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Dodge and Block Mechanics

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Risingred, Jan 3, 2012. | Replies: 23 | Views: 3849

  1. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Dodge and Block Mechanics

    I've attached a video below showing everything that I've said here.
    It's worth noting that the monk in this video has a passive that allows a native 10% dodge when dual-wielding.

    Dodge:

    You can dodge:
    Melee Attacks
    Ranged Attacks
    Ranged Spells
    Ground-based AoE


    You cannot dodge:
    Status effects (but you can dodge damage related to status effects)


    There also appears to be a hard cap on dodge (around 50%).


    Overall, it appears that any source of damage can be dodged, making it rather ridiculous.

    The cap could be explained through a bug, but it cannot be explained through diminishing returns. The 10% buff you get from the passive is always 10%, and dodge appears to only work on a percentage basis, not on a rating system.
    If it isn't a bug, and there's a 50% cap, it may make mantra of evasion fairly useless depending on items and passives.



    Blocking:

    I don't yet have a video for blocking, but block appears to work on a similar set of mechanics where anything that causes damage can be blocked, but status effects cannot be avoided through these two mechanics.
    Blocks cannot be critical. You cannot critically block for more damage than what was listed. That may sound obvious and ridiculous, but in other Blizzard games (WoW), you can critically block under an almost identical system.

    It isn't nearly as easy to get the numbers for blocking that you can for dodging in the beta due to mantra of evasion, making this one much more tedious to research. I am working on it, though.

    If you didn't know, block has multiple components to it.
    You have a percentage chance to block a blow, and then a block amount. So you can have a 10% chance to block 5-10 damage, as an example, giving a range on the mitigation, unlike dodge which is complete and total mitigation.

    This appears to make blocking almost completely worthless when compared to dodge, but it is assumed then that you won't be able to achieve a high % of dodge with the same uptime (uptime meaning procs or spell activations) that you would block.
  2. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Hold your horses there. If they use similar mechanics to WoW then it's possible that block and dodge are both on the same roll table not overlapping with each other. Also it's bit early to deem blocking worthless yet when we can't tell what level of mitigation one can reach endgame and also at least i don't know whenever % mitigation is calculated before the block which is flat mitigation.

    Would be interesting to see some data sets with a moderate chance for both blocking and dodging. It should be pretty easy to determine the roll table mechanics from that.
  3. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Dodge: 100% mitigation.
    Block: a set value.


    That either makes no sense or I'm not reading it right.
    It wouldn't matter when the block amount is calculated because it's a set amount. It's a small range of value, like 5-10.
    Dodge is in a percentage to "proc" and it doesn't matter as well for endgame because it's complete mitigation.

    I could stack them on a monk in the beta, but without a third-party program, I don't know what makes you think it'd be easy to determine.


  4. DexA

    DexA IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    EDIT: sorry, watched the video after asking and it explained my question.
  5. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Was really, really hoping Dodge wouldn't work on AoE attacks. It's basically a second Defense stat for monks this way.
  6. cacophony

    cacophony IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Yep. I guess it was too tough to parse damage types based on how many enemies it hits. The DoTs are very strange, though. You get poisoned, and the first two ticks hurt, but you "dodge" the third one? What?


  7. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Can you make that comparison between dodge and Block though Rising? Because from what I understand, blocking is a unique shield stat and is not an Affix. So you can't really say "Block is worthless compared to dodge", because block and dodge don't compete with each other for stat budget.

    Shields simply provide an additional unique layer of mitigation (block) that can't be found without equipping a shield. Hence why you can't really say that block sucks compared to dodge.
  8. Scorch Hellfire

    Scorch Hellfire IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Geez... At first when I read your post I was annoyed at the idea of them hard-capping Dodge but after watching the video, maybe it's a good idea... although, yeah it does make stacking Dodge pointless... Also kind of makes Sixth Sense worthless...
  9. Threepwood

    Threepwood IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    What Karpalo means is that in WoW, stacking a single type of avoidance suffers diminishing returns, but different sources of avoidance are directly additive. The percentage chance of each avoidance type fills up the "hit table" in sequence, and can make it possible to never take a normal or critical hit. I don't know if this is how it works in D3, of course.


  10. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    If Block and Dodge are determined off the same to/hit table, then dodge will always be more valuable than block unless the amount blocked is => the damage, in which case they'd be even.

    I didn't see any enchants for dodge or block...shields have modifiers for % to block, and amount blocked, but without being able to affect the amount blocked, dodge is definitely a better avoidance stat.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  11. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Unless I am missing something, Block is not an affix, it is a unique and singular shield property and what I wrote above applies. If that is correct, than this whole comparison issue is totally irrelevant...

    Unless I am mistaken?


  12. Threepwood

    Threepwood IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    As far as the dodge shown on your character sheet, that's definitely true, but stacking dodge suffers diminishing returns. Every new source of dodge is applied only to your remaining chance to be hit. So multiple sources stack like so:
    Chance to dodge = 1-[(1-chance1)*(1-chance2)*(1-chance3)...(1-chanceN)]
    to pull numbers from the video as an example:

    With just Guardian's Path:
    Chance to dodge = 1-[(1-.1)] = 10%
    (1% dodge from the tooltip becomes 1% dodge)

    Add Mantra of Evasion:
    Chance to dodge = 1-[(1-.1)*(1-.25)] = 32.5%
    (1% dodge from the tooltip becomes 0.9% dodge)

    Add Mantra of Evasion short-term buff:
    Chance to dodge = 1-[(1-.1)*(1-.25)*(1-.25)] = 49.4%
    (1% dodge from the tooltip becomes .676% dodge)

    At some point, getting a bit of block is going to become more valuable than trying to stack more dodge, even before the block is resulting in full avoidance.


  13. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    You're right, but I was perusing the gear and enchants...is there any other way to add dodge or block values anyway? I didn't see any in the enchants, and I am assuming block will only be on shields, so the point may be moot.



  14. Threepwood

    Threepwood IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    I have no idea. :scratchchin:

    I don't even know how dodge and block will stack together. Unfortunately, that's probably the kind of thing you have to test by recording the results of thousands of enemy swings.


  15. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Well technically dodge isn't diminished with that formula. Armor in most similar style games follows the same logic and from effective health point of view every point gives same bang for the buck.

    Naturally avoidance is harder or even technically impossible to account for when determining EH, but if instead of dodge you name the stat "X% chance to avoid the remaining incoming damage" it get's much clearer. with 50% dodge you should avoid half of the incoming damage and live twice as long and by adding another 50% dodge you should live twice as long again.

    It's not additive stat, but not really diminished either.
  16. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Well, yeah, because when you put them side-by-side...

    Say that you have two items: a shield that provides plus block % and a pretty good number. But say that you also have an off-hand (an orb or something) that provides 2% dodge. You'd be a fool not to go with dodge.

    Block is, basically, a dodge that doesn't completely mitigate damage, but has a higher uptime. I'd stack the total mitigation before partial in any event. Well, assuming that you can cap dodge (if it is hard-capped). The fact that block is indeed a unique shield stat makes it even more worthless, if that's truly the case. Even looking at the passives, if you're going to play a defensive character, you're probably going to want dodge much more than block.



    There's a reason why I was loathe to mention WoW, and it's because the systems, while similar, have drastically different functions. You want to stack parry, block, and dodge in WoW (as a warrior, at least) because you have to. But there's threat to consider, and also the IAS from a mob boss when it's parried.

    D3 doesn't have any of those "under-the-hood" functions. You don't have to have dodge or block if you want, and still "tank". You can stack both. It isn't necessary (at least, looking at datamined affix/suffix numbers, and from a critical evaluation of my knowledge of the game--I may very well be wrong).

    Yar...I'm curious to see what the hit rolls are like, but without a third-party DPS-style meter, I don't know how to do it.

    I'm still working on the blocking research. Maybe I'm missing something.


  17. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Exactly. If anyone can think of a way, I'd be game to try. Until the next semester starts, at least.

    Also I forgot this note:

    Notice on the monk's cscreen, it must be lying, or else there's some system of either diminishing returns or rounding off.

    I have the 10% DW passive, and when I activate the mantra, I should get an extra 50%. I don't. I get, total, 49.4% I believe it was.
    However, when the initial "burst" of dodge wears off, I'm still supposed to get 25% dodge. It doesn't work like that.

    maybe it's a bug? I'll report it tomorrow.

    edit: derp finished reading the rest of the replies, and it does look like diminishing returns, but I would still like confirmation on this.


  18. Piousflea

    Piousflea IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Dodge stacks multiplicatively. This has been shown multiple times since early Beta.

    That means that 10% dodge + 50% dodge should = 1-(0.9*0.5) = 55% dodge. However, the Mantra doesn't work that way.

    The mantra "burst" appears to stack 10% + 25% + 25% which = 1-(0.9*0.75*0.75) = 49.4% dodge.
    The mantra passive should be 10% + 25% = 1-(0.9*0.75) = 32.5% dodge.

    Mathematically speaking (eHP), Dodge does not actually diminish in effectiveness. Actually, stacking dodge will prolong your life expectancy multiplicatively. There is no diminishing returns to Dodge.


    As far as dodge/block stacking, the question is whether it is a two-roll system or a one-roll system. Let's say you have 50% dodge and 50% block:
    - Under a one-roll system, you have a 50% chance to dodge, 50% chance to block, and you will never take a full damage hit.
    - Under a two-roll system, you have a 50% chance to dodge... the other 50% of the time, you roll again for the chance to block. So the hit table ends up looking like: 50% dodge, 25% block, 25% hit.

    Because Diablo-type mechanics generally allow players to get high percentages of dodge and block, I would expect the game to use two-roll mechanics. (Otherwise it would be far too easily to become unhittable) However, I don't have any evidence of one or the other.
  19. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    So, math guys...

    While it's not necessarily diminishing returns via what you're telling us here, is there a way to calculate the value of each point?
    I'm not a numbers guy, which is why I post threads like this. It's like catnip for you guys.
  20. Risingred

    Risingred IncGamers Member

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    Re: Dodge and Block Mechanics

    Saw this today, which is good news because I love using shields:

    [​IMG]

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