? :>


  11. snurrfint

    snurrfint IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    I'm still not entirely convinced to be honest.

    What you guys said was that your main hand attack speed gets increased by 15% when dual-wielding. Fine, that may be true. But, it would make more sense if dual-wielding just increased your over-all attack speed by 15%.

    "The Exploding Palm DoT does a base 65% weapon dmg per second, if a monk is using a 1.2 APS weapon the DoT will now deal 78% (65 x 1.2=78) wpn dmg per second. A dual wielding monk with a 1.2 APS main hand weapon will deal 89.7% (65 x (1.2 x 1.15)=89.7) wpn dmg per second."

    What you suggest is that a 14.5 dps main hand weapon together with a 2.5 dps weapon in off-hand would produce the same dps as a 14.5 dps off-hand. That could be true, if the DoT dmg is only based on the main hand dmg, but to me, it sounds like a really crappy design.

    What would make more sense is that the dot dps is based on an average dps from both weapons multiplied with 1.15 for dual-wield attack speed bonus.

    I'm not trying to disprove you, but are you really sure that you are correct?


    Last edited: Nov 17, 2011
  12. Grayson Carlyle

    Grayson Carlyle IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    For Barbarian (and probably Monk) non-DoT attacks, the skill uses the weapon damage of the last weapon you swung with. So if you swing with a 40 DPS 1H then swing with a 2 DPS 1H, then use HotA, you'll do a whopping 3-4 damage to each enemy you hit. It's terrible design and makes no sense at all, but that's how it is. So I wouldn't be surprised if they screwed up DW DoT and pet damage too. I'd go confirm if I had beta, but my point is, there's no reason to be surprised if things don't make sense in D3 right now. :/
  13. Astehnir

    Astehnir IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Just tested it. I used a 3dps (1,20aps) mainhand weapon and a 17,5dps (1,47aps) offhand weapon. The DoT of the exploding palm did 2dmg/tick, when the last strike was done by the mainhand weapon, and 14dmg/tick for the offhand.

    Fortunately both classes (wizard, witch doctor), that have most skills, that synergise with aps, cannot dualwield weapons, so you won't wonder, if the ray of frost is ticking your main or offhand weapon. ;]
  14. snurrfint

    snurrfint IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Well then. That's pretty disappointing. I guess that most one-handers have similar dps. So this is pretty much only a problem for characters with two very different quality weapons, but still. You don't really want to waste your fury or spirit with the lower quality weapon. To avoid this, you'll have to count every attack.

    meh.


  15. Astehnir

    Astehnir IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    There hasn't been a situation in which my weapons had some big quality differences. Often it was like 2-5dps or 0,2aps more on the better one. That is until i got my blacksmith. After that i had the best weapons available in beta for both hands. For the barbarian that is ;>
  16. cacophony

    cacophony IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    That's fine for a "fast" skill like Exploding Palm. I actually like that approach.

    What happens when we get to Earthquake, Call of the Ancients, or other big cooldown skills? What about Seven Sided Strike? Does each individual strike alternate hands? What about Hunters and the big cooldown on Rain of Vengeance? What about runed Conviction Aura, which makes it a constant damage aura? Which weapon is ticking each second, or does it alternate hands each second?


  17. Astehnir

    Astehnir IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Well most of those skills that you mentioned aren't available in the beta, so we can just guess and wonder. The rain of vengeance skill probably works on the same principle as exploding palm, so the damage of the skill is different on mainhand weapon strike and the offhand. However like I said, it's pretty hard to have two weapons with big dmg difference. At least I had no problem with that.
  18. cacophony

    cacophony IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Rain of Vengeance has a 30 second cooldown. Also, I'm starting to worry not about the pure numbers (b/c like you said, most people will dual wield two weapons close in damage/DPS to each other, considering there's no Main Hand/Off Hand mechanic, thus far). I'm going to worry about enchantments. One weapon is cold enchanted, and slows enemies. The other is poison enchanted, and adds poison DoT. When you let loose w/ Rain of Vengeance, what the hell is going on? Or Earthquake? I know most wizard/doctor spells don't transfer the utility properties of elemental enchantments (but do transfer the damage boost), but what about weapon skills like Rapid Fire, Rain of Vengeance, Seven Sided Strike, Ancient Spear, etc?


  19. Soval

    Soval IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    Snurrfint
    The solution then is to not use such an inferior weapon when you are trying to dual wield.

    If you make the bad decision to use such a poor piece of gear, you have no one to blame but yourself, it is not the fault of the game that you made that terrible choice. It's not reasonable to complain because you did something yourself that put you at a disadvantage because of your own poor judgement.

    In other words, you will only have to count your attacks when you sabotage yourself into that crappy scenario, it's not any kind of inherent flaw in the games's design.
  20. Grayson Carlyle

    Grayson Carlyle IncGamers Member

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    Re: DoT and Pet Scaling

    You're making the assumption that you have access to an equally good OH.

    What if an incredibly powerful 1H just dropped for you, something that would go for $600-800 on the RMAH, but that's not your thing but you want to use it. Your only other 1H is 80% of the DPS of this amazing weapon. The only way you can use your new weapon and not have it be a DPS loss if you go 1H + Shield. That's bad game design.



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