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Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Wolfpaq777, Apr 23, 2012. | Replies: 155 | Views: 15222

  1. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    I'll start by saying I've been a member of this community (ii.net, not incgamers) for a very long time. I remember eagerly anticipating D2 and its expansion a year later LoD. I played the hell out of that game, and had an amazing time doing so. It is easily in my top 5 favorite games of all time. Probably top 3. However, in retrospect there were a lot of problems with it. Problems that seem to be getting completely ignored or, even worse, cited as "great" things about the game as people compare it to D3's beta in their "reviews". I thought I'd go through this list and try to put some of these rumors to rest.

    1. The bartering system of D2 was an amazing way to connect with the community.

    WHAT!?!?! Any time I hear someone praising, or even indirectly praising the D2 trading system I have a strong suspicions that that someone never actually played the game. Do you guys even remember what that hell consisted of? 3rd party sites. Spamming the trade channel. Joining trade games. WUW. WUG. Spam. Scams. Ripoffs. etc etc etc. Anyone who legitimately participated in this knows it was horrible. The D3 auction house is a godsend.

    2. D2 graphics were more dark and gothic

    Again, WHAT?!?!?! I can't believe someone has the cognitive dissonance to block out the entire outdoor areas of FOUR OUT OF FIVE ACTS. We've seen 1/3rd of D3's act 1. The Cathedral is very gothic looking, complete with gargoyles torture scenes and hidden passage ways. If anyone is truly advocating the return of light radius, I don't want to be associated with you. You are a terrible person.

    3a. There was so much to do in D2 games, D3 games are boring

    Excuse me? What D3 games are you referring to exactly? The closed/open beta ones that come to an abrupt end 40 minutes into the game? You are comparing this to 5 full acts from the entirety of D2 and the entirety of its expansion? I'm seriously shocked that I've seen more than 1 person making this "point". It is outrageous, especially given the definitive lack of meaningful things to do in D2 hell games. Pindle, shenk, baal, diablo, meph, rinse repeat. Council, pit, chaos, countess if you're bored. Nephalem Valor Buff > anything from D2 in terms of content encouragement.

    3b. D3's matchmaking system blows, D2's was much better and more friendly

    Ohhh man, if there was ever a statement more capable than #1 on this list of making me think you didn't play D2 this is it. What do you mean D2's was better? Do you remember what joining a public game consisted of? Scan the list hoping that people aren't lying about their titles. Select your game and join it praying that you a) the objective has not yet been completed and b) you manage to join the correct party before they manage to complete it. A huge percentage of public games were known as runs. Baal-1, Chaos-2, Trist-3, Tombs-4, Cows-5 etc etc, which were specialized games meant for maxing xp gain because of the retarded systems that made you reroll every time you got slightly better gear or made a mistake.

    4. D3 is missing D2's magic

    I can't imagine a more ridiculous statement than this. It pretty much translates to "I can't actually think about what it is I enjoy in games, so I'll fall back to a hopelessly generic cliche to get my point across". Terrible.

    Those are just some of the things I've been seeing. Some other massive issues with Diablo 2 that are completely fixed by D3:

    - Terrible crafting system
    - Awful friends list management, very limited in size and scope (multiple accounts per cd key exacerbated the problem)
    - Skill points, synergies, small % of viable end game skills, small # of viable end game builds
    - Characters deleted after 90 days of inactivity
    - LCS (lying character screen)
    - breakpoints (if you played D2 seriously, you know exactly what I'm talking about)
    - no respec, broken characters had to be deleted to be fixed. Inexcusable.
    - loot being first click first get... horrible. Big middle finger to ranged characters as well as many others.

    I probably could go on, I was able to pull all these off the top of my head. D2 was my go to game for half a dozen years, and even for a couple stretches after that, but let's stop pretending like it was the end all be all of fantasy ARPGs. D3 blows it out of the water in every way I just mentioned and some I haven't. It is head and shoulders above any of the copy cats, and soon enough we'll have the sales numbers to prove it (for lack of any other objective measure).
  2. StarEater

    StarEater IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    ....and my zipper is broken on my pants!


    I agree with several of your points, but there's nothing much we can do except complain on twitter, and look where that got us.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
  3. MindGame

    MindGame IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    I completely agree with every point you make but this one. Matter of fact I'm thinking all of these things in my head whenever I read these forums most of the time.

    But I played D2 on and off for 10 years for thousands of hours and my absolute 100% favorite part of the game was trading. Bartering is fun. What trades for what isn't set in stone when there's no real end all currency. You can find one of a kind deals from people looking to move something quick, and dealing in ultra rare items who's value couldn't be easily assessed was always really fun to me. It was a really fun time trying to turn 1 SoJ into 5-10 in a day by playing the market.

    The AH makes an instant exact definition of exactly what every item is worth instantly by searching. To me that's not fun. I had a lot of fun hanging out in trade chat trying to make deals with people.. it was just a good break from constant grinding. D3 won't really have such a break besides PvP.

    I know most people didn't feel this way at all, but I can vouch for the fact that some of us that do played D2 every bit as much as you did.


  4. iAmAhab

    iAmAhab IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    A very good read. Always laugh when people complain about how colourful Diablo 3 is. They obviously never experienced the fruit salads that often inhabited the screen.
  5. Sex

    Sex IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Thanks for the post, I feel the same way to an extent. But as previous members have said, what can we do?
  6. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    1) Valid point. The AH will simplify trading immensely (bartering is time intensive).
    2) Here's a rule of thumb: If a person is mentioning graphics without describing an associated physical symptom (ie headache), then that's person's complaint is at best personal taste. At worst, that person's opinion is less useful than garbage.
    3a) Withholding judgement at the present time.
    3b) Autojoining random games can be useful,but sometimes one does want to join games with a vast level-gap. D2 is better for the latter.
    4) There are some people who over-emphasize their abilities in thinking about what they enjoy. Better to be vaguely right as opposed to specifically wrong.

    -Crafting aka gambling is worse so far. Pending guaranteed stats in late game, they'll be about the same between games.
    - Okay.
    -More like small numbers of people able to break the cookie-cutter molds with actual p. skill or talent.
    -Artifact of multiple accounts leading to unused char spam.
    - LCS not going anywhere. It lies less because it now says less.
    -Not signifcantly changed (I don't expect d3 to handle infinitesimals).
    -See comment about players not breaking molds. Some characters were not actually broken.
    -Valid.


  7. The Magic

    The Magic IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    This was a very well thought out and presented post. Good job.
  8. marshmallow

    marshmallow IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Rose tinted glasses? You can still play Diablo 2. Like, right now.

    And what's wrong with light radius?
  9. yovargas

    yovargas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    I absolutely agree with your overall point but I don't think this one's fair. Art & entertainment can't always be objectively quantified and judged. Sometimes you just don't feel that song/movie/book/painting/game/show/ect. You can tell me 1000 reasons why it's awesome but if you're not feeling it, it doesn't matter. Really, it's hard to explain why a game as enormously flawed as D2 was so fun and enduring. The only real answer: it had that "magic".

    Fortunately, I am very much feeling it. :cloud9:


  10. Doppel

    Doppel Banned

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Reasonable Person: I like the Sun. It provides warmth and light, it brings life to nature.
    Wolfpaq777: WHAT!?!?! Any time i hear someone praising or indirectly praising the Sun i have a strong suspicion that that someone never actually went outside. Do you guys know what happens to you if you look directly in the Sun? You go BLIND. You like being BLIND? How can you visually enjoy nature if you are BLIND? And do you know what happens when you stand too long in the Sun? You get SKIN CANCER, do you know what it's like having SKIN CANCER? It's HELL. The Sun is horrible. Being locked up in a dark and damp cellar is a godsend.

    /thread
  11. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Sure it was fun to try to do that, but along the way SOMEONE had to get ripped off. As fun as it was for you, the market savvy trader, the people getting ripped off were miserable. I know that there were several trades that made me feel uncomfortable afterwards, and someone even caught me with a bait and switch scam once. It's a TERRIBLE feeling. I know I know, I'm a moron for not double checking, but is that really the kind of "fun" we want to encourage? The most fun of all, at least for me personally, was the gradual accumulation of wealth corresponding directly to the hours of play I put in, and now I have a much more direct way of experiencing that without having to worry about the bad trades or the scams or the chance that I could spend 2 hours running hell mephisto and not get anything of value.


    That's entirely my point. You CAN play Diablo 2, RIGHT NOW, and experience every one of these problems, yet the people I'm referencing in my post act like they don't exist.


    My primary issue with light radius is that is is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. If you are a melee class, it doesn't matter what you can't see because you are headed that direction to kill it anyway, and if you are ranged you can fire whatever into the dark and get immediate confirmation whether or not something is there and alter your aim accordingly. If you were being super cautious there were plenty of ways to let something other than you lead the way into the darkness. All the truly dangerous ranged mobs launched their attacks from well off the screen anyway, so having more light radius to detect them was pointless. Finally, it was a tiny minority of the game that actually took light radius into account. All the act bosses and almost all of the super uniques were in environments that were 100% lit. Since bosses and super uniques were 99% of D2 end game, there was no point ever in stacking light radius, and its presence ruined many a rare as well as marring several uniques & runewords.



  12. z00t

    z00t IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Older games tend to have a certain charm that newer games don't. It could be something as simple as the difficulty it took to beat it, even if that difficulty was artificial.

    But yes, I do think it's silly to dislike newer games for not having that particular charm - D3 will have its OWN magic that D2 does not. Possibly, it will be even better. People complain about the lack of horror in D3, but seem to forget that D2 was already so much less scary than D1. If anything, it was D2 that set the precedent for a more 'fantasy action' tone.
  13. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    I'm not wearing rose-tinted glasses, but I'm also not drinking haterade.

    1. Why not have both bartering system and an auction house? D2's trade system would have been flawless if they removed the spams, which is entirely possible given Bnet nowadays. They could have just added an auction house. If something potentially good was broken, address it and fix it. Don't shy away from the problem by changing it through simplification.

    2. I agree (more like I don't care). Light radius was what made D2 feel darker, literally. It was the inability to see past a circle that made things scarier, "more gothic", and crazy monsters sprinting at you out of nowhere. In D3 I can anticipate every move of the monsters because I can see all corners of the room - so that's why people are saying it's PG and ****.

    3a. Again, the broken things could have been fixed, but don't change it or simplify it.

    3b. Again, fix it, but don't skirt the problem by changing the mechanics and/or simplifying it. They could have done both (public list and public matchmaking for the lazy people). Rerolling because of a mistake? Easily fixable so-called "design flaw".

    4. I'm glad you know what you enjoy in games. I do too. I'm just less willing to imply D3 will be my favorite game of all time by writing an essay pointing problems in my second/third most favorite game release.

    We get it. D2 was problematic in some aspects. What do you do with problems? Solve them/fix it (broken recorder...). As you mentioned, they did fix a lot of the problems, but more through changing stuff than actual "upgrading".


    You make some solid *** points though.
  14. Azzure

    Azzure IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    Unfortunately Wolfpaq, nostalgia is a powerful thing.

    It's the same concept of how we as humans look back and say "ahh.. the good old days". When in fact, the good old days sucked at the time. Like when we all say "I wish I was back at school, those were the good days" yet every school kid on earth absolutely hates it, including us at the time.

    Like I've said before, anyone who makes claims similar to the points you are referring to should go spend an hour playing Diablo 2 now. Than they will see that the "magic" they remember of D2 is 80% fantasy and 20% reality. I too, get annoyed when I read people referring to D2 as a holy text of code, faultless and perfect.

    And I am probably one of the biggest D2 fans here.
  15. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    That's why the best solution is to fix the exploits, put in some security measures, but don't take away from the competitiveness by simplifying the games and tuning it for newcomers.



    /repeat



  16. Bowzer

    Bowzer <a href="payments.php">IncGamers Site Pal</a><br>D

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    It's like life, bartering systems worked well for humanity until such a time when money was invented. We found that that was a better way of doing things and progressed forwards as a species.

    Sitting in a trade channel for hours on end trying to spam WTT SOJ for 850 Def + 4 Sock Kraken Armor was a fun mini game at the time, but I would rather use new and more efficient means to trade my goods.

    Certainly this takes away from some of the social aspects of trading, and that is a shame in some ways, but what about the new auction house mini game to add a whole new dynamic? That sounds much more enjoyable than reading spam posts, no?

    Shout outs to Naviaras on mumble for the analogy :p


  17. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    1. The entirety of the D2 trade system has in fact been implemented in D3 (the in game trade menu). I expect impromptu in game bartering to happen regularly when something drops and you'd rather get immediate cash for it than have to deal with the AH & its cut. You can after all link items in chat (yet another MASSIVE improvement from D2). The difference is now everyone has a player driven market to reference and make sure they aren't getting ripped off, and, on the flip side, something to do with the item if they can't find any takers. That is so huge.

    2. Your point here would make sense, except that light radius was irrelevant in every important part of the game. Ooh not that fallen shaman I can't see AHHH... HOW WILL I FIND THAT SKELETAL ARCHER??? But.. chaos sanctuary and diablo? 100% visible. Baal & his superunique minions? All 100% visible. Mephisto & the council? All 100% visible. I mean yeah, if light radius actually was a factor throughout the game I might have a different opinion but seeing as it wasn't, I absolutely hated it. Light radius was the joke affix that no one wanted.



  18. joeb

    joeb Banned

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    The complaint about the game being to bright or not gothic...has some merit. Those things in the cathedral the look like gargoyals...actually are not gargoyles. There is not one pentagram or cross in the game. So while it looks cool...it really is missing something. As far as the colors and new art direction. I found it was actually to dark. So I openned my driver utility and cranked up my monitors brightness to the point my desktop just looks silly. But...in game...it actually looks great. Imo...its probably how it was intended to look and the current build has been seriously darkened due to complaints. I will be honest in this...way to many working streetlights for a world taken over by evil. And one more gripe. There is that something missing on one more area of the game. No light an day cycle. And...no weather. Not sure why...with computers these days...shouldn't be a problem.Ok here is another serious problem...I know hindsight is everything. But 1/3 of act 1 ...outa 4 acts...with 4 difficulty settings...and you hit level 13. Takes a couple minutes of play...and basically your character has reached 25% of its leveling. Im having a hard. time here...but I think most hit level 60 before end of 2nd difficulty. So how are we gonna beat inferno if we are long maxed out of points...50/50 speculation...but I think higher level cap a must.

  19. Andy2702

    Andy2702 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?


    True, but the context is a little off. You mentioned it was a mini-game at the time, which is good because it added depth and complexity and another layer of gaming to a game (lolwording).

    Even in modern society with the internet and whatnot, the methods of trading have changed, but the social aspects behind consumers and merchants is still there. It's just now I have even more choices (again, a plus because that's more depth and more complexity blah blah) to choose from. By your logic, buyers nowadays would never physically meet a seller due to the efficiency of other methods, which I believe is untrue.



  20. edistotiger

    edistotiger IncGamers Member

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    Re: Can we PLEASE take off the rose tinted glasses?

    I agree with a lot of the OP, but i really wish there was a game list.

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