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Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Fuzion, Apr 10, 2012. | Replies: 36 | Views: 17027

  1. Fuzion

    Fuzion IncGamers Member

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    Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    So I was thinking about dual wield builds, and while they don't hold a lot of appeal to me, one particular advantage did strike me as tough to balance with respect to 2 handed builds. Many effects are on-crit, and with a dual wield build you will naturally be doing more strikes than a 2 handed weapon due to the inherent 15% IAS. This begs the question: how do you make the increased frequency of crits, and their effects fair?

    With more swings comes more chances to crit, with reduced damage per swing the increase of crits is smoothed over by reduced crit damage. However on-crit effects that restore Fury, health or reduce cool downs have a static magnitude - that is, 2 handed or dual wielding, you're getting the same effect on-crit, meanwhile dual wielding is receiving more crits.

    The obvious answer would be to reduce the crit chance on dual wield builds, but it's not so simple, abilities do damage in one instance, reducing the crit chance would be reducing the frequency of ability criticals.

    So how should this problem be addressed? Of course it seems like a bit of an issue, if it's already been resolved or at least discussed, or if there's some critical flaw in my reasoning I've missed, forgive my stupidity and ignore me!
  2. Fuzzyboy

    Fuzzyboy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Your point seems valid, though 2-hander builds have other advantages. Skills that depend on weapon damage without depending on fury or attackspeed, ie. revenge, earthquake, call of the ancients, furious charge, leap, overpower (though modified by crit), ancient spear etc. have an advantage for 2h builds (at least as far as I understand damage mechanics).
  3. Fuzion

    Fuzion IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Yeah I figured as much. I guess this is one edge DW has over 2h. Only time will tell if the two balance out or if numbers need tweaking, if not here, maybe somewhere else.
  4. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    I don't think this will be a problem because, as Fuzzyboy said, two-handers are better in other areas. Allowing dual-wielding to proc more effects will help to differentiate its playstyle even more and it doesn't necessarily make it better. For example, compared to two-handers you may get more Fury from crits in a given time if you dual-wield, but you'll also need more if your DPS is to stay on par with 2H, because your skills will do less damage. For defensive skills, this will give an edge to dual-wielding though, because these skills don't care about your weapons.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  5. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    I've been meaning to make a post about this, albeit a bit more in-detail. However, this will be just fine! I got a banging headache and fever so hopefully I don't mess up this train of thought. :wink:

    So, as some people have previously suggested, Diablo seems a candidate to also adopt a ppm (proc per minute) mechanic. If you're not familiar with the WoW mechanic that is ppm and its inherent flaws when using it in a combat system that is WoW melee, here's a short description:

    The % chance to proc something in a ppm system is not flat, it's fluctuating with the base attack speed of your weapon in order to maintain a decently even ppm among weapon speeds. As such, faster weapons have a lower chance to proc per swing than slower weapons.

    WoW PPM mechanics description

    In WoW there is a flaw with this setup, the ppm mechanics are assuming that white attacks only are dealt. WoW has "another" layer of attacks (special attacks, the abilities you cast yourself) on top of the auto attacks that aren't as much dependant on weapon speeds (there are exceptions such as rogues' combat potency), and therefore the amount of special attacks dealt stays (almost) the same among weapon speeds. These special attacks can in most cases also trigger procs, with the same proc rate as the corresponding white attacks. This skews ppm mechanics to favor slower weapons to proc more, which might seem like a fallacy.

    If you have an issue seeing why, we'll take an extreme example. Let's say we have a 10 speed weapon (ie 10 second swingtimer, or 0,1 APS) and let's say this equals to a 100% proc rate. And in the other hand we have a 1 speed weapon, which let's say equals to a 10% proc rate. The slow weapon will autoattack to a ratio of 1:10, but each proc is guaranteed. On average, they will both proc the same amount from white hits per minute. Now, let's add special attacks. WoW has a base gcd of 1,5 sec for most classes (not always the case, but let's use that). And let's assume they have a resource other than rage, such as energy or runic power. During these 10 seconds, both will deal the same amount of special attacks, but the slower weapons will proc each attack, whereas the fast won't, resulting in a much higher number of procs for the slower weapon.


    Enter Diablo 3.

    There are no auto-attacks at all, the weapon speed differencies equals to an increase of number of attacks dealt by a perfect ratio of aps 1: aps 2. This is the perfect system to use ppm based proc mechanics for, it will provide a much more even number of procs amongst the weapon speeds.


    I simplified ppm a bit, last I checked WoW used a formula consisting of this:

    Proc % Swing = Base WS * PPM / 60

    The PPM is not a known variable, this has to be derived purely from testing and extracting procs from large samples of data. This would obviously prove difficult for three main reasons: there are no dolls, several effects are chance on crit, and we don't have any combat log. :scratchchin:


    However, that's all fine in a sense, because they're going to become very even in the Diablo universe. In fact, they'll be perfectly equal as long as the IAS remains the same (if it uses base weapon speed rather than hasted attack speed). I'll show you a few different weapon speeds and their proc rates. The proc rates all uses the formula of WS * PPM / 60. In this case the PPM is an arbitrary number of 6 ppm.

    Code:
    WS     % Swing  APS*Proc%*60
    1,1     ~ 9,1%      6 ppm
    1,2     ~ 8,3%      6 ppm
    1,3     ~ 7,7%      6 ppm
    1,4     ~ 7,1%      6 ppm
    1,5     ~ 6,7%      6 ppm
    

    I should note that there are exceptions to this. WW seems to have a somewhat set APS which would highly favor slower weapons for both damage and procs. Abilities such as Ancient Spear also seem to use a set APS of 1.2 (or thereabout), which again would favor slower weapons.

    Another important note is that this proc % swing and formula assumes non-crit procs. For the crit-based procs (of which we have several) another variable must be added to offset the increased number of crits/second for faster weapons even further (if you wanted a perfectly even number of actual ppm before IAS). I might be wrong here, my head's a little wonky at the moment.


    Enter IAS effects.


    These will be the determining factor of which procs more attacks. The PPM formula uses only the base weapon speed, and as such, more attacks equals to more procs in the same period of time. There is of course the possibility that IAS effects does fade off the proc % swing as well, but in this particular case I doubt it. There would be no increased return of procs with increased weapon speeds at all, and that appears to go against Bashiok and Jay Wilsons previous quotes that dual-wielding will be the proc machine of the gods. They might have overstated the procs of dual-wielding possibly (if d3 uses a ppm system), and it's possible that they still don't weigh the ppm to be exactly equal, but just to close the gap somewhat and so on.


    Conclusion

    The biggest reason why I think Diablo 3 is going to use a ppm mechanic is simply down to the tooltips, and that they have similar systems in place for certain spells and %wpn dmg, where the weapon speed will determine your %wpn dmg. We get to know no information other than that there's a chance to proc something. This is exactly what we're seeing in WoW when ppm mechanics are involved.

    I reiterate, there are many nuances and possibilities to a ppm system. If it uses base weapon speeds, IAS effects will linearly increase the amount of procs, which favors dual-wielding builds in terms of number of procs due to the possibility of having slightly higher IAS in similar builds.
  6. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    I noticed two common misconceptions about the PPM system, which I would like to address here now that you brought it up:

    1) The proc chance in a PPM system is just that, a chance. The name may imply a fixed number of procs per minute to some, but the chance is still just an average.

    2) Hidden cooldowns aren't part of the PPM system. I have seen people saying otherwise in the past.

    Anyway, great explanation Superstate, as always. I hope you'll get better soon.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  7. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    To be honest I understood very little of what you said superstate! lol
  8. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Let me try to give a quick summary of his post.

    A PPM system means, that the proc chance of an effect is adjusted based on your weapon speed. For example:

    1 APS = 20% chance to proc
    2 APS = 10% chance to proc

    In both cases, the PPM will be 12 on average. In D3, this system wouldn't favor either slow or fast weapons in most cases.

    Personally I think, that they won't use this system exactly for this reason, at least not for every effect. There are effects in the game which give resources on crits for example. These must favor faster weapons, since with them you'd need more resources for skills to achieve the same DPS as with slower weapons.

    If you have questions Lucas, feel free to ask.
  9. Superstate

    Superstate IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    It's where the specific phrase "chance to" is used I'm seeing a ppm effect, as such, resource on crit and so on in most cases are not followed by chance-to effects, they are guaranteed on crits.


    To add to the APS, the reason why I don't think they'll be using a flat chance in these particular cases ("chance to") is because faster weapons are already favoured by for example faster fury gain, since fury gain can be said to be a 100% proc event with a flat gain of X fury, there is no normalization there (rage normalization anyone!? :whistling:). They are also favoured by elemental affixes, and the ruby gem and several flat % chances that we know of in the game.

    Some of these flat % chances are Smite, Sidearm, Scattering Blast, Clobber and so on. The ppm mechanics would be used mainly for BR runestones (Into the Fray, Swords to Plougshares, Ferocity, Bloodshed) and Slaughter for WotB for the Barbarian. I realize this might be a marginal topic but.. it might have more relevance to the other classes.


    Thank you! :nod:


  10. Cid

    Cid IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    i would really like to know how high the "chance on" effects are.
    i can remember there have been some wording in the beta before like "this effect can only happen once every 3 seconds", so maybe "chance on" is the same in disguise (a passive ppm system)?

    one more thing about dual wielding vs 2h weapons:
    there seem to be class specific affixes that can only spawn on class specific weapon/armor.
    lets take the barbarian as an example, theses class affixes could only spawn on mighty belt armor piece and mighty weapons.
    so in theory, dual wielding mighty weapons + mighty belt gives you 3 sources of that class affix, whereas 2h mighty weapon + mighty belt gives you only 2 sources.
  11. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Arcane Dynamo for the Wizard used a system like that before, but it was changed since then. Also that isn't the same thing as a PPM system. The short cooldown system gives you a fixed number of procs over any given amount of time. The PPM system doesn't, unless we are talking about infinitely long periods. Over just one minute, an effect with 10 PPM may still occur only 6 times for example, but the chance of that is lower than it occuring 10 times.

    If this becomes a problem, then two-handers should spawn with more of that stat.


  12. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Third thing is that at least rings can roll flat damage affixes. I don't remember if other non weapon slots got flat damage modifiers, but flat damage tends to favor faster attack speeds and dualwielding.

    Seems like it can be found on amulets as well.


    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  13. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Yeah, Amulets and Rings can spawn with the MinMaxDamage affix, although only with the secondary one, which is much less powerful than the one found on weapons. Also, it's interesting that patch 16 added a specific MinMaxDamage for fast weapons, which is worse than what can be found on slower weapons. I think I haven't seen this affix in previous patches. In this case, fast weapons mean daggers and hand crossbows. I guess the flat increase in damage got out of hand for these two item types later in the game.
  14. Cid

    Cid IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    time is not a factor for me here, i am just wondering if "chance on" effects may still use the (passive) ppm system they had on some skills before.
    actually, "on chance" could be both: you have a 50% chance a crit will reduce the cooldown on a skill by 1 second. this effect can only occure once every 3 seconds.
    or it could just be a flat % chance.
    as some build rely heavily on that mechanic it would be nice to have some more info here.

    ppm sets a maxium amount of procs in a given time.period.
    if that proc is guaranteed or only has a chance to proc doesn't matter for what i am trying to say here ;)
  15. Karpalo

    Karpalo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    There is also the possibility of AoE penalties i.e proc chance is divided by the amount of enemies hit by the ability or something along similar terms.
  16. PlagueofToads

    PlagueofToads IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    hmm looks great
  17. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    PPM system solves that issue
  18. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    I've only limited time to play Patch 16 but have they buffed or altered dual-wield in any way? Seems to give me more damage than last patch.
  19. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    No changes were made to dual-wielding, but our easy access to wounding rings made it competitive with two-handers once again in the beta. This is why people should always consider the full list of affixes when they are comparing DW vs. 2H.
  20. Lucas S

    Lucas S IncGamers Member

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    Re: Crit Effects: 2 Handed vs Dual Wielding

    Ah that explains it...I'm enjoying dual-wielding again with two 2-4 damage rings. Thanks bud :)

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