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Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Zoltar, May 1, 2012. | Replies: 22 | Views: 5127

  1. Zoltar

    Zoltar IncGamers Member

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    Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    I noticed that multiple classes have the ability to debuff enemy damage by 20-25%. Anyone know if these effects stack? If they do stack, I'm sure it will be multiplicative and perhaps capped.

    (WD) Bad Medicine- 20% damage reduction when damaging enemies with poison.
    (Barb) Threatening Shout- 20% damage reduction for 15 seconds.
    (Monk) Resolve- 25% damage reduction when damaging enemies.
    (DH) Numbing Traps- 25% damage reduction when damaging enemies with certain skills.

    If all these were stacked, you would get enemies doing 36% of normal damage. Even if there is a cap, it seems like these skills will be extremely important in Inferno difficulty.
  2. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    No way to know for sure. I'm betting they'll work like slows do and only the most powerful will take effect at a time. This solution would actually promote more diverse skill setups, which I really like.
  3. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    It would be strange if only the most powerful effect was active at once. That makes sense for slow because it is a CC, it is like stunning something already stunned. But things that affect resistances and damage done shouldn't be completely blanked because another class happens to have the same effect. Or maybe I'm just crossing my fingers that my reasoning is correct, or else my group build plan of stacking Conviction-type effects will need to be rethought.
  4. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    If they do stack, then there must be a cap on their effect. Otherwise players will be able to negate most of the damage of enemies in parties.
  5. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    If they stacked multiplicatively then it would be ok. It would be similar to how you could chain CC in coop keeping monsters frozen indefinitely or whatever. In coop you generally have a lot more power than in solo from various aspects, and this one shouldn't really be any different. I'm still surprised they decided to keep the game with hardly any damage increase for monsters and less than "multiply monster HP by number of players" for HP increase when you play in coop, making coop much much easier than solo even if your group has no teamwork, as long as they stick together more or less.
  6. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    I wouldn't like that to be honest. It would still encourage heavy debuff stacking in parties, making builds much more bland. The system I think is in place would be easier to balance and it would increase the number of viable build combinations. A win for everyone involved if you ask me.

    Increasing monster damage in multiplayer would completely mess up the game balance. The HP increase is there to counter the increased damage the monsters will receive, thereby maintaining the difficulty more or less. There's no reason to do the same for monster damage. Co-op shouldn't be harder if the party sticks together, but it would be if monster damage would increase with the number of players.

    Coop must be somewhat easier compared to solo even with modest amount of teamwork to make up for the fact that most group will most likely won't play optimally. If public games would have disadvantages to them most people probably wouldn't play in them. Coop should always be an attractive option.
  7. Sooru

    Sooru IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    The snare way, most powerful one taking effect, is really the only sensible way. Taking away fourth of the damage is probably on par with some of the better defensive buffs.

    However reducing the damage done to 36% would nearly trivialize survival aspect of the game, since monster damage doesn't increase from solo play.

    They've said chaining CC together won't be viable in Inferno, so that can't really be used as an argument here.
  8. Zoltar

    Zoltar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?


    Not really. Increasing the damage would make sense to me, since players are getting much more than additional damage by grouping. Not saying damage should double or anything, but maybe a 10% increase @ 2 players, 15 @ 3 players, and 17% at 4 players.


  9. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    They may get more. The point is that right now it's a choice whether you bring party buffs with you or not, because the game's difficulty doesn't really change with an average group in multiplayer. By buffing monsters further the devs would make that choice for the players.


  10. Zoltar

    Zoltar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    I think even with the damage increase I mentioned, you would still have the difficulty decrease in an average group vs solo'ing. It's not just about buffs/debuffs. It's also the defensive and utility spells that you get by having more players.

    I'm curious about the comment regarding stacking CC not being viable in Inferno. I wonder if that just means something as simple as mobs being stun immune. Will snares be less effective?


  11. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    Actually, with 4 players playing perfectly together and not using any CC, 4X damage and 4x HP would not be much harder than solo for a player that plays perfectly alone. To make it easier they scale HP only to 2.5X and don't scale damage at all, if I recall correctly. That means not only you kill faster than solo, but you also die 4X slower if you divide damage among party members, or have 1 player tank all the damage while the rest are perfectly safe if all damage goes to that one player (and I'm really not sure which option is easier - both are really so much easier than solo). Then you have buff stacking and CC chaining to add on top of it all. Really, they seem to not care much about how much easier the game becomes when you get in a group, which either means the game will be too easy with a group, or too hard to solo (or both!), depending on how they balance it.

    I wouldn't mind about monster damage not increasing to something close to 4X if they would at least gain some AOE capability. Then again, maybe in inferno they will...

    When it comes to damage reduction stacking, just like it might be difficult to chain CCs, it might also be difficult to stack damage debuffs. Most have limited range, limited AOE and/or a cooldown. You simply won't be able to keep them up 100% of the time. Besides, if they stack multiplicatively, that simply means they're just as good in a group situation as they are in solo! If they seem to you too powerful in a group situation compared to solo when stacking multiplicatively, that's simply because groups are too powerful compared to solo period, and has nothing to do with damage reduction skills specifically.

    As for "CC chains won't be viable in inferno", my bet is that he means "you'll be too worried running for your life to have any change to focus on chaining CCs". And that really can be applied to damage reduction buffs too.

    Just like buffs, debuffs become more powerful in a group. Unless they plan to do a complete overhaul to how groups work, I don't see why damage reduction debuffs should be any different.


    Not that I would complain if it would be like snares with only the strongest one taking effect. It's not like debuff skills are very fun to use anyway. If you take an extra swing/shot from all monsters just by trying to apply the debuff, that already makes you think twice about casting it rather than just killing the monsters. So in the end, I don't know if they would really be all that powerful anyway, and it'd probably be fine either way (be it multiplicative stacking or just strongest one).
  12. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    It's 3.25X, +75% for every additional player currently. Some people have said, that damage and monster density is increased as well, but I didn't notice it.

    You can't treat the players HP as a shared pool in multiplayer, which is basically what the 4X damage multiplier would imply. The party-wide incoming damage from large groups of melee monsters already increases, since in solo only so much enemy can surround and still hit you. In a party more monsters can pummel away on players at a time, if they let them. Also, the damage of AoE abilities could of course already scale with the number of players as well.

    As for one player taking all the damage, that would be a disaster with 4 times the damage. Suddenly defensive skills and items would be 4 times as important in a party, since without a simple aggro system you can never know when all the monster will turn on you in Diablo. It would be an inconvenience to keep a different gear setup for parties and it would seriously deter players from playing in groups in my opinion. It's also isn't in the spirit of Diablo, where you should be able to easily jump from a solo game to multiplayer and have fun.

    A slight increase in damage or preferably monster density would be fine though and the increased amount of monsters would probably add to the fun of mutliplayer.

    It will be much easier with a perfect group, but that's an idealistic scenario. Most groups probably won't be perfect and they took this into consideration. I think if it turns out that even the majority of public groups are facerolling the content then they will increase monster stats further in multiplayer games.

    You also have to keep in mind that they're designing D3 to be a coop game, so multiplayer simply cannot have many disadvantages. Some players already don't like the averaged MF values, think about what would happen if the game would actually become noticeably harder in groups. "Why put up with other people, when solo is easier as well?" would be what players would be thinking in that situation and some already do.

    In theory that's true. However in practice they would be more valued in groups since you can stack more of them (just like buffs, I'm not exactly OK with their implementation either), thereby possibly reaching certain crucial breakpoints like reducing monster damage below your Life regen. This is just one thing that can I foresee, there could be many similar problems.

    That doesn't seem right to me. You should focus on CC exactly when you're in trouble like that. :)

    Think about the implications for class and build viability. WoW had stacking buffs almost without regulations at launch. It was a tragedy in many ways, but mainly because it really hurt class viability and thereby diversity in groups. There won't be raid groups in D3, but I think the analogy still stands. Like I said, I think that by making only the most powerful debuff of a type take effect at a time the devs would encourage class and skill diversity, make party roles simpler and clearer, all the while making the game easier to balance as well.

    Multiplicative stacking would somewhat help with those issues as well, but not to the same extent by far.

    I agree. The problem though is that many players aren't choosing skills based on what's fun, but based on what's optimal. Bashiok was right when he said that optimal and not fun in the same sentence usually means bad design.


    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  13. Sooru

    Sooru IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    One more thing which makes it really different in party of four versus single player scenario: When playing solo, you stop fighting when you hit 0 hp, until that time you're as good as ever.

    When partying, your total hp pool of 400% does not work the same way. The combined player entity loses 1/4 of it's fighting power for every multiple of 100% hp lost. With no proper aggro control, it's impossible to spread that evenly, accidents happen and the weakest player will get ganged up eventually. As the blue quote said, if you lose one member in party of 4, it becomes very very hard. For a party of 3, it's a disaster.
  14. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    That's a much better explanation for why quadrupling the monster damage would hurt coop, thanks Sooru.

    From a HC perspective I still think that the greatest advantage to playing in a party is that if you disconnect there's a chance that you'll still live to tell about it, so to speak. :)
  15. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    Sooru, that's only true if one play is taking all the damage, which is not what you want to happen if you're playing optimally with your group, for the exact reason you stated.

    I never actually said they should do 4X damage. Obviously that would make coop clearly harder than solo, and that shouldn't be what they're shooting for. But the arguments for why 4X damage is not completely out of the blue are good enough to justify monsters doing more than just 1X damage. Whether it should be 1.5X, 2X, or maybe 3X I don't know, it depends on the many factors already brought up here. Keeping it 1X, though, is not very good IMO, and makes coop just way too easy in comparison to solo. Again, I brought the 4X number to show why 1X is most likely not high enough, not to say that 4X is the way to go.

    Yes, I think they should encourage coop, but only by making it a bit easier, not by making it a lot easier.

    As for damage reduction debuffs, it really depends how it works out in the end. A global damage reduction that is active all the time is very different than a damage reduction debuff that has limited AOE, range and/or cooldown and takes effort to apply.

    As for CC, what I meant is not that you won't use CC in those situations, but you'll have a very hard time chaining them with good timings in such situations. If you run away and use frost nova to get some monsters off your back and are only hitting 1/2 of them while they're out of range of the other wizard who should be chaining his nova after you, he'll have to run in range and cast it just at the right time, all while the unfrozen monsters are after him. If I understand Bashiok's intention correctly, he probably means that the other wizard will probably just use frost nova to stop stuff from pounding on him rather than have the time to worry about chaining his nova with the other wizard's nova, not to mention how hard it might be to actually nova a big portion of the monsters. This is all speculation, yes, but it shows you it is possible for them to make CC chains not really viable if they make things hard and chaotic enough, and really the same arguments can be used for damage reduction stacking.

    So while I wouldn't mind damage reduction stacking to work either way (aka multiplicative or just the highest one), I don't see them as a real problem until we actually see if we can use them in such an optimal way. Same goes for group buffs - Until I see group buff stacking making the game much easier, I don't plan to complain about it, even though it seems just as problematic if not more (since at least some buffs, unlike debuffs, are always active and easy to apply. Then again off the top of my head only warcry really applies here, but there must be more I'm forgetting).
  16. Sooru

    Sooru IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    I didn't mean that monsters would actually kill the players one by one. But as you seem to agree, the fights will be chaotic, and eventually someone will die. At that point the complete loss of 1/4 of the party will also affect the dps (and control/debuff!) output of the group. The point still stands, there is no such possibility in solo play.

    There's a factor which will inevitably make group play way easier for some groups than others, player skill. I dare say most players in public games have absolutely no clue how to complement the other player's weaknesses with their own abilities. The co-op experience still has to be possible for these people. On the other end are the people (like us talking in this thread) who already know, before release, how things will work. Knowing you can trust on the wizard to nova when monsters run after you is priceless.



    One more thing that I believe isn't mentioned yet is that when playing as a group, the monsters will have four times the number of targets to choose from. There's no way players can be expected to stay in the same location all the time. Knockbacks, fears, stuns, running after loot will all make the group disperse. This reduces the effectivity of CC further, since a monster that is prevented from attacking one player might actually still be dangerous to another character.

    On average, this effect increases monster dps compared to solo play.
  17. Zoltar

    Zoltar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    Good points. Lets do a simple comparison. Consider an act boss and a player(s) with the same HP and dps. For simplicity sake, they all have 100 HP and do 1 DPS baseline.

    1 on 1:

    Boss- 100 HP, 1 DPS
    Player- 100 HP, 1 DPS
    Outcome- Draw after 100 seconds.

    In a 4 player group scenario with no damage scaling:

    Boss- 400 HP, 1 DPS
    Players- 4 x 100 HP, 4 x 1 DPS
    Outcome- Players win after 100s. With focused DPS, boss kills first player as he dies. With evenly split damage, players all survive at 75/100 HP.

    Where things get interesting is when you look at the damage scaling the boss would need to get back to a draw and the difference between focused and spread damage. After doing the math, the encounter will end in a tie with the boss doing 250% damage if he focuses one player at a time.
    Now, if the damage is being spread out evenly among players (still single target), the boss would need his damage to scale to approximately 400% in order to reach a draw.

    But we're still looking at simple examples where damage is smooth, there's no healing, no aoe damage, and no abilities like stun, etc. Each of these complicates the outcome.

    For poops and laughs, lets look at how healing/regen affect things. Say the boss now does 2 dps baseline while the players regens 1 hps. Note that this would still produce a draw in a single player scenario. Moving to a four player scenario, the damage scaling needed to reach a draw (focused fire method) is now only 175%. This is because with players regenerating health, the increase in the boss's effective DPS (i.e. factoring in the healing) is larger than the increase in actual DPS. A 50% increase to actual DPS (2 dps to 3 dps) is going to double the effective DPS(2-1= 1 dps versus 3-1= 2 dps).


    Bottom line is there probably isn't going to be a magic number for Blizzard to scale monster damage by and not have wildly different results based on the particulars of a fight.


    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  18. Zoltar

    Zoltar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    The way Blizzard is talking about Inferno, I am not sure if 4 players in a public game that don't know how to compliment each other's playstyle will be viable. I hope it isn't :D


  19. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    If they aren't viable, then solo is even less likely to be viable. At least that's what current scaling numbers seem to indicate.

    Of course there is no real "magic number", but I highly doubt that little to no damage increase is anywhere near what might be as close to a "magic number" as possible.

    Back on topic, indeed if players have significant amounts of consistent healing (and not just a big health globe per phase in fight that basically is a "start over" point in terms of player HP), then damage reduction becomes better, and multiple ones even better (since the more damage you reduce, the more effective additional damage reductions become, because boss dps minus healing can actually reach zero or negative values). I wonder if we'll actually have enough consistent healing for this to be a real factor, though, or if most of our healing will be from big health globes that just get us back to full or close to it and we just need to do enough damage without dying to cause the next health globe to spawn (since health globe spawns depend on damage dealt too, not just on how long you survive).



  20. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Do damage reduction debuffs stack?

    Allowing only one debuff to work would kind of piss on a lot of solo tank builds, no?. Just insert a penalty for stacking DR sources from multiple players and call it a night.

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