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Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Namtar, May 2, 2012. | Replies: 11 | Views: 11928

  1. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    With most of my characters, I try to solo everything on /players8. Well, I've never done a bone necro. Immunities were never a problem for my summoner (Amplify Damage for the breakable physical immunities and skeletal mages for the unbreakable ones) or too insurmountable for my poison necro (Lower Resist, fire skills from the Trang-Oul's set, Life Tap and beating them up with Grief). So I'm apprehensive about taking a bone necro into Hell. Sure, magic-immune monsters aren't that common, but if I base my skill investment and my gear on getting good damage from my bone spells, there's not a lot left over for handling them.

    I'm wondering if it's possible to have a gear setup that would let me kill magic-immune monsters with a weapon. Relying on AI curse shenanigans or on a merc doesn't appeal to me. I want to be able to, if necessary, walk up to monsters and hit them with a weapon until they die. I guess I want a bone necro that can act as a part-time meleemancer. Viable? Stupid? I have no idea.

    Right now I'm considering Heart of the Oak with a Spirit shield, and then Beast and Stormshield on the switch (with enough dexterity to get max block on the Stormshield, but not on the Spirit). So I could hang back firing Bone Spears and, when I encountered some magic immunities, Life Tap them, turn into a bear, and eat them. I could get a reasonable attack speed and cap my cast rate with this setup. I wouldn't get much in the way of resists, so I'd have to carry a ton of charms, but whatever. I also wouldn't get as many +skills as I might like. Well, really I guess what I'd be doing is sacrificing the boots, gloves, and helm slots for gear that wouldn't be optimal for the bone spells, but that would let me have some melee capability. Worth it? Stupid?

    Perhaps I'm overreacting over a tiny minority of the monsters I'll face?
  2. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    That sounds like a lot of trouble for just a few types of mobs. Are you sure you couldn't stand amp+merc+CEing them?
  3. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Yeah, it does.

    I'm apprehensive about Corpse Explosion as a means of dealing with immunity because it requires corpses as fuel. This would be exacerbated if I'm on /players8 because I'd be more likely to run out of corpses before the immune monsters were killed. Not a problem for the merc though. Which merc would be best?


  4. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    A2 might merc is probably going to be your best bet. I don't know what resources you have available, but given any choice (+RWM) I'd probably stick an EbotD war pike, ebug fort, and 40ed/9str jeweled Guillaume's on him for players 8. That would give him ~33k dps before Amp and chance to hit, assuming perfect gear. Great Poleaxe and Giant Thresher do a bit less damage and at players 8 I'm not sure .5-1 additional chances to proc crushing blow per second will make up for that.

    I'm pretty darned sure this is far more damage than a bear shaped necro (with gear otherwise suited for spear/spirit) can put out. The CE would just be icing on the cake. ~1x players 1 monster health, per cast, spread out among several amped mobs, is probably also still more dps than your necro could do as a bear.


  5. Volren

    Volren IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Yeah messing around with melee setups is pretty unnecessary IMO. The only immunes you'll likely see are the Unravelers and Plague Bearers in Act 2 and Unravelers in WSK.

    Unravelers are easy to deal with as they come with packs of CE fodder - amp the whole bunch, bone spear til one skeleton drops and start exploding. /players8 will make it tougher than single player but all that means is that it will take longer. They're also pretty much completely shut down until you want to deal with them by Dim Vision.

    Plague Bearers are a little tougher but zombies aren't a hard enemy for even a decent merc. You probably won't need something like an eBotD War Pike either, something as simple as an eth elite Insight should do the job so long as you support the merc properly with curses. Worst case is you just dim everything you see and run through the whole Lost City.
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  6. Karth

    Karth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    EbotD war pike+guillaume's+fort merc is always unnecessary and always fun to watch when he goes to town on mobs. :D
  7. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Thread necromancy for a different issue, but this is for the same character, so I thought posting it here would be best...

    I got back to this character and he's really picked up in power. When I started this thread I was still in Act I Normal. But I got Iron Golem in Act II and making an Insight Iron Golem has solved my mana problems completely. And then in Act III I started to equip some twink gear. Mephisto and Diablo were very easy. Right now he's level 42, about halfway through Act V and still dominating, with one rather annoying, although not incredibly dangerous, problem: Blood Mana. It's been so long since I've even seen this curse that I don't know what to do. The first time it came up, it caught me completely by surprise. Do other bone necros run into this problem? It's manageable in Normal, but I obviously don't want to get hit by Blood Mana in Hell.

    I'm guessing that it's some combination of Ume's, Frostburn, SoJ, and Silkweave that's exposing me to Blood Mana. I've used all of those items before, albeit probably never all together on the same character. Any ideas?

    Oh, and I don't know why I never responded to this earlier...

    I have taken other characters through Hell. I know where the magic immune monsters can spawn (including several that you didn't name). I realize that there isn't a 100% chance for them to spawn even when they might show up in some places, but I don't really care because I'll run into them eventually.

    I know that against some magic immune monsters I will run out of corpses.

    Well, I'm hoping not to put a single point into Dim Vision because I hate it. Weird maybe, but yeah. I've never seen the need for Dim Vision on any of my other necros either and does nothing at all against too many monsters. If I really need crowd control, there's always Bone Wall. I realize that some people get a lot of value out of Dim Vision, but I never needed it for my poison necro or my summoner necro (both over level 90). I'm hoping I won't need it for my bone necro either.

    I'm not running past the Lost City because that's not how I play. I'm here to murder demons, not escape from them. If I have to change gear or skills so that I only kill monsters half as fast, that's totally acceptable if it means I get to kill all of them instead of killing 98% of them and running away from the rest. I've never played a single-element sorceress for that reason and it's why I was hesistant to start a bone necro. But I am willing to use a merc, and that eBotD Might merc sounds pretty cool and isn't something I've done before, so I'll probably shoot for that.


  8. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    I have pat'd a bonemancer and magic immunes are the least of his problems. Unless for some reason there's only a bunch of magic immunes and no corpses to explode.

    Bone damage is so bad that for most of the time you will only be using corpse explosion, after getting a few corpses through bone spears or merc. It's really more of a 'CEmancer' than bone. Check out the guide titled 'Explosionmancer' in this forum.
  9. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Yeah, I've read that guide (I'll look again for gear alternatives anyway). From what I can tell, even though the bone spells are woefully underpowered for the skill investment they require (at least that's how I see it in comparison to the two other major magic-damage archetypes I've seen: hammerdins and berserkers), the damage seems adequate even for Hell on /players8. Maybe it would be insufficient untwinked, but I'll be twinking the crap out of this guy. But I'm not necessarily opposed to dumping points in CE either. I've already been making use of it as a one-point wonder. It's not the ultimate mob obliterator that it is on /players1, but it does help. The only necro for whom I've put more than one point into CE so far has been my summoner, and in his case I maxed it. Still a nice one-point skill on my other necromancers. If Bone Spear is too slow at clearing monsters in Nightmare, I'll consider dumping points into CE. For now, I've only just maxed my first bone skill.

    So, has anyone else run into the Blood Mana issue with a bone necro, or am I the only one dumb enough to? My red bubble is starting to catch up as I invest more into vitality. I'm sure I can make a gear change (ditching Silkweave maybe?) or give my necro some vitality charms to solve the problem. But I am curious.


  10. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Bone skills are terribly underpowered. I don't know where you got the idea that it is 'adequate' on Hell p8.
    My twinked bonemancer ( lvl 42 bone spear ) just barely got through A1,A2 on p3 and then on I just set it at p1. I also resisted using CE, and put all points into bone synergies. Even then at times I couldn't help using CE even though it was at 1 pt ( but L20 with +skills ).
    Bonemancer dmg is a joke to be honest. It plays like a wannabe lightning sorc with one fourth the damage and no teleport. When you consider that magic resistances cannot be lowered or immunities broken ( unlike conviction merc ), it's even worse.

    The blood mana problem is because you have more mana than life. Just put a bunch of points into vita and vita charms, it'll be fine.
  11. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    I can tell you where I got the idea! It was from some testing I did where I took a non-bone necro, reset skills and stats with PlugY, threw on some gear that looked like the sort of thing a bone necro would use, and took on the WSK. It wasn't the most incredibly dominant thing I've seen, but if that were reason enough to disregard it, I'd probably be playing nothing but paladins.

    It's unfair, isn't it? Berserkers and hammerdins get far more magic damage with only a few synergies. Bone necros can invest almost all of their skill points into the bone spells and still do less damage. And both berserkers and hammerdins have easy access to physical damage skills that make quick work of any magic immunities they encounter (well, not Uber Baal, but almost anything else drops after several uses of Smite or Concentrate). It seems like if Blizzard had been paying any attention at all, they'd have either increased the base damage of the bone spells, given one of the curses the property of lowering enemy magic resistance, or both. The necromancer gives up most of one of his trees for these skills, and they really are rather lackluster.

    I'm doing it anyway because I'm trying to cover as many major Diablo II build archetypes as I can. Not trying to do every little possibility like a lich lord or mojomancer or various hybrid builds, but I did already finish a summoner and a poison necro and now I'm working on a bone necro and a melee necro. Also, the necromancer is my favorite anyway.

    I know what blood mana is. I only asked about it because I seriously haven't seen it happen to one of my characters in years, including sorceresses with some mana-increasing equipment. I already have every spare stat point invested in vitality (crap block rate, but I won't even worry about trying to get max block for now). My red bubble has been catching up to the blue on though, so it's not a big deal. Yeah, I'll probably just see if I have some halfway decent vita charms lying around.


  12. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bone necromancer vs. magic immunities

    Update. I completed Act 5 Normal at Level 49. When I do get back to this character, it'll be to run the WSK until I'm satisfied with whatever equipment I'll be using for most of Nightmare. But I'm getting back to other characters (also I've been the Median and Eastern Sun mods, which has taken up much of the time I'd normally been using for Diablo II) for now, so I'll probably just let this thread die. Obviously I haven't run into magic immunities yet and don't know for sure how I'll be handling them (leaning toward the hero Act II merc option), but whatever.

    My spear/spirit absolutely devastated everything in Act 5 Normal, although of course that won't be the case for Nightmare or Hell. Blood Mana was annoying, but I solved that problem the same day I made my last post by throwing some Life charms on my necro and later by getting to Level 45 and switching one SoJ for a Ravenfrost. Once that was dealt with the only significant obstacle was that I lost my Insight golem three times, two of them to Baal, which could easily have been avoided if I'd played more competently. I don't know whether to switch to getting the meditation aura on my merc or to soldier on with the Iron Golem method. I mean, I was prepared to potentially lose my golem, but replacing it too often will become annoying. Once I can equip Enigma, I'll be able to save the golem more often, but that won't be for a while...

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