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Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by nSin, Apr 22, 2012. | Replies: 39 | Views: 2298

  1. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    If you look at my join date you know where I'm coming from. I might be way too old to play games at this point but I got such fond memories of D1 and D2 that I really want D3 to work.

    I can sum up this post in 5 points

    - No free weapon choice
    - No primary attack
    - No attribute choice
    - No access to the build you want untill level 50+
    - No sense of commitment to your build

    I am sure that there are a lot of people out there that could care less about these points. Perhaps people have been spoiled with previous games. But I just can't help feeling that these are some serious let downs.

    No free weapon choice & primary attack
    My first point, why can't a barb use a wand? Why can't a barb use a bow? It certainly can't be his physique. Especially the way the barb is setup right now there are so many options for barbarians to be skill spammers. I could see myself walking around as a Barmage with Wand or Staff that has +xx fury regeneration Magefists, SOJ's and an Arachnids Mesh and bring my enemies to a world of pain spamming skills. It's just such a shame that this option ain't available.

    I know that a Sorc could probably be a melee mage as well but blizzard took away this form of customization by not giving primary attack a slot, and making it obsolete in general. Why? This is something I just don't understand. Why take away the option of throwing with Javalins manually. Why does every attack need to do something special? If you do something over and over again it doesn't become so special anymore. I liked primary attack, I liked that in D2, you had to have some decent gear atleast to do "something awesome"(insert skill) all the time. That this also disallows some form of customization is one unneccesary side effect that I do not expect from a game with this development time.

    No atttribute choice
    I know this has been beaten to death. And when you look at the topics where it has been beaten to death, you'll likely find my posts. Limiting attribute choice is yet another step in limiting customization. Yes, for a certain build there is a definite optimum to be chosen. And as such, you could argue that stat points are a meaningless form of customization. BUT in order to do a variant build you need to alter your stats to be as effective as possible. Sure there are countless of new players that don't know anything about stats. But instead of just taking the option away entirely, the sysem could suggest a good stat allocation.

    No access to the build you want untill level 50+
    This is a big deal for me. In fact, it seriously ruins a large part of the game. In D2, you had your build finished at level 30, as in - you had all the skills. After that, all you were doing is making your build stronger. For some reason, Blizzard got the idea that it is a good idea to limit their users by making skills available near the end of the game. Some builds do not work without a certain rune effect. It is absolutely beyond me why Blizzard took this route. Playing past level 60 might happen. I dislike the idea (in practice, it's also one of the things I dislike about Guild Wars), but why do you not allow your players to enjoy the build they came up with untill the game is almost finished. This is seriously a very bad design choice. It is one thing to give players a sense of accomplishment, but this is taking it a step too far.

    No sense of commitment to your build
    Your skill bar is entirely meaningless. You got all skills and all runes at your disposal at pretty much every point of the game. As such, the mathematically correct thing to do is to make use a build while attacking mobs and switching out these skills when you face a boss. I was facing leoric and cleaving him to death, but all I was doing was cheating myself. There is absolutely no reason to switch out cleave and leap and take other skills to deal with a boss fight. I am not a player that is going to stick to a build because I got a sense of righteousness and the game developpers did not intend the game in a certain way. It is the task of the game developpers to give meaningfull limits to the game (in which meaningful is not taking away bows from Barbarians - totally senseless). The developpers give a clear indication that they do not want you to switch skills all the time, that's why there is a cooldown. But their limitation imposed is completely ineffective. A let down and bad design in my opinion.

    There's actually a lot of things I do like about the game. Like the lore, the way quests are told, the crafting system, the champion packs, the match making system, the abundance of subbosses. But these points above are just so... annoying and unneccesary that I can't help but feel an overall sense of let down.

    /rant
  2. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    I don't really disagree with any of your points but I'm pretty much over them except this one:

    No access to the build you want until level 50+

    That one still really bugs me.
  3. BellaStrega

    BellaStrega IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Attribute choices are handled through gear and gems, is my understanding, and there's a lot of room for customization from those.

    I think "the build you want" is a moving target for each person, so level 50+ for some, maybe, but not all.

    No sense of commitment is addressed by this: http://www.diablowiki.net/Nephalem_valor
  4. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    nSin not discrediting your post here, but I disagree with the notion that D3 isn't the most customizable RPG in history.

    When you take a detailed look in to the depth of the skill/rune system, how slow weapons / fast weapons, dual wielding, 2h etc plays in to your build choice, you'll then see just how much customization and meaningful choices there are in Diablo 3.
  5. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    @yovargas - actually, I think I dislike that one the most as well. I think that D2 solves it much more elegantly by making it available at level 30.

    @BellaStrenga - I know about the Nephalem Valor. You make a valid point don't get me wrong. But it kicks in at level 60. I got to level 13 exploring everything in ~4 hours. So level 60 means that I'll have spend like, 40 hours (?) in the game without this sense of permance.... I'm a bit annoyed by it.

    I have argued back and forth over attribute choices. I know that attribute choices are in the game as gems as well. But still, that you can't choose them each level is - in my opinion - an unneccesary limitation. Even when there are mathematically correct builds I would have liked the option to venture away from mainstream builds to make a mathematically correct build as a variant build.

    @Azzure weren't all these choices in D2 as well? I mean, if you took a 2H mace you were pretty much assured that you weren't going to hit a certain amount of hits per second. You know what, I hope that this system turns out as deep as you say. But it doesn't neglect what isn't in the game right now.
  6. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    There is no such thing!

    Fat fingers of course.
    I dont really have an issue with barbs not using wands, wands are very much a symbolic caster weapon, but for some weapons it does seem too restrictive, like bows for barbs.

    Basic attack should be back and useful, no doubt. At this point they should just make it into an actual skill with rune choices imo.

    Is it really much of a change? Instead of placing attribute points through buttons you place them through gear. The difference seems minimal to me.

    My problem with attributes is rather how utterly boring they are. Each class will ever only want two of them. It is a failure when Blizzard cant come up with 4 stats which are somewhat desirable for all classes.

    Imo the 4 attributes should have benefited different weapon types instead of different classes, meaning a barb who wanted big 2 handers would go strenght, a barb who wanted to dual-wield small 1handers went dex, a barb who wanted, for whatever reasons, to use a staff went for int. Etc.

    And you are certainly not alone, this is just stupid.

    Now this is my biggest issue with the game. By far.
    And it certainly does not seem like Nephalem Valor will do much to improve the situation.
    Unless it takes hours to build up Nephalem Valor, it will be just about useless.


  7. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Well. It does make sense from their perspective. Because gear can be changed and attribute points are a bit harder. I don't see a reason to entirely leave it out though. There was no harm done by leaving it in. I will go as far as saying that it is minor for me, but I enjoyed having something to tinker with on each level up. It sort of seems like everything is done for you.

    I guess in terms of customization, it could be equal to D2, but in terms of potential it didn't reach what it could have been.

    I completely agree here. I see little meaningful choices in stat allocation with their current system.



  8. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Hey nSin read this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085

    Quite frankly, he lays out my opinion on these matters far more eloquently and with more insight than I could. I feel a little silly linking this all the time, but honestly, the more people who read it the better. Not everyone may agree, but I'm hoping that at least a few will change their minds after reading this.
  9. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    1. does not bother me at all. not sure it makes sense but i dont care. plenty of weapons for me so its whatever

    2. i rather use skills so again this does not bother me

    3. i like it better this way. i see nothing fun about adding 5 attribute points per level. its annoying

    4. agree. it would be nice if you could pick a rune while leveling. an extra benefit of this is as you leveled you would be much more unique. people would be picking different runes at different times so even if you level as a wiz with 3 other wiz even with the same skills you could be different. leave the unlocks alone, just let us pick what rune we take

    5. this is my biggest issue with the game. this is the issue i think will lessen replayability by a lot. really i feel forced to play hardcore because of it

    edit: number 5 actually my second biggest problem. my first is how they built this game to get ported. i much rather they had focused on just the pc and made it for a pc. worry about the stupid consoles later
  10. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    I already read it 4 months ago. I don't know why you would assume I say this without sufficient information. I'm a well informed individual just like yourself.

    He doesn't even touch upon my first point, second point 4th point or 5th point. He does touch upon my second point with the argument that in raw statpoints, DIII > DII. The only thing I can say on this is that raw statpoints are an invalid comparison. It will need to be compared within the scope of the game. And secondly, with attributes at their disposal there was no reason to not include it. Yet they chose not to.

    And if you look at my post, it all has a very close connection to eachother. It is the sum of the parts, not so much the individual points made.

    May I add that I really like the Blacksmith, Jeweler, Auction house and the skills as they are (so not the way they are unlocked). I agree with many things he says. That doesn't mean that there is suddenly customization in the game.



  11. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    It is mostly BS anyway, he argues that melee wizards would go for str or dex, when even Blizzard have said they won't, as melee wizards will be much better off going directly for armor and dodge.
    The defensive bonuses on attributes are, according to Blizzard, just that; bonuses. Not something people would go for specifically.
  12. Carisma

    Carisma IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    1) No Free weapon choice

    So let me get this straight your upset you big muscle barb can use a fairy's wand? I think blizzard did this for the integrity of the Barb.

    Honestly though, the weapon they do not let someone equip is for either lore reasons or there is no way to make them work. This does not by any means reduce the customization.

    2) No attribute choice

    This system is put in place so that people that do not know how do it correctly does not have to restart a new character fix stats. And for us that do understand, we don't have to worry either.

    Be honest how often did you choose to invest into energy as a barb, and how often did you stray off from the path "the internet said this is how to do it." Probably not at all.

    3) No access to the build you want til level 50

    What character in Diablo II where you able to finish the build at lv 30, for me even at the high 80's amd low 90's I wanted to level for that one extra skill point. Especially after synergies came about, i found my self holding onto skill points in early levels, which made me weaker, so I could invest the correctly later down the road - that is bad game design.

    What they are doing know is smart, they are forcing players to try new things, not only that at level 60 you still can change things up. How can you say certain build will not work with out certain rune effects, when you don't even know what builds are viable yet, and how dependent they are on certain rune effects?

    4)No sense of commitment to your build

    Duh! Different build will work better in different situations. The fact you don't have to commit to something make it more customizable. So is this point defending or attacking you?

    5) No Basic Attack?

    How many time did you at lvl 85 run up with your mage and wand diablo to death?

    Also take note the abilities in your primary slot use little or no energy resource, so "basic"ly this becomes your basic attack. So are you complaining they gave us something flashy from the start?

    edit: in case you look at my start date, this is a newer account to match up to my battle tag, and my gamer name I have been using. I used to go by Ishtor back in the day.
  13. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Respeccing would already mean that people didn't have to worry about placing their points wrong or having to restart characters. So that cant be much of a reason against attribute choices.
    There seems to be 2 reasons mostly:
    1) Blizzard does not think it is good gameplay to click a button 50 times. They prefer if you choose through gear (and maybe other itemized systems, like the Talisman would have been)
    2) Blizzard doesn't have enough imagination to make attribute points which would be interesting to choose from, so they believe that attribute points are not a real choice, as you will always pick the same attribute - which is true in both D2 and D3, but mostly due to those attributes being ridiculously one-sided.

    I dont think that is the real issue people have here.
    They want the game to allow untypical builds, such as a melee wizard, ranged weapon barb etc.
    They cling unto basic attack, as basic attack is an obvious option for a melee wizard for example.
    I bet most of them would be just as happy if a skill (or multiple) were added to each class, which allowed for such builds.
    No matter if it was technically the basic attack or not.

    No.
    If you don't commit you don't customize. You simply have a broad palette of things to use at any given time, whenever it is most advantageous. You never have to pick one thing over another, and live with the consequences of that choice. No commitment, no consequence, no choice, no customization.

    You can certainly argue whether customization is the wrong word to use here, and while I don't want to get into a debate about semantics, that is how the word is being used.
    Specialization is probably the more correct word to use, but for all intends and purposes, customization = specialization in this debate. If you have a car, and choose to make it yellow, then you are at the same time choosing not to make it green (or any other color). That is customization, and specialization for that matter.


    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  14. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    It is entirely possible to play the current barb as a caster considering the high fury costs for some spells. Hammer of the Ancients, Seismic Slam, Call of the Anciens, Ancient Spear, Weapon Throw, Earthquake. You could probably do this from afar with fury linked to int and the possibility to use caster weapons. I know you were being sarcastic, but sarcasm is not an argument.

    Lore reasons that weren't there in D2. Please explain to me what lore reasons there are behind Barbs not using bows? No seriously, this is just an incredibly weak argument. Name one other occasion where blizzard let lore overrule gameplay options.

    Neverwinter Nights had auto specs for people that were clueless. A much more elegant way. Just because some people don't know, does not mean all people don't and should be restricted.

    You don't know me. I'm honest, a lot, and many of the people I knew on battle.net did too. After years of playing you get creative.

    You get all skills you want to play with at level 30 - only their power increases afterwards.
    Then they should have redesigned it that this was not neccesary. Either way, level 30 was available in ~10-15 hours without rushing (?) you could play around with your build at that time. Weak, but you could. Many functionalities don't become available until level 50 (40 hours?) in the game. Big difference.

    Alright I'll bite.

    I want to make a rocket sin Ballistics, the passive skill that makes it all worthwhile is available at level 55. Under the assumption that everything is balanced, a rocket sin will be an inferior build to play until level 55. So I need to be 40 hours into the game until I can play a rocket sin.

    I want to make a Barbarian that lives on Wrath of the Berserker and keeping that skill up. That rune becomes available at level 60. 40 hours in the game. Until that time, I need to do something I did not want to do. That's terrible, terrible game design. Sorry there's no excuse for that.

    It means that instead of having a skill bar, you got all skills available at all times. So basically, my skill set is the same as everyone elses skillset potentially. No commitment to a build is a bad thing for me because it doesn't make choices meaningful.

    You don't have to agree with me, but I know many people want to make sensible choices in a game that actually make a difference. It's like playing Mass Effect and choosing the evil option all the time but still getting the same ending as choosing good options.. =/

    I've had pally builds with bows that used basic attacks. And a poison necro that used that dagger quite well. It's not the point though. The transition from basic attack to a flashy skill isn't there anymore, which doesn't make it meaningful. In d2, you had to make an investment to be able to use your skills. Now it comes for free.
    And it takes away a part of the customization.



    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  15. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Genius, bluntly take away any choice so that people can't choose wrongly.
    So, um, why not let Blizzard auto-target monsters for you, since obviously you do not want to target the wrong monster, right?
    People like you drive me up the wall with their inane, illogical, inconsequential, unreasonably, senseless, idiotic, driveling ramblings.

    Also, you're from Kentucky (assumingly USA), so unless you're like eleven (and honestly, i think you are) you should be able to atleast try and learn how to form a proper English sentence.


  16. ShadoutMapes

    ShadoutMapes IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Awesome! My first demon hunter is going to be ballistics as well.
    Pretty much the only class I have looked at specs for pre-relase, because the ballistics spec looked so interesting.
    It is sad they nerfed Ballistics though :(


  17. Sulle

    Sulle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    I can personally imagine from an analytical point of view, that there would actually be a lot of commitment and permanency to your build once you get to level 60 and find some really nice items, because the items will de facto define the build you want to make.

    I.e. if I found the best critical items for my DH or barb or some items, which boosted certain skills, that would work in that particular build, then you would certainly want to hold on to them. Furthermore, I could also imagine, that you would experiment with the certain skills, that would benefit from a high crit build and eventually you would find a sweet spot, where your build in combination with the items would maximize it´s potential. So from this point of view I do see a lot of permanancy and also commitment, because how many would change their skills and items all the time, if they already have a really powerful build?

    There´s also another positive aspect of this, and that´s the fact, that when you don´t have items lying in your shared chest taking up space, so you have more room in it, and since we don´t have unlimited room, it´s a nice way to make good use of it, when you don´t want to sell them that is.


    I totally agree with this, but unfortunately I think it´s the best blizzard can do with their current skill system :/


  18. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    The simple option to let us pick which rune we want would've fixed this. I see zero downsides to it and bunches of fans suggested it the moment the redesign was announced. Would've been so much better and even added some much needed re-playability to the game.


  19. buddah

    buddah IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    To me D3 feels like it's hacked from the start. Kind of like I've been using a "hero editor" prior to playing. I imagine the hacked feeling will only increase as you progress. This is not good because it makes me lose interest fast. Barries and limitations is what defines a game.
  20. Sulle

    Sulle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Maybe blizzard thought some of the runes are Op early on? I don´t know, but it´s non the less a good idea.


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